What blend
ethanol in gas...
- Thread starter snownman
- Start date
What blend
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knzee
Well-known member
Sorry for the clueless post...
Here is a clip from CNN Money watch. http://money.cnn.com/2007/01/30/news/economy/corn_ethanol/index.htm
Here is an arcticle on outboard two stroke motors and ethonal.http://www.evinrude-parts.com/boat_ethanol_danger_precaution.html
Not sure where they are getting there information but I have worked around Pure, 100% ethonal and it will eat the chrome plating off end wrenches if they sit in it for only a short period of time. Maybe I need to get better tools. Probably had some chinese brand wrenches.
Sorry, not trying to cause arguement. Just healthy discussion. 
I used to work on a stock car that was made to run on pure alcohol. We drained the carb at the end of each night. They run good when they are set up for it. There are different reasons for running alcohol in race motors. Fuel economy obviously isn't a concern.
When used on the street it is nothing more than a filler used to take up space in the tank. It is like watering down a soda. Many vehicles still on the road are not designed to work with it. Even modern vehicles will start to exhibit issues with the ratio gets too high. Two strokes typically require a 2 jet size increase when running ethanol. That alone will tell you that your fuel mileage will decrease.
Here are some facts just from 2006. It is my understanding that the government subsidies have increased since then.
Another good article.
I used to work on a stock car that was made to run on pure alcohol. We drained the carb at the end of each night. They run good when they are set up for it. There are different reasons for running alcohol in race motors. Fuel economy obviously isn't a concern.
When used on the street it is nothing more than a filler used to take up space in the tank. It is like watering down a soda. Many vehicles still on the road are not designed to work with it. Even modern vehicles will start to exhibit issues with the ratio gets too high. Two strokes typically require a 2 jet size increase when running ethanol. That alone will tell you that your fuel mileage will decrease.
Here are some facts just from 2006. It is my understanding that the government subsidies have increased since then.
Another good article.
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Spaarky
Well-known member
10% or E10 which is in almost every pump in the midwest. We had one of the first ethonal plants in my hometown. Dad worked there part time when they built it. They would dump it straight in his truck. That was back in the early 80's when he first started. It improved his fuel economy and gave him more power.
knzee.... I can pull out a bunch of info from the greenies that say sleddin is bad for the enviroment too, but we dont always believe everything.
The ethanol industry has info to dispute all that info also.
We have ran ethanol in 5-6 different outboards over a 20-25 year period with no problems.
The fact of the matter is, is that engines in everyday cars/trucks are not set up for ethanol... even though they are "flex fuel" vehicles. It has been proven that a motor properly set up, will make more HP and get better fuel mileage running ethanol.
Back to the food subject, it has been proven over and over that the corn price is not driven by ethanol. There is a surplus of corn everyyear. Go out right now and check some bins... there is a lot of corn sitting on farms just waiting for the price to go up. There is a lot of factors to corn price, but South America has a bigger affect on the corn price than ethanol.
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suitcase
Well-known member
I will ask a more direct question, Will there be race fuel? because Oregon has been all ethonal for about a good yr. and a half. You can not put non blended fuel in your cars anymore. There is only just a few place you can get non blended fuel, and it is ordered in by the small station owners. Will that change? Will the manufaturing of non blended fuel stop or will it still be made but should at a much higher price? These are the questions I have. I don't care about corn supplies, africa, taxes, or groceries. Can I get non blended fuel or race fuel at a price?
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knzee
Well-known member
I guess in the end it dosen't matter much what any of us think or want about ethonal. Whatever the govt. wants to mandate for amounts and usage is what we are going to have to run...I don't know much about the price of corn anymore. I grew up on a pretty good sized family ranch in central Montana but decided to go a different route. Back in 2005-2006 was when the big ethonal kick came around here. That year when the family sold the yearlings the price to finish them off in feedlots was up considerable from the previous years and the "Rich Farmers" were loving every minute of it. They were selling corn for ethonal and raising the cost on ranchers to fatten beef due to shortage of corn that year. So it may not effect the price of food now but at one point it did.
I guess if your dad ran straight ethonal in his vehicles for years and years without problems it can't be all bad...wonder why we don't "set" cars up to run on straight ethonal and go away with the big oil companies? And the big oil companies are not the ones pushing for this ethonal blended fuel because they do not make ethonal. they are losing 10% profit on every gallon sold. Now 1 out of every 10 gallons is ethonal. So, lets say we sell 7500bbls of product (gasoline) at our Billings terminal. The ethonal companies are selling 31,500 gallons of ethonal a day. Sounds like a pretty good gig since in the end it is just a filler and you don't even notice a difference in milage or power loss...according to some...
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knzee
Well-known member
Suitcase69, I will quiz some of our white collars at our refinery in Billings and see what they think.
As I stated earlier. At least in MN there are more pumps showing up stating they are a non oxygenated fuel. Prior to this we had been 10% in everything for quite awhile. So there is hope for better access to non oxygenated fuels nation wide. It is available. So, if the 10% was working so good why would they bring back non oxygenated at select pumps? Again, I'm not trying to argue a point, but my own personal experience tells me on quite a few different levels that ethanol isn't what they are claiming it to be.
The sad thing is that the US government isn't really giving us a choice in the matter. They are forcing it down our throats whether we like it or not. And they are going to tax us more for it. If you believe in ethanol or not, you should be able to make that choice at the pump. Not have it forced on you by whomever has the best lobbyists.
As for race fuel. We saw the price take a big hike when standard fuel prices did. They are dictated by base stock availability just like everyone else. I don't see these fuels going away at all. Companies like VP even offer oxygenated fuels, but they aren't using ethanol.
Guys, it pays to understand all the things corn is used for. If you have pets it is likely that corn is used as a filler in their food. Corn is used to feed most farm animals. It is used as carbohydrate fillers in many sports drinks and protein powders. It is in many of the foods you eat every day. It is documented that the price per bushel has increased. The price of these products have increased. Tortillia chip prices have increased. I'm not the one who decides this and I certainly am not making it up. There is a very long list of things causing this that was documented in the prior links. Everything from the government subsidies and increased taxes to shipping costs and supply and demand.
A bin full of corn can simply be there to feed a farmers cattle. It isn't an indication that we have an excess of corn. And if it is, then you better talk with your congressman and ask him why the price of corn is so high.
Please don't take my comments the wrong way. I would gladly run ethanol fuels if it made sense for me to do so. My vehicle gets way worse mpg with it so it doesn't make financial sense. My 4 stroke dirtbike gums up and starts poorly with it so it doesn't make sense. It doesn't even make sense for me to run it in my lawn mower. It would make more sense to convert my truck to propane.
I just don't see ethanol as the long term answer. Nor is battery power, but I do think they need to be looking at alternatives to the internal combustion engine.
Great discussion guys.
I just did a search for "current corn prices". And this is what I found. You cannot tell me that ethanol isn't the driving machine for corn prices. for comparison 2005-06 corn was 2$ a bushel. Peaked huge in 08 with some Iowa floods at $7.88.
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Spaarky
Well-known member
http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmgmt/Ethanol_and_food_prices_UNL_Perrin_08.pdf
we can do this all day long... there is going to be info to back both sides...
Yes, but most farmers arent stupid. They will sit on corn/grain until the price goes up. I have heard of farmers sitting on grain for 10-15 years. There is a surplus of corn into the millions of bushels every year.
this is probably the best thing I have read in this thread.......
we can do this all day long... there is going to be info to back both sides...
Yes, but most farmers arent stupid. They will sit on corn/grain until the price goes up. I have heard of farmers sitting on grain for 10-15 years. There is a surplus of corn into the millions of bushels every year.
this is probably the best thing I have read in this thread.......
This really is a great thread. 
I appreciate everyone keeping a level head and presenting some good facts on both sides. These are the nice discussions where people can become more informed and make decisions based on what has been presented.
I agree we can keep going back and forth forever.
People are always going to have varying opinions based on different experiences and demographics of where you live. In the end we all love snowmobiling.
I appreciate everyone keeping a level head and presenting some good facts on both sides. These are the nice discussions where people can become more informed and make decisions based on what has been presented. I agree we can keep going back and forth forever.
People are always going to have varying opinions based on different experiences and demographics of where you live. In the end we all love snowmobiling.
So what say the masses and the corn folks to the thought that corn is about as inefficent as you can get for making ethanol? Seems funny that our government would push the least efficent method out there. Especially when you consider all the biomass that lumber yards make, sugar can or the holy grail of algea....which out produces corn per acre by a number I want to say in the 10k range.
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Spaarky
Well-known member
not to change the subject, but I dont know if it was in the same bill or not. I heard that Obama signed a bill that by 2014 all diesel fleet vehicles go back to pre-tier 4 motors, believe thats what you would call it, or low emissions diesel?
Anyone heard the same? and suppose it will make it into trucks, tractors and other equipment?
Anyone heard the same? and suppose it will make it into trucks, tractors and other equipment?
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knzee
Well-known member
yeah, we got wind of that a while ago. Last I heard he was setting a standard that all over the highway diesel motors must produce a certain MPG and not to exceed a certain level of emissions... Not sure what they are going to be shooting for though. I guess more power to 'em. If they can produce power or more power with lower emissions and better mpg that would be great. Usually seems to drive the price up for buying a new rig though.
im glad...
i started this thread. i also have run alcohol (straight) in drag bikes and quads (2 stroke) and it works well when tuned properly, BUT when you run it you do shorten engine life. you must drain the fuel system daily, and purge the engine heavily with a lubricant such as wd40 or equivalent to HELP the crank seals, internal carb. componets, etc. from being dried out and eaten up as fast. everyone has their opinions but my experience is that alcohol IS harder on certain engine componets and there is higher fuel consumption with alcohol.
i started this thread. i also have run alcohol (straight) in drag bikes and quads (2 stroke) and it works well when tuned properly, BUT when you run it you do shorten engine life. you must drain the fuel system daily, and purge the engine heavily with a lubricant such as wd40 or equivalent to HELP the crank seals, internal carb. componets, etc. from being dried out and eaten up as fast. everyone has their opinions but my experience is that alcohol IS harder on certain engine componets and there is higher fuel consumption with alcohol.
Perhaps in pure form.
E10 however will not have any negative effects on modern engines and E85 will not have any negative effects on E85 ready vehicles.
Certainly will NOT shorten engine life, in fact it burns considerably cleaner and has a higher octane content which will prevent knocking.
As far as cost effectiveness.....
Locally regular gas is $2.79
E85 is $1.89
Let's say your pickup gets 14 MPG running regular gas.
If you get 9.5 MPG or better with E85 it is cost effective.
Makes sense to me.
I re-read this post & now I'm confused also!!
What is this gum & ethanol sludge you refer to?
Oh wait I think I know what you're refering to.
Ethanol is such a good cleaning agent that it can clean the deposits accumulated in your system from years of burning regular gasoline.
This is actually a very common inconvenience experienced when using ethanol. (that is if you want to call cleaning the gunk out of your fuel system an "inconvenience")
Here's a tip....
If you regularly run E10 this sludge will not develope in the first place.
E85 will not have any negative effects on E85 ready vehicles.
then what was the deal with hard and rough starts and killing in my e85 flex fuel Ford also kept setting off code? In temps that that were 50 and above?
Just curious as I consider rough starts in a car that at the time was 5 years old to be a negative....especially when resetting the the computer and running regular gas.
then what was the deal with hard and rough starts and killing in my e85 flex fuel Ford also kept setting off code? In temps that that were 50 and above?
Just curious as I consider rough starts in a car that at the time was 5 years old to be a negative....especially when resetting the the computer and running regular gas.
Sorry, not trying to cause arguement. Just healthy discussion.
I used to work on a stock car that was made to run on pure alcohol. We drained the carb at the end of each night. They run good when they are set up for it. There are different reasons for running alcohol in race motors. Fuel economy obviously isn't a concern.
When used on the street it is nothing more than a filler used to take up space in the tank. It is like watering down a soda. Many vehicles still on the road are not designed to work with it. Even modern vehicles will start to exhibit issues with the ratio gets too high. Two strokes typically require a 2 jet size increase when running ethanol. That alone will tell you that your fuel mileage will decrease.
Here are some facts just from 2006. It is my understanding that the government subsidies have increased since then.
Another good article.
You are talking about methanol in the race car not ethanol, same as the guy who says it will take chrome off tools. I worked in the fuel industry until about 1997 and there are so many incorrect opinions on the blends of fuels that there isn't enough time in the day to address them all. That being said the only reason they use it is that the mandated EPA regs in effect now will require the use of oxygenated fuel and MTBE was shown to contaminate the groundwater, so ethanol it will be. unless the automobiles makers make some new advancement in engine technology it is something we will have to live with. Obama didn't start this it has been in the works since the first bush administration. As said before -- flame away!!
