Ethanol Debate The good the bad?
- Thread starter JustinB
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happyhour
Member
some info for your project
http://www.growthenergy.org/news-me...tm_medium=energy-exclusive&utm_campaign=10-19
http://www.growthenergy.org/news-me...tm_medium=energy-exclusive&utm_campaign=10-19
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JustinB
Well-known member
Im looking for why is it bad or how it could be good. How is the growthenergy group misleading or leading the fight. What are the proven results. Could it be good at all. One of my points of view is based around the powersports industries and how we are being over looked the problem is I can only state facts I cant take a side till my next paper. This will end up being my final and a paper worth a 1000 points and being 20 pages at a minimum. so any info really is good info because I am going to end up arguing against it and proving my side by the end of the paper.
That is a good propaganda site for PAC's pushing large commercial agri farming importance.
In making this relevant to "General Snowmobile" issues (topic of this forum)... I have not met one single sled manufacturer that has said that the performance of their sled is made better though they have all had negative things to say and advise owners to use non-ethanol fuel where available.
And the main focus should not be the lab testing of the fuel, but real world implementation issues in storage, moisture accumulation, actual pollution in units of miles/hours driven, use in vehicles not designed for the fuel though admittedly some are. (MOST of the vehicles on our roads today are not designed to run on this)
The total cost of Ethanol insertion into the fuel system (processing, refinement, transportation, blending etc) , the drain on our taxes by subsidizing this fuel source, impact on food sources, impact on farming and the increased use of pesticides....more money for Monsanto who makes the pesticide... engineers the corn to be more pesticide resistant
in a product that does NOT have the health issues weighed in on as Food corn.... They stand to make HUGE profits if this goes further... their money is squarely behind Lobbying for the increase in requirements for ethanol inclusion.
http://www.salon.com/technology/how_the_world_works/2007/03/26/triple_stacked_hybrids
When you look further into the topic, please look at the source, their corporate and political affiliations etc. Evaluate the source and the motives for the presentation.
IMO, what it boils down to is our MEGA Agri-Industry getting their foot in the door of a material that we all need in our internal combustion engine facilitated society...For our country to work as it is organized today, we NEED (as opposed to want) fuel...The agri business is trying desperately to get in on this "addiction" and using whatever they can to lobby the cause.
Even further is the argument and battle between the crop and cellulose Ethanol and how hard the crop ethanol lobby groups are working against use of cellulose based ethanol.
The major Industrial lobby groups supporting corn fuel are also pushing for MASS use of GMO (Genetically Modified Organism) and the insertion into our farming backbone... without really evaluating the long term effects.
The head of the Lobby group "Growth Energy" is Retired Gen Wesley Clarke.
Here is another counter-article to the "Growth Energy" presentation from the equally biased, though 180 degrees in the opposite direction, lobby group.
http://www.energytribune.com/articles.cfm?aid=1623
I'd like to see a less biased, more objective evaluation of this and not a scenario of who can lobby more and pay more PAC money. That is the very thing, IMO, that is tearing our country apart at the seams these days.
A more neutral presentation that looks at the pros and cons.
Some other good reading.
http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/technologies_and_fuels/biofuels/the-truth-about-ethanol.html
I'm tired of seeing the wack-job "spin doctors" on both sides wielding so much influence on our country and would like to see more voice of reason in our country and the presentations that shape the beliefs of those that choose to not "dig deeper" when looking at a presentation.
Again,... EVALUTE THE SOURCE AND THEN DECIDE IF THE INFO PRESENTED IS VALUABLE OR NOT.
I hope this doesn't come to be... But the lobby groups and Pac's would probably like it.
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Even the Treehuggers are pushing back against the Ethanol PAC's
California.. the "Left Coast" is even fighting ethanol... that shows you that all is not as it may appear.
California.. the "Left Coast" is even fighting ethanol... that shows you that all is not as it may appear.
So we don't confuse this topic... Ethanol is a BIG MONEY issue NOT an environmental issue....that BOTH Republican and Democrat are pushing hard to get approved.
Many will point that this is one thing that the two parties can agree on... so it must be good.... Dig deeper and you will find the truth here.
Many will point that this is one thing that the two parties can agree on... so it must be good.... Dig deeper and you will find the truth here.
Here is the economic trend that concerns me more than anything else..........
Our biggest export has become cash.
How long do you think we can keep treading water when we export more money than we import?
We want cheap clothing, electronics, toys etc so we've sold out our fellow American workers to save a few bucks.
We export more money to quench our thirst for fuel than anything else.
We need to A - convert more & more of our fuel usage to biofuels &
B - Drill here & use our own oil
I simply don't under****inget why so many are hell bent on sending their money to our foreign enemies.
Our biggest export has become cash.
How long do you think we can keep treading water when we export more money than we import?
We want cheap clothing, electronics, toys etc so we've sold out our fellow American workers to save a few bucks.
We export more money to quench our thirst for fuel than anything else.
We need to A - convert more & more of our fuel usage to biofuels &
B - Drill here & use our own oil
I simply don't under****inget why so many are hell bent on sending their money to our foreign enemies.
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happyhour
Member
you say ethanol is big money, I will agree with you on that but the money stays here we pay taxes it helps support are community's and are nation it also helps support new and better means making it . you say its not a environmental issue, I be curious to see what the fisherman down in the gulf feel about that ! I hope both rep and dems are pushing for ethanol I guess I am. does it have its place yes it does at this time but with more technology and innovations hey this stuff will be the answer imo.
here is what Exxon payed for taxes in 2009 http://blogs.forbes.com/energysource/2010/04/05/big-oils-tax-bill/
like mafesto I simply don't under****inget why so many are hell bent on sending their money to our foreign enemies.
I ask mountainhorse would you like to see people support your home town and buy locally as well as your neighbors buy and deal with you locally or would you rather them go buy from someone long ways away and not support your community not trying to put you on the spot in any means just the way for me to put it into perspective I am definitely not calling you out nor am i wanting a answer back from you but at least look at it from this angle once. thanks happyhour
Mountain Horse's post got me thinking. Off subject here, but Monsanto is one evil, evil company and their genetically modified organisms (GMO's) such as corn, soybean and sugar beats are a huge cause of concern for our health and especially the health of our children. There have been studies in rats showing that genetically engineered corn has caused complete reproductive failure by the 3rd or 4th generation. Do some research, it will make you reconsider your diet.
Now
Now
MTN,
I am neither for or against GMO's, but realize "lab tests" are not always accurate in their intentions. I once read a report where we were all going to die because a rat died on a peanut butter diet. Could it have been that it was laid on a little thick?
The biggest reason I think ethanol is a crock is I see first hand how much diesel is burned to ship in the seed, prepare the field, plant the field, irrigate the field, cultivate the field, harvest the field, ship the crop, store the crop, make the ethanol, store the ethanol, ship the ethanol.
The year our big ethanol plant came to town none of us could get the fuel we needed to finish our farm year. We switched from less fuel intense crops to a more intense crop.
Our dairys crashed because corn and straw prices tripled. You would think I would be excited as a seller, except the ethanol crop paid me pennies, while crashing a market that had previously paid me dollars. Food prices also experienced an increase, which lowered demand.
As a Farmer, there are three things I want to do.
1. Earn a Living to provide for my Family
2. Provide food for the world at a price that keeps me profitable without driving them to other cheaper alternatives.
3. Preserve the ability for my family to continue this practice as long as they Desire. (I'm fourth generation, #five is turning four at Christmas.)
These things cannot be accomplished if I destroy my ground through pollution, or erosion, lose my water source through contamination or waste, or lose my fuel and other resources due to waste or political uprise.
These are simply some perspectives as to why I and every other farmer I know takes huge steps to provide a safe, nontoxic crop, not to mention that we eat what we grow in every step of the process.
One question I have. How do GMO's increase pesticide use? Their very purpose is to eliminate repeat and multiple applications. This lowers our cost, and chances of contamination.
Again, I don't use or promote GMO's, I am simply curious about your post above.
I am neither for or against GMO's, but realize "lab tests" are not always accurate in their intentions. I once read a report where we were all going to die because a rat died on a peanut butter diet. Could it have been that it was laid on a little thick?
The biggest reason I think ethanol is a crock is I see first hand how much diesel is burned to ship in the seed, prepare the field, plant the field, irrigate the field, cultivate the field, harvest the field, ship the crop, store the crop, make the ethanol, store the ethanol, ship the ethanol.
The year our big ethanol plant came to town none of us could get the fuel we needed to finish our farm year. We switched from less fuel intense crops to a more intense crop.
Our dairys crashed because corn and straw prices tripled. You would think I would be excited as a seller, except the ethanol crop paid me pennies, while crashing a market that had previously paid me dollars. Food prices also experienced an increase, which lowered demand.
As a Farmer, there are three things I want to do.
1. Earn a Living to provide for my Family
2. Provide food for the world at a price that keeps me profitable without driving them to other cheaper alternatives.
3. Preserve the ability for my family to continue this practice as long as they Desire. (I'm fourth generation, #five is turning four at Christmas.)
These things cannot be accomplished if I destroy my ground through pollution, or erosion, lose my water source through contamination or waste, or lose my fuel and other resources due to waste or political uprise.
These are simply some perspectives as to why I and every other farmer I know takes huge steps to provide a safe, nontoxic crop, not to mention that we eat what we grow in every step of the process.
One question I have. How do GMO's increase pesticide use? Their very purpose is to eliminate repeat and multiple applications. This lowers our cost, and chances of contamination.
Again, I don't use or promote GMO's, I am simply curious about your post above.
The one example of the rat lab test is just that...one example. There are other studies out there. If you dig deep enough you can find out a lot. Some of the problems are that Monsanto has a lot of money and has previous high ups in the company now in the FDA, in the whitehouse cabinet and as lobbiests. (sp)
Here is a link to a website with dozens of articles to study up on. Granted this is overwhelmingly one sided. (the other side is big business and the government...ie Monsanto and FDA) Though I don't believe everything I read and agree 100% with everything from this site. I have found it to be a great asset. I think Dr Mercola actually does a great job of getting a lot of research from a number of sources to back up his articles. Overall I trust the info he gives and therefore use his website as a great resource.
http://search.mercola.com/Results.aspx?q=gmo&k=gmo
Here is a link to a website with dozens of articles to study up on. Granted this is overwhelmingly one sided. (the other side is big business and the government...ie Monsanto and FDA) Though I don't believe everything I read and agree 100% with everything from this site. I have found it to be a great asset. I think Dr Mercola actually does a great job of getting a lot of research from a number of sources to back up his articles. Overall I trust the info he gives and therefore use his website as a great resource.
http://search.mercola.com/Results.aspx?q=gmo&k=gmo
Pesticide Resistance is NOT an ethanol induced issue.
Pesticide Resistance does NOT result in increased chemical sales or applications.
Monsanto DOES stand to gain if they can can develop a crop that only needs ONE application of ONE chemical which is the goal of PR crops.
Our corn used to require three different applications of three different chemicals. We now use one application of one chemical and it does a better, cheaper safer job than previous methods. We also experience higher yields due to less weed infestation.
I handle these chemicals in 2.5 Gal jugs poured into my 1000 Gal sprayer. My risk is decreased by doing it once instead of three times. My cost is cheaper by buying the chemical (and diesel, for other farmers custom spraying rates) once instead of three times.
So what does Monsanto get? They get my business vs. the "other guy", because of a safer less labor/cost intense process.
Another note, Monsanto is NOT who I buy my seed or chemicals from.
In reference to Monsanto creating a chemical resistance problem, This has been an issue since the 50's. Weeds have the ability to adapt and change their resistance to chemicals. Formulations are constantly changed to stay ahead of this adaptation. The "Rocket" launch in the above article was natures launch, not Monsanto.
Keep in mind, I farm 3000 acres. If I screw up my management and create a toxic food product, or a epidemic of bacterial breakout, etc. I destroy my livelihood. I also destoy my family and friends food supply.
So how do I avoid this? Last year on my 3000 acres I spent in the six digits paying labs and specialists. All of the farms I know take monthly soil samples which are tested for alkalinity, chemical presence, and nutrient content. We then plan fertilizer and chemical applications to balance things. My crops have a better balanced diet than I do. We also take weekly and during july and august biweekly tissue samples for the same purposes. We have inspectors that do lab tests (using multiple labs in multiple states) on our seed, crops, and final product.
Does your personal garden get this type of attention?
So how does this tie to this thread? I am speaking from personal experience that many of the articles listed here are off base on their ties to ethanol.
I AM NOT as a farmer a believer in ethanol. The two most precious things in our lives are fossil fuels and food. In order to produce ethanol, we consume more of both than it is worth, and this only to have an inferior fuel that causes extra engine expense.
MTN, your link was dead.
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Not exactly true with Ethanol. Actually the opposite is true, Ethanol has a higher octane rating so it will actually do a better job of preventing detonation.
It also has a lower BTU rating, so there is less usable "fuel" in it.
With the higher rating of octane you can increase timing without having detonation. But you will have to jet down or send more fuel from your fuel controller because there is not as much energy in the fuel. This is why you get less fuel economy with E85.
One of the biggest problem with Ethanol in fuel is that it ATTRACTS water. So there is a much higher chance that your fuel will have water in it, because Ethanol absorbs it.
My other complaint is that Ethanol is being funded by the federal government, twice actually.
Once in the actual production of the fuel is a fuel subsidy. The other is in the farming of corn which has been MASSIVELY subsidized for decades.
A "pro" would be the fact that it does/can reduce our dependency on Middle Eastern oil. I don't ever see us being able to completely replace that oil.
Ethanol is corrosive, and on older cars (even 90 and some early 2000's cars) can have some major and expensive issues running say 15% ethanol.
I have a 2001 Ford Taurus that runs E-85. I have done it from time to time, but I get worse mileage with E-85. The car's gas guage doesn't work so that is a major problem (easy but expensive fix).
I have also noticed at higher elevations 7000'+ the car does not run well when you first start it up. My guess would be that is because I have too much octane in the motor and it is having a problem igniting the fuel (higher octane reduces detonation and fuel burn time). Once it warms up it is fine but initially the car REALL stutters (on E85).
I have heard that there are some manufactures that have got BETTER fuel economy with E85, but they have specific engine programming for E85. I would imagine they are really bumping the timing up and I think it is a forced induction (turbo) setup.
It would be nice if future E85 vehicles had either a user selected fuel "map" to switch between gasoline and E85 or something in the fuel system that would detect it and do it automatically (better idea for less user problems).
I think availability of 100% gasoline would be nice for limited track use (sports cars) and off-highway use.
Couldn't have said it better. Look around corn country, the ethanol boom has led to more land being tilled up, drained out and planted for corn...this is not helping preserve land or helping the environment. I'm no farmer but that extra anhydrous going into the ground can't be helping.
The deal with ethanol is to use corn for the base is 100 percent retarded. There are many more options that are much more efficent. Hell algea is one of the most efficent, I wanna say at least 100x more yield per acre as corn for ethanol (been awhile since I saw that so I could be wrong but it is wicked high) and you can grow that chit inside year round.
Note: Some of these posts have been moved from a tech thread to keep that one on point.
You can thank the lobbyists of large industrial agricultural firms and the special interest groups that want to tap into our need for fuel to sell their products...corn, processing, alcohol, and all the equipment/distribution etc to push it into our fuel.
THEY got the regulations passed that required it.
Most of the Lobbyists and PAC employees are LARGE carbon footprint, SUV driving, multi house consumers of fossil fuels... not Prius driving hippies.
You can thank the lobbyists of large industrial agricultural firms and the special interest groups that want to tap into our need for fuel to sell their products...corn, processing, alcohol, and all the equipment/distribution etc to push it into our fuel.
THEY got the regulations passed that required it.
Most of the Lobbyists and PAC employees are LARGE carbon footprint, SUV driving, multi house consumers of fossil fuels... not Prius driving hippies.
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Learn something new every day. One unintended consequence of making food into fuel is that these policies have actually caused the poorest of the poor in third world countries to starve. The price of food is so high that people at he very bottom of the economic scale can't afford to buy it. The riots we are seeing in the Arab countries are largely due to high food costs. Starvation is a great motivator. And ethanol messes with my beloved two stroke engines.
