Yup.
A mountain bike isn't but a 400lb foreign animal with its own disposition that churns up dirt and shlts all day is.
Email from OR SAWS rep about snowkiting
- Thread starter RMKcowboy
- Start date
Yup.
A mountain bike isn't but a 400lb foreign animal with its own disposition that churns up dirt and shlts all day is.
Horses are a hell of a lot more destructive than almost any motorized use, or kite, or wheel, you could envision. Horses carry weeds into the Wilderness. A tire tread will heal, a noxious weed is in the mountains forever.
Believe me, the horse people know what's coming. They will be excluded too, even with their lobbying.
Some of the mountain bikers, are with us now.
The rafters are being regulated to death, and limited more each year. Won't be long before you can only go down the river with a guide.
Hunting is another sport, that's hard to argue. Doesn't gun powder and steel, and lead moving at high velocity, get you a mechanical advantage? But, they have lobbyist.
Yep, I think it's a crock of sheet, that they can't fly a kite in the wilderness. I also think it a crock that you can't snowmobile, or land a helicopter, or ride a bicycle, or do anything short of strip mining a wilderness.
I watched a program that helped me really understand these god forsaken wilderness idiots. They asked them what was their long term goal. Simple, said the woman, we want all government land, to be devoid of people, just animals. NO PEOPLE. They want people to live in cities, and watch animals on TV, and play in city parks. I personally think people like that should kill themselves, to save mother nature, just my opinion though.
The more people they disenfranchise, the stronger we are. All groups need to come together and demand shared access to our public lands. No more singling out groups, and denying them access. Everyone get's to use the forest, or no one can. Or, well just break it into 10 ranches and sell it, to pay off the national debt. Frack them.
Believe me, the horse people know what's coming. They will be excluded too, even with their lobbying.
Some of the mountain bikers, are with us now.
The rafters are being regulated to death, and limited more each year. Won't be long before you can only go down the river with a guide.
Hunting is another sport, that's hard to argue. Doesn't gun powder and steel, and lead moving at high velocity, get you a mechanical advantage? But, they have lobbyist.
Yep, I think it's a crock of sheet, that they can't fly a kite in the wilderness. I also think it a crock that you can't snowmobile, or land a helicopter, or ride a bicycle, or do anything short of strip mining a wilderness.
I watched a program that helped me really understand these god forsaken wilderness idiots. They asked them what was their long term goal. Simple, said the woman, we want all government land, to be devoid of people, just animals. NO PEOPLE. They want people to live in cities, and watch animals on TV, and play in city parks. I personally think people like that should kill themselves, to save mother nature, just my opinion though.
The more people they disenfranchise, the stronger we are. All groups need to come together and demand shared access to our public lands. No more singling out groups, and denying them access. Everyone get's to use the forest, or no one can. Or, well just break it into 10 ranches and sell it, to pay off the national debt. Frack them.
Last edited:
Wow...I think it's insane that they would exclude kite riding in the wilderness. I've always thought the same about mountain bikes, but Kites???really???
As for the horse issue, whoever said 400lbs must be riding a llama. Most horses big enough to pack a man or load through the mountains are at least 1000lbs. Since they only have 2 feet on the ground at a time while in motion, that's roughly 500psi pounding the trail into a trench. I raise horses and love to ride them, but they are definately a whole lot more destructive than riding a kite over 10ft of snow.
I would love to see a bunch of diverse user groups band together and get some motion in the opposite direction it's headed now. Green groups are well funded and well organized, and they are going to be tough to beat w/o a huge group effort.
As for the horse issue, whoever said 400lbs must be riding a llama. Most horses big enough to pack a man or load through the mountains are at least 1000lbs. Since they only have 2 feet on the ground at a time while in motion, that's roughly 500psi pounding the trail into a trench. I raise horses and love to ride them, but they are definately a whole lot more destructive than riding a kite over 10ft of snow.
I would love to see a bunch of diverse user groups band together and get some motion in the opposite direction it's headed now. Green groups are well funded and well organized, and they are going to be tough to beat w/o a huge group effort.
seems like alot of us get IT and are more then willing to join forces...the question is, HOW?
How do we get other groups involved and on our side? I know there is a group in Utah(?) where mountain bikers and dirt bikers work together. The only way this is going to work is to get out. If you are out and see some kiters, stop and BS with them, hell if you see backcountry skiers and boarders BS with them. Same in the summer, I know horse folks really don't like dirt bikers, but hey when that bike pulls over and kills the motor for you to pass, stop and talk with them.
How do we get other groups involved and on our side? I know there is a group in Utah(?) where mountain bikers and dirt bikers work together. The only way this is going to work is to get out. If you are out and see some kiters, stop and BS with them, hell if you see backcountry skiers and boarders BS with them. Same in the summer, I know horse folks really don't like dirt bikers, but hey when that bike pulls over and kills the motor for you to pass, stop and talk with them.
Z
Zachcreek
Well-known member
X, coudnt agree more. I allways pull over for horses and stop. Couldt imagine spooking one and having my azz trampled. And the horse people are allways greatfull.
As Wade said, all groups are under the gun. I do all sports in winter and summer. Raft, kayak, Mtn Bike, 4-wheel, ski, snowshoe, hike its all good. But.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGWUZQ5xCyw
As Wade said, all groups are under the gun. I do all sports in winter and summer. Raft, kayak, Mtn Bike, 4-wheel, ski, snowshoe, hike its all good. But.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGWUZQ5xCyw
S
snowmobiler
Well-known member
"if you see backcountry skiers and boarders BS with them"
good luck with that.here those babies cry CONFLICT... comming to your area soon.the 2 cannot enjoy the forest together.they want sleds eliminated from the area.
good luck with that.here those babies cry CONFLICT... comming to your area soon.the 2 cannot enjoy the forest together.they want sleds eliminated from the area.
not all....i have seen happy horse poeople and crabby when biking. treat them all the same and kill them with kindness.
O
Oregongirl
Well-known member
I reached out to Aaron Sales - the kiteboarder mentioned in the article. I expressed the similarities of our situation and how we should fight from that basis of commonality. He did mention that he owns a sled. We'll see...
He sent me a link to a petition to sign to allow kiteboarding in the Wilderness.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/Snowkite-Access-in-Jeopardy3/25
Just like the comment area of the Oregonian article - there is a lot of bad press/feelings about snowmobiles expressed in the comments of the petition.....which really freakin' chaps my hide!!! However, IMO, excluding ANY snow related recreation in the Wilderness is pointless. The surface we are riding on MELTS! No tracks. So, I signed the petition. Kiteboarding should not be excluded if x-country skiers and snowboarders are allowed access.
kidwoo- if you think wilderness designation protects anything, think again. Wilderness, as it was originally intended to be implemented, was actually somewhat of a good idea. Set some areas that haven't been massively manipulated by man aside so that we can observe natural processes in a wildland setting. However, the premise of wilderness has been twisted, contorted, and sh!t on and it is now nothing more than a way for the environmental extremists to lock others out of PUBLIC land, for no good or logical reason. I do NOT think wilderness designation is the answer to anything, nor does it do any good.
Wade- you mentioned landing helicopters in wilderness. What's funny about that is that, in most cases, you can not land an aircraft in a wilderness area. However, there are some airstrips within wilderness areas (several in the Frank Church) where you can legally land an aircraft. Personally, I think its pretty cool because it has allowed me to see some country I wouldn't have otherwise seen. But seriously, how does that make any sense at all? Its like wiping before you poop...
I did not intend for this to be a greenie bashing thread... I just found it very interesting that now even non-motorized users are being told they can't go play in the wilderness, and they don't like it. I trul hope this opens eyes for some of them, and they can come to realize that it really sucks when you can't go to your favorite spot and enjoy yourself anymore. Maybe now we can start working together and coming up with ways to keep PUBLIC land open to PUBLIC use.
Wade- you mentioned landing helicopters in wilderness. What's funny about that is that, in most cases, you can not land an aircraft in a wilderness area. However, there are some airstrips within wilderness areas (several in the Frank Church) where you can legally land an aircraft. Personally, I think its pretty cool because it has allowed me to see some country I wouldn't have otherwise seen. But seriously, how does that make any sense at all? Its like wiping before you poop...
I did not intend for this to be a greenie bashing thread... I just found it very interesting that now even non-motorized users are being told they can't go play in the wilderness, and they don't like it. I trul hope this opens eyes for some of them, and they can come to realize that it really sucks when you can't go to your favorite spot and enjoy yourself anymore. Maybe now we can start working together and coming up with ways to keep PUBLIC land open to PUBLIC use.
Either I wasn't clear or you need to read my posts a little more carefully.
But yeah for the most part I completely agree (and I thought that's what I've been saying)
But the one thing I do have a small disagreement with is that there's just some all encompasing sinister desire to keep people from having fun. I know it seems like that sometimes but I honestly don't think that's the case with most people. Most of the people supporting wilderness expansion honestly believe that this is the only and/or best way to enact wild lands protection. For the most part, they just don't have any clue about all the archaic BS little rules that are both contradictory and have no real basis in reality. They just hear 'wilderness designation will protect land' and then think 'yup, I'm all for that!'
Where I do see this point having some merit however is with the few bullheaded people in each user group. Skiers, hikers, bikers or equestrians who honestly feel that their day is ruined if they come accross someone doing a different activity. I've met them from every sport. "Mountain bikers are rude and too fast, horse riders are all self entitled a$$holes" etc etc..... Every group has their pricks, sledders included. Where progress is going to be made is when we can quit this petty bickering and once working together finally compete with the numbers of people backing these designations. They're just people though.....it's worth at least making the attempt to get through to them. Just saying 'fvck'em' isn't going to get us anywhere.
Speaking just for the sled community, there are a few things we can do. The first one is just don't be an a$$ when you see people. Don't blow by them at 60mph like they're not even there. Say 'hi'. Talk to them. See how their day is going. I do this every time I'm on my mountain bike with hikers and horse riders, or on my sled.
The second one: I'm going to catch hell for this but as someone with feet in multiple sports who has these conversations with people from almost every group, I honestly believe this. Almost ALL of the complaints about sleds revolve around two things: noise and pollution. When skiers/snowshoers see sleds in a staging area or out in the woods this is what they know about sleds. They stink (and lets be honest, 30 cold sleds in a parking lot DO stink) and the noise they make 'ruins' the backcountry setting for a lot of people. Even some sledders admit this. There's not a whole lot we can do exhaust-wise with two strokes until 4stroke turbos become cheaper and lighter but going out and getting the loudest can you can find does not help our access issues. And remember.....this affects how the people keeping you out of areas percieve our sport. THIS CANNOT BE STRESSED ENOUGH.
Some of these things are easy to do, some not so much. But it's important that we try. I'm fuming about having lost another area just south of tahoe in this new omnibus bill and it's on my mind every time I see someone on foot while out on my sled.
You and I are on the same page. What you have to realize is that it isn't the locals that push for these designations. Your comment about Feinstein is dead on.
The locals hate this crap, it kills their economy. It's the radical greenies that want all access controled and eliminated and they will not stop at anything short of that. If a debate were to come up about a secondary designation it would go no where because the radicals are not interested in compromising.
And we as shared/open access believers just don't get it. These radicals are terrorists just like Bin Laden and his ilk. And just like that, rational thinking people can't understand them. Just like you can't negotiate with a radical Islamic terrorist you can't negotiate with a radical greenie... because they aren't interested in compromise. They want you dead or gone from their world.
We have to realize the motives of these extremists. They don't want ANY access to nature and they will use ANY tactic they can to see those limits come about.
So you are 100% right, from a rational thought standpoint, but it doesn't matter, because these radicals don't recognize your rational thoughts.
sled_guy
Way to go reaching out to him.....hope it leads somewhere good. I to signed the petition, nothing gets me going like the public being barred from it's land.
Either I wasn't clear or you need to read my posts a little more carefully.
Sorry, I did mis-interpret some of your prior comments
I agree, the biggest problem we face is people who have NO connection to the land, that have NO knowledge on what a wilderness designation really does, and have NO understanding that once it's a done deal (wilderness designation), there is NO going back.
sled_guy also brings up some good points- the enviro extremists want nothing to do with compromise, fair treatment, equal access, sensible use of public land... they want it shut down period. They will have it no other way. Its too bad they can't open there %$@!ing eyes and realize the error of their ways...
While there are some groups like this (like the group that set fire to a hummer dealership, burning a bunch of steel and rubber to protect the air
), I think it's dangerous to lump the entire movement in with these freaks. Remember the soccer moms we talked about. There ARE people out there that are worth reaching out to and whom we can have a conversation with. That's where the focus needs to be. I know this because when I was griping about this latest wilderness expansion, two of the guys in my office said "good, more land that won't be developed". These aren't nutjobs, I promise. So I talked to both of them about how keeping mountain bikes and sleds off the property isn't going to do squat to keep development/mining/logging out. Keeping development/mining/logging out is all you need to do if that's your goal! But in the end of both conversations, each of them saw my point and agreed with me that the blanket cure all wilderness setup is way too heavy handed a solution.We can't write off everyone who supports wilderness designation. I think it's going to be much more productive to make an effort to educate them and get them to realize that there can be another way to set aside public lands. Some of them are wackos like you said, but not all.
Most of us know about SAWS but here's group that's been working towards another non wilderness level of land designation that keeps recreation opportunities open. I haven't been on SW that long so I don't know if they're well known here. Apologies if so.
http://www.sharetrails.org/
They are well known kidwoo, the Blue Ribbon Coalition has been around quite a while and has put a lot of effort into fighting for equal access for EVERYONE.
I figured as much. I usually only hear about them in the context of moto and mountain bikes though.
They actually advocate access for everyone... taken from the BRC website:
Like SAWS, they have been working hard for years to keep areas open to the public.
O
Oregongirl
Well-known member
That's a good question for sure. But TODAY - I am willing to let my government know that I oppose their stupid, short-sighted policies. In today's political environment, you have to drill into the facts and get past the labels. While I am the rep for SAWS, I am also eager to oppose development on the Metolius River. To the greenies - that probably seems contradictory. Member and Rep for SAWS and participating in Save the Metolious?????? HUH??? But they are both about pristine backcountry spaces. I want access to recreate in the backcountry - all of the backcounty and I DON'T want a resort built in that same environment.
I don't want or seek conflict with any other types of users and I hope that the future won't hold new conflicts with kiteboarders. All I can persoanlly do is reach out and try to build consensus and educate those who are ignorant. (that alone could be a full time job!!!). The average joe American is exactly like Kidwoo describes - they think "Wilderness" means no development will happen and they do not understand the limitations in access to humans.
I've said it before - and I'll say it again - we really need someone like an Al Gore to evangelize public land means public access to the masses. (i hope ya all get this - and there is NO misunderstanding here....I do NOT care for Mr. Gore, his beliefs, or his politics!!)
Hey, if he can invent the internet, he can do anything
Maybe with the recent 200 million more acres of wilderness designated, non-motorized user groups that were once ill-informed will now come to realize just why the motorized crowd gets up in arms each time new wilderness is proposed, especially if some of those groups (like the snowkiters) get told that they can't enjoy their favorite public lands like they used to anymore. Is this just wishful thinking?
S
snowmobiler
Well-known member
thanks for your opinion oregongirl
that might effect all 3 of the snowkiters
edit..i sure hope nobody takes my posts the wrong waydo i have selfish attitude about this?probably.it was one of the best riding areas in the state taken away from us sledders.
that might effect all 3 of the snowkiters
edit..i sure hope nobody takes my posts the wrong way
do i have selfish attitude about this?probably.it was one of the best riding areas in the state taken away from us sledders.
Last edited:
Similar threads
