Ethanol Debate The good the bad?
- Thread starter JustinB
- Start date
Folks, ethanol is and always has been about one thing - the US political system.
One of the excesses of democracy as we exercise it. Allow a lobby strong enough to put huge monies in reelection coffers, and a state that both grows corn and, because it primaries first, have the greatest single impact on a nationwide election, and you get ethanol.
The rest of the noise is just that, noise. The science proves ethanol is a snipe hunt, doing nothing to reduce the import of oil (like it or not, Canada is the largest exporter to the US, Mexico second, and the ragheads a distant third). You are not denying a muslim anything through ethanol. The EPA has power only because the politicians gave it to them, not you. Cut off the flow of money and power, and gasohol will go back to where it came from, but not before.
One of the excesses of democracy as we exercise it. Allow a lobby strong enough to put huge monies in reelection coffers, and a state that both grows corn and, because it primaries first, have the greatest single impact on a nationwide election, and you get ethanol.
The rest of the noise is just that, noise. The science proves ethanol is a snipe hunt, doing nothing to reduce the import of oil (like it or not, Canada is the largest exporter to the US, Mexico second, and the ragheads a distant third). You are not denying a muslim anything through ethanol. The EPA has power only because the politicians gave it to them, not you. Cut off the flow of money and power, and gasohol will go back to where it came from, but not before.
ethenol is good and bad yes it does pull water. I will not run it in my sleds but i do run it in my 4 wheelers and pickups. Come to south dakota and you will find 9 out of 10 farms are not big coop. I work for a farmer that runs 15000 acres all family owned. I run 500 acres the land has been in my family for over 100 years. That is how it is around here.
Harvest of Data that Shows Agriculture’s Value
Get the facts about Iowa agriculture ...
•Iowa ranks first in the nation in corn and soybean production.
•Iowa pork producers raise 28% of all U.S. pork.
•Hamburger from a single steer will make about 720 quarter-pound hamburgers.
•The average size of an Iowa farm is around 333 acres (as of 2008).
•One acre is about the size of a football field without its end zones.
•A bushel of corn can sweeten 400 cans of soda, make 38 boxes of corn flakes or produce more than 2.5 gallons of ethanol.
•Your body cannot tell the difference between sugar and high fructose corn syrup made from corn, nor is one “healthier” for you than the other.
•Iowa has at least 11,000 different soils that make up some of the richest, most productive land in the world.
•Iowa produces 25% of the country’s supply of ethanol, twice as much as any other state.
•Studies show without ethanol, Americans would pay 20 to 40 cents more per gallon of gasoline.
•Iowa produces the second most wind energy in the nation, helping generate enough electricity to power several hundred thousand homes each year.
•Iowa’s agricultural products from all sources were worth $20.5 billion in 2007.
•Livestock consume 400 million bushels of Iowa-grown corn annually.
•90% of all Iowa crop land is farmed using some form of conservation practice.
•Conservation methods have reduced wind and water erosion on American crop land by more than a third even in the last 20 years even as yields have more than quadrupled. (USDA & National Corn Growers Association)
•Iowa’s climate is ideal for growing crops. Hot summers help plants grow and cold winters help the soil replenish itself.
•The average American farmer feeds about 155 people worldwide. In 1960 that number was 25.6.
•98% of all U.S. farms are family owned.
•All U.S. eggs are antibiotic-free.
•Milk is routinely tested to make sure antibiotics stay out of the milk supply.
•All milk contains naturally occurring hormones, even organic.
•Your body needs protein for nearly everything it does. Protein is needed to build and repair our muscles, to make our hair and skin, to fight against infections and to carry oxygen in our blood. Proteins are made up of building blocks called amino acids. There are about twenty different amino acids, and your body can actually make some of them. There are nine amino acids, however, that your body can't make. These are called essential amino acids and the only way to get them is through the food you eat. Some forms of protein grown and raised in Iowa include meat, eggs and milk.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Each year, Iowa farmers produce approximately ...
•8.2 million turkeys
•148,000 pounds of cheese
•3.8 million cattle
•1,230 million pounds of wool
•2.1 billion bushels of corn
•13.8 billion eggs
•4.13 billion pounds of milk
•17.3 million hogs
•235,000 sheep
•525 million bushels of soybeans
---------- Just a little info pulled from the Iowa Farm Bureau site. One sided?? maybe...but I think it's still pretty close. I try not to use the ethanol in my small motors, but have used it when needed. Been running in the autos for 15 yrs, have yet to have any fuel problems.
Get the facts about Iowa agriculture ...
•Iowa ranks first in the nation in corn and soybean production.
•Iowa pork producers raise 28% of all U.S. pork.
•Hamburger from a single steer will make about 720 quarter-pound hamburgers.
•The average size of an Iowa farm is around 333 acres (as of 2008).
•One acre is about the size of a football field without its end zones.
•A bushel of corn can sweeten 400 cans of soda, make 38 boxes of corn flakes or produce more than 2.5 gallons of ethanol.
•Your body cannot tell the difference between sugar and high fructose corn syrup made from corn, nor is one “healthier” for you than the other.
•Iowa has at least 11,000 different soils that make up some of the richest, most productive land in the world.
•Iowa produces 25% of the country’s supply of ethanol, twice as much as any other state.
•Studies show without ethanol, Americans would pay 20 to 40 cents more per gallon of gasoline.
•Iowa produces the second most wind energy in the nation, helping generate enough electricity to power several hundred thousand homes each year.
•Iowa’s agricultural products from all sources were worth $20.5 billion in 2007.
•Livestock consume 400 million bushels of Iowa-grown corn annually.
•90% of all Iowa crop land is farmed using some form of conservation practice.
•Conservation methods have reduced wind and water erosion on American crop land by more than a third even in the last 20 years even as yields have more than quadrupled. (USDA & National Corn Growers Association)
•Iowa’s climate is ideal for growing crops. Hot summers help plants grow and cold winters help the soil replenish itself.
•The average American farmer feeds about 155 people worldwide. In 1960 that number was 25.6.
•98% of all U.S. farms are family owned.
•All U.S. eggs are antibiotic-free.
•Milk is routinely tested to make sure antibiotics stay out of the milk supply.
•All milk contains naturally occurring hormones, even organic.
•Your body needs protein for nearly everything it does. Protein is needed to build and repair our muscles, to make our hair and skin, to fight against infections and to carry oxygen in our blood. Proteins are made up of building blocks called amino acids. There are about twenty different amino acids, and your body can actually make some of them. There are nine amino acids, however, that your body can't make. These are called essential amino acids and the only way to get them is through the food you eat. Some forms of protein grown and raised in Iowa include meat, eggs and milk.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Each year, Iowa farmers produce approximately ...
•8.2 million turkeys
•148,000 pounds of cheese
•3.8 million cattle
•1,230 million pounds of wool
•2.1 billion bushels of corn
•13.8 billion eggs
•4.13 billion pounds of milk
•17.3 million hogs
•235,000 sheep
•525 million bushels of soybeans
---------- Just a little info pulled from the Iowa Farm Bureau site. One sided?? maybe...but I think it's still pretty close. I try not to use the ethanol in my small motors, but have used it when needed. Been running in the autos for 15 yrs, have yet to have any fuel problems.
Back to pros/cons of ethanol
I think part of the issue is the powersports industry is lagging behind in terms of how they engineer for this amount of ethanol.
Two strokes are finiky enough on 100% straight gas........
Now add ethanol which scrubs the cylinders and crank bearings and makes lubrication more difficult.
When you mess with the properties of lubrication, you will have issues......
Four strokes do not suffer as much from this as their two stroke cousin does.
I think part of the issue is the powersports industry is lagging behind in terms of how they engineer for this amount of ethanol.
Two strokes are finiky enough on 100% straight gas........
Now add ethanol which scrubs the cylinders and crank bearings and makes lubrication more difficult.
When you mess with the properties of lubrication, you will have issues......
Four strokes do not suffer as much from this as their two stroke cousin does.
Oh my goodness.
ha ha... I like how we feed corn to cows too.
I can't wait till I can breath corn. Then the circle will be complete...
corn on the cob is good, corn in my gas tank is ok, corn in almost EVERY PROCESSED FOOD is disgusting and is a big problem.
tid bits...
Some info from one of my Micro Econ books.
*Congressional mandate for 9 billion gallons of ethanol to be blended into gasoline in the US in 2008.
*A 51 cent federal government subsidy to US oil refiners for every gallon of ethanol blended with gasoline; and the signing into law in 2007 by Pres. GWB of an energy bill to increase US production of renewable motor fuels, such as ethanol, fivefold to 36 billion gallons by 2022.
That will equal about 18.36 billion in subsidies per year to oil refiners.
*Demand for corn by food and biofuel industries pushed the price of grain from about $2 to $3 a bushel, to an 11 year high of $5 per bushel by early 2008.
The price increase came despite a record 13 billion bushel corn crop in 2007.
24 percent of which went to ethanol production (up from 14% in 2005).
*Economic models predict zero economic profits made by the various producers as the prices of inputs, such as farmland, get bid up to reflect the opportunity costs.
*The original owners of inputs whose prices are bid up do recieve a permanent gain, provided that corn is an increasing cost industry.
*The average price of Iowa farm land has increased by 57% between 2002 and 2007. And another 20% between 2007 and 2008 (from $4200 up to $5,000 per acre).
Some info from one of my Micro Econ books.
*Congressional mandate for 9 billion gallons of ethanol to be blended into gasoline in the US in 2008.
*A 51 cent federal government subsidy to US oil refiners for every gallon of ethanol blended with gasoline; and the signing into law in 2007 by Pres. GWB of an energy bill to increase US production of renewable motor fuels, such as ethanol, fivefold to 36 billion gallons by 2022.
That will equal about 18.36 billion in subsidies per year to oil refiners.
*Demand for corn by food and biofuel industries pushed the price of grain from about $2 to $3 a bushel, to an 11 year high of $5 per bushel by early 2008.
The price increase came despite a record 13 billion bushel corn crop in 2007.
24 percent of which went to ethanol production (up from 14% in 2005).
*Economic models predict zero economic profits made by the various producers as the prices of inputs, such as farmland, get bid up to reflect the opportunity costs.
*The original owners of inputs whose prices are bid up do recieve a permanent gain, provided that corn is an increasing cost industry.
*The average price of Iowa farm land has increased by 57% between 2002 and 2007. And another 20% between 2007 and 2008 (from $4200 up to $5,000 per acre).
That would seem to suggest this is a unsustainable goverment subsidized nightmare! Cuz If I do the math and 9 billion gallons was 24 % of a good crop year then the 36 billion will be 96% of the entire crop. There may be a problem with that.
Some interesting points.
Many arguable points though too.
Keep in mind that every article, study or publication etc is written with a point of view.
With that point of view, one can sift through the facts, keeping the facts that support the point of view while discarding the facts that contradict the point of view.
Example: the notion that we are starving the world by using grain to produce fuel.
Fact: we still pay farmers to keep land out of production......there is no shortage of grain, and this may not sound PC, but we really do not want an over abundance of grain either.
Should ethanol be subsidized?
Absolutely not in a true open market.
We will never have a true open market, unfortunately.
These subsidies have contributed to the increase in land value, no doubt.
In my opinion, land value is artificially high and will fall slightly in the next decade. (it may not actually fall, but will not keep pace with inflation)
Much like it was undervalued in the 80's early 90's.
Ag land & commodities are cyclical.
As good as it is now, I remember growing up it sucked.....low prices for our products, high fuel prices, high interest rates & my parents have seen the good & bad come & go since the 30's & their parents before that.
The question at hand....Should we end ethanol (or all farm subsidies)?
Sure, if we can guarantee a truly free market without govt manipulation.
If we do that, let's also stop all subsidies to anyone & everyone,foreign aid, welfare, medicare along with all wasteful govt spending.
Many arguable points though too.
Keep in mind that every article, study or publication etc is written with a point of view.
With that point of view, one can sift through the facts, keeping the facts that support the point of view while discarding the facts that contradict the point of view.
Example: the notion that we are starving the world by using grain to produce fuel.
Fact: we still pay farmers to keep land out of production......there is no shortage of grain, and this may not sound PC, but we really do not want an over abundance of grain either.
Should ethanol be subsidized?
Absolutely not in a true open market.
We will never have a true open market, unfortunately.
These subsidies have contributed to the increase in land value, no doubt.
In my opinion, land value is artificially high and will fall slightly in the next decade. (it may not actually fall, but will not keep pace with inflation)
Much like it was undervalued in the 80's early 90's.
Ag land & commodities are cyclical.
As good as it is now, I remember growing up it sucked.....low prices for our products, high fuel prices, high interest rates & my parents have seen the good & bad come & go since the 30's & their parents before that.
The question at hand....Should we end ethanol (or all farm subsidies)?
Sure, if we can guarantee a truly free market without govt manipulation.
If we do that, let's also stop all subsidies to anyone & everyone,foreign aid, welfare, medicare along with all wasteful govt spending.
I agree, keep your articles point of view in mind.
The particular chapter I took that info from was focusing on Profit maximization in perfectly competitive markets, and three classifications of the long-run industry supply curve. Some info was likely left out in an effort to introduce a concept regarding an increasing cost industry, and the reponse of the long-run supply curve.
There are many many variables that go into these things and each needs to be weighed and prioritized.
As far as farm subsidies go. Unfortunately, if we stop all farm subsidies we as consumers may not like where the new prices, (market equilibrium) lands.
Which is exactly why the US govt continues to control the market.
The reason given by the EPA to mandate oxygenated gasoline (ethanol included) is for reasons of emissions...
Ethanol does not reduce the emissions that it was included for in the first place... in the real world with the broad spectrum of vehicle years, types, uses, fuel-storage, etc etc.
IMO... Keep it out.
I'm sincerely interested to know if any of those in favor above are farmers or suppliers to farms or others that supply the Ethanol corn industry.
Also, wondering why the Corn-ethanol lobby is fighting so hard to keep cellulose based ethanol if they are so "pro-environment/domestic-supply" pushing??
Ethanol does not reduce the emissions that it was included for in the first place... in the real world with the broad spectrum of vehicle years, types, uses, fuel-storage, etc etc.
IMO... Keep it out.
I'm sincerely interested to know if any of those in favor above are farmers or suppliers to farms or others that supply the Ethanol corn industry.
Also, wondering why the Corn-ethanol lobby is fighting so hard to keep cellulose based ethanol if they are so "pro-environment/domestic-supply" pushing??
I don't have time to waste reading all the bs in this thread,
On the engine side of things, ethanol does not perform and create the same amount of power, E85 also get worse miles per gallon than 87 in e85 vehicles and has less power. Because of the use of ethanol in gas when refining it they can get away with more trash in the gas like water because the ethanol blends water with gas, ethanol fuels will break down in a matter of days, much quicker. So you add a dryer fuel source and contamination to fuels and it will eat at the metal a lot faster. But if a engine stays running it will have little effect other than less hp, but when shut down for long periods of time the water and contaminants start doing what they do and plug up and corrode the mechanical part. years ago I say vehicles with old fuel in them sit for 5+years and then started and ran with very little cleaning, same vehicles sit for less than 1 year and having to tear down the fuel system completely with some ruined parts.
Now for the real BS, ethanol is subsidized, if it really was going to help farmers the economy or what ever don't you think it would pay for itself, subsidies should last all of about 2 years to give the farmers time to get the heII out of that product and figure out a new source of how to make money, not tax payers covering a failed market. I know this statement gets the farmers pi$$ed but no one is helping out my business and I have had to change the way I do things to keep up with the times, these days they are doing things to destroy my business and I have to adapt in days not years.
It is big government, epa, global warming BS that drives this market, More and more lately more are against ethanol becuase it takes the corn out of the food market and is driving the price of food up causing shortages in places like mexico. That is not alternative energy but rather a shift in it, use it here but starve it over there. You want alternative energy look to hydrogen and nuclear. People complaining about big corps making the money in some other country, if it wasn't for the ridiculous EPA and big Gov. those businesses would be here spreading the wealth. The oil market will never leave until we run out, they just use it as an excuse to drive up the profit and taxes for the government.
On the engine side of things, ethanol does not perform and create the same amount of power, E85 also get worse miles per gallon than 87 in e85 vehicles and has less power. Because of the use of ethanol in gas when refining it they can get away with more trash in the gas like water because the ethanol blends water with gas, ethanol fuels will break down in a matter of days, much quicker. So you add a dryer fuel source and contamination to fuels and it will eat at the metal a lot faster. But if a engine stays running it will have little effect other than less hp, but when shut down for long periods of time the water and contaminants start doing what they do and plug up and corrode the mechanical part. years ago I say vehicles with old fuel in them sit for 5+years and then started and ran with very little cleaning, same vehicles sit for less than 1 year and having to tear down the fuel system completely with some ruined parts.
Now for the real BS, ethanol is subsidized, if it really was going to help farmers the economy or what ever don't you think it would pay for itself, subsidies should last all of about 2 years to give the farmers time to get the heII out of that product and figure out a new source of how to make money, not tax payers covering a failed market. I know this statement gets the farmers pi$$ed but no one is helping out my business and I have had to change the way I do things to keep up with the times, these days they are doing things to destroy my business and I have to adapt in days not years.
It is big government, epa, global warming BS that drives this market, More and more lately more are against ethanol becuase it takes the corn out of the food market and is driving the price of food up causing shortages in places like mexico. That is not alternative energy but rather a shift in it, use it here but starve it over there. You want alternative energy look to hydrogen and nuclear. People complaining about big corps making the money in some other country, if it wasn't for the ridiculous EPA and big Gov. those businesses would be here spreading the wealth. The oil market will never leave until we run out, they just use it as an excuse to drive up the profit and taxes for the government.
That would seem to suggest this is a unsustainable goverment subsidized nightmare! Cuz If I do the math and 9 billion gallons was 24 % of a good crop year then the 36 billion will be 96% of the entire crop. There may be a problem with that.
I guess alot of people must not realize that the grain that is left after distilation is used as feed. It is call DDG (dried distiller's grain & not cheap). So you still use the corn as cattle feed. Some of the nutrients are used making corn syrup or ethanol but over half of the feed value is still there.
