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Disappointing turnout at sled movie premiere

That is the million dollar question. If OEM's or aftermarket companies believe that customers buys products they see on videos then they will support the video industry, if they don't believe that - they won't.

Jorli: you produced a great movie in Fourcast last year. One more question I have is how much support financially from the OEM's is adequate and do these companies have that capital at their disposal?

That is a good question but its relative to the ROI they receive in return compared to other marketing programs they invest in. Big companies like the OE's have money, they just spend it poorly. They hire ad agencies that blow through money like crazy, a good example is Ski-Doo/Cramer that hired Oliver Staub to produce still photographs of their sleds in action. The shoot took 15 days and 17 people, they suspended snowmobiles by wires inside and shot fake snow canons to simulate a real riding scenario. Those shots probably cost a couple hundred Gs to produce. I would guess Ski-Doo and Polaris probably spend upwards of $20-30 million a year in marketing, AC less, Yamaha I don't know, its not just to produce ideas, images, campaigns, brochures, posters, websites, fund racing programs, then there is media buying, ad agencies and all the other stuff we don't know about. The cost of putting together a program to support the sport would be relatively minor, maybe %5 of total budget and likely yield tremendous success for the brand and the sport in general. Brand name association validates legitimacy to the general public and lends hand in hand to mutual success.
 
I should mention that I hate being the only one speaking out about this, I see there are other filmakers reading these posts and remain silent, if you disagree, then call me out on it, otherwise speak up.......
 
Passion

I should mention that I hate being the only one speaking out about this, I see there are other filmakers reading these posts and remain silent, if you disagree, then call me out on it, otherwise speak up.......
Jorli you obviously have great passion for what you speak. I've been in business for myself for over 30yrs and have employed many individuals over that time and continue to do so. It always bothers me that a certain percentage of those individuals continually speak of how I don't know what I'm doing and how if they were running the business they would sure do things differently(their way). in public I hear the rant constantly of how an employee feels they know more about their employers business and how they do everything wrong. i don't get too upset about that any more because I see how they have managed to be and employee throughout theur lives and will never be an employer. In other words Jorli......you have an opinion of how the 4 mfg's of sleds should be runing their business and in fact suggest they don't know much about the business they have created over the last 50-60 years yet you are not developing, building, or marketing in the industry. If any of the 4 mfg's believed their business would benifeit from supporting the film industry enough to warrant big expendetures towards it, don't you think they would be doing it already? It's what they do better than any one else......that's why they are still in business. Hell Jorli there isn't even a decent video out there relating to atv's and that industry is doing just fine and .....oh ya... most of those are built by the same companies that build sleds.
I believe that consumers today buy sleds based on what they know about the sled not on who they see riding them. If the film industry was as important to the sled mfg's as it is to those of us that purchase the videos they would be beating a path to the doors of producers such as yourself,Veedy, Doc Zoom and J Phelan. I think that's just the way it is.
 
If Fourcast had been a huge success and crossed over to the mainstream would your still feel the same way?



Jorli your threads offer the invitation for discussion...yet you dicount everything people bring to the discussion. Anybody not in agreement is somehow less and not worth your time...labeled as a "crusty"?


I hope you find your way out of this funk......it is not a good way to go thru life.
 
Backcountry I agree,
but sledding will weed out the social posers because it takes a lot more effort to show up on a sled let alone perform than it does on skis or a board, but there are some that do the sport or any sport to the full extent, like yourself. Those are the ones we want, So if we put the best of both worlds together all the sally posers can't knock it because its a joint effort and bad mouthing one would be bad mouthing themselves.

As for vids leading to sells, I wont hardly buy a vid because of the cost, $25 bucks seems like little at times but if you went out and bought every sled vid out there you could have some pretty nice gear. (I buy a few but less every year) The only reason I buy them is for a pre winter thrill or to see what some are doing and if I'm lacking in knowledge to become a better rider, I don't think I am, my sled is lacking, and for info on sleds I look to the turbo builders or top riders then piece it together to make a decision on what(sled, turbo or pipe, suspension etc...) will get me where I want to go while staying in one piece. But there are many that buy whats cool, the new thing, or the same sled as what there friends have. Also makes a big difference on dealer services and location. The vids are only going to people that know sleds and already have there opinions. Out of people I know, getting beat sells more sleds or A/M add on's then any thing else. In my opinion.
 
By the same token, I thought Fourcast was one of the most boring sledding DVDs that I bought. If I had made that DVD, I wouldn't have included so much snowX....it got old. If Jorli would do things the way I think is better, it would have been a lot better DVD and probably sold more and had a better premier, etc etc etc.

Jorli - see the irony of this post, I hope you do.

Nobody does DVDs of duramax or powerstrokes, yet those sell like they're going out of style. The DVDs/pro riders don't benefit the OE's into swaying public opinion and purchasing trends as much as you're thinking they do. Word of mouth (these forums) by current owners and their mechanical and technical experiences carry A LOT more weight. My advice, don't over inflate your ego to think that you carry the weight of the OE's sled sales on your back from your DVD.
 
Jorli you obviously have great passion for what you speak. I've been in business for myself for over 30yrs and have employed many individuals over that time and continue to do so. It always bothers me that a certain percentage of those individuals continually speak of how I don't know what I'm doing and how if they were running the business they would sure do things differently(their way). in public I hear the rant constantly of how an employee feels they know more about their employers business and how they do everything wrong. i don't get too upset about that any more because I see how they have managed to be and employee throughout theur lives and will never be an employer. In other words Jorli......you have an opinion of how the 4 mfg's of sleds should be runing their business and in fact suggest they don't know much about the business they have created over the last 50-60 years yet you are not developing, building, or marketing in the industry. If any of the 4 mfg's believed their business would benifeit from supporting the film industry enough to warrant big expendetures towards it, don't you think they would be doing it already? It's what they do better than any one else......that's why they are still in business. Hell Jorli there isn't even a decent video out there relating to atv's and that industry is doing just fine and .....oh ya... most of those are built by the same companies that build sleds.
I believe that consumers today buy sleds based on what they know about the sled not on who they see riding them. If the film industry was as important to the sled mfg's as it is to those of us that purchase the videos they would be beating a path to the doors of producers such as yourself,Veedy, Doc Zoom and J Phelan. I think that's just the way it is.

First of all I do run my own business that involves development, production and marketing, the employee/employer relationship is nothing new to me, but a good employer will always listen to their employees even if they choose not to act on their recommendations.

What we do helps these companies and helps the sport, but we compete for attention on zero budgets against other sports that are highly competitive for consumer spending and are far more effective at communicating their experiences amongst the public. Lets face it, sledding is not spectator friendly. Please tell how an OE can communicate the experience of snowmobiling to people that have not ridden a snowmobile? How can they bring new people into the sport? Slednecks has done more to grow the sport than all the OE's combined. If I didn't see Blair whipping his sled, I would have stuck with snowboarding and probably many of the sledders under the age of 36 where drawn in by similar influences.

Lets look at the organization of the sport, between clubs, racing circuits, dealers, manufacturers, there is tremendous potential to bring people together in support of the sport, however that doesn't happen because snowmobilers can't work together. Its beyond retarded that Provincial and State Federations reject racing and any other youth oriented activity. The further up the chain of command you go in sledding, the crustier and more isolationist they get.

This attitude doesn't permeate in most other adventure oriented sports. The film side is a small part of bigger picture that is beyond stupid.

Having been the grass roots of mountain biking and seeing the same resistance from the old school there, it didn't take long for the tidal wave of profit to break their attitude towards supporting the sport in all its facets.

I think its ridiculous that a guy like KJ can't get any support, in any other sport the best athletes in the world make millions a year, he can't get a free sled to ride, and by this logic, if companies can't show how their product enhances the experience of snowmobiling, then what is the incentive for consumers to go out and drop 16K on a new machine?

The films are massive social tools that help influence consumer spending.
 
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Jorli I have been to plenty of Premiers. None on a sunday night. Hats off to Nads and Julieann for their passion and enthusiasm. But with another event next door (boarder flick) without the proper demo I could see how this was a challenge in a Ski/Board town. 90% of the Sled premieres I have been to have been hundreds plus with huge enthusiasm.......and lots of swag.

I understand how you continue to slag the industry, as I know it is your passion to represent the arts. But why do you continue to take shots at each of the Mfg's? I know first hand how hard they are all trying to maintain and regain passion within the community. BRP doesn't spend $20-30m on their snowmobile campaingn......guaranteed!!
I truely appreciate what Polaris has done with their recent Freeride program, BRP with the Ambasador Program and now Yamaha with ridewithchrisbrown.com . We are all trying to indentify with the backcountry crowd as we know organized racing is also in dire straits. So this is a mechanism the public can identify with a premiere athlete in the world we all love to ride. Please give it a shot.
As far as KJ......damn someone should support that kid.......we would but you just dissed us again:lol:

Safe sleddin
RS
 
If Fourcast had been a huge success and crossed over to the mainstream would your still feel the same way?



Jorli your threads offer the invitation for discussion...yet you dicount everything people bring to the discussion. Anybody not in agreement is somehow less and not worth your time...labeled as a "crusty"?


I hope you find your way out of this funk......it is not a good way to go thru life.


Fourcast's performance was definitely disappointing, I fully accepted that there would be reluctance to participate in the project however what really was disturbed me was the lack of response from the industry. I sent DVDs to all the OEs, not a single response. Not even a "I'll check it out". Silence on all the follow ups.

It brings up a lot of questions, I know for fact that a production of this caliber would have solicited a response in any other sport. Fourcast cost a lot of money to produce, oddly it cost the same amount of money as how much I've spent on snowmobiles since I've started riding 13 years ago. Its a big number.

I'm not trying to discounting other people's opinions, however almost everything people bring up are things I've dealt with directly in working in/with this industry and my opinions are shared by most of the people I work with at the highest of this sport.

If what we do is irrelevant, it certainly appears to be. I've said my piece, given others some insight into what is going in this game so hopefully they don't repeat my mistakes, great. If you think I'm FOS, no problem either. I don't care.
 
I have to agree about a Sunday showing. It's not that I don't support the sport, it's just that there is work Monday morning...and even Sunday afternoons are typically spent with family/working on home projects/slow down time to prepare for the week ahead/etc. Saturday is more of a play/free night for most. We see this with fundraisers for the local club, or avy center. Even Friday nights don't get near the draw as a Saturday night.

I am involved with land use issues, so my head isn't buried in the sand. I'm on various FS email/snail mail lists, plus the organizations I belong to. I do write my letters/email, go to meetings, make my calls, etc.

As to buying products showcased in a sled flick....that is how I started with Klim gear years ago (my first purchase of gear that wasn't from a sled company). Not because I thought it was "cool", but watching showed me the versatility and dryness (without being the staypuff marshmallow man). It wasn't because a rider was saying it was the best, it is what I saw with my own eyes while watching that made me take a look at it and research it further. With buying a sled, what is ridden in the films does NOT influence me at all to purchase a certain sled brand (it could however influence WHERE I buy from). It's the same here on SW for me. I support those whom support SW and our sport. When talking with my fellow sledders/people in our local club/people I ride with/etc, I do give out recommendations on products to purchase (or not), or where to purchase (or not), based on my overall experience.

Who is KJ? :face-icon-small-blu

This is from me, a consumer, sharing my honest thoughts from the consumer side of things. :)
 
I should mention that I hate being the only one speaking out about this, I see there are other filmakers reading these posts and remain silent, if you disagree, then call me out on it, otherwise speak up.......
I will call you out on it. You keep putting down the OE's like they don't know what they are doing, why don't you take this discussion to them and offer your services? You talk about return on investment, there isn't much in snowmobiling. I don't think there is much opportunity for growth in the sport. The majority of snowmobilers are older, like in their 40's and have children. Reaching out to them via fancy adds, parties, and premiers, is doubtful to happen. I just don't see it. Most live in the country and prefer a more quiet lifestyle too.

If you want snowmobiling to grow, fix the problem with a parent not able to afford a snowmobile for their child for Christmas. Parents buying their kids a cheap snowboard and gear is what gets them into the sport.

Snowmobiling is just too expensive, too much work, on crappy technology to appeal to the masses.

I talk to many people on the slopes and tell them that I am a snowmobiler, they all wish they would have one, but it is just too expensive. The sleds are expensive, you need a trailer, you need a towing vehicle or a truck, you need a place to store them, you need a place to work on them, you need the tools to work on them.

Or you buy a snowboard and head to the mountains...
 
I will call you out on it. You keep putting down the OE's like they don't know what they are doing, why don't you take this discussion to them and offer your services? You talk about return on investment, there isn't much in snowmobiling. I don't think there is much opportunity for growth in the sport. The majority of snowmobilers are older, like in their 40's and have children. Reaching out to them via fancy adds, parties, and premiers, is doubtful to happen. I just don't see it. Most live in the country and prefer a more quiet lifestyle too.

If you want snowmobiling to grow, fix the problem with a parent not able to afford a snowmobile for their child for Christmas. Parents buying their kids a cheap snowboard and gear is what gets them into the sport.

Snowmobiling is just too expensive, too much work, on crappy technology to appeal to the masses.

I talk to many people on the slopes and tell them that I am a snowmobiler, they all wish they would have one, but it is just too expensive. The sleds are expensive, you need a trailer, you need a towing vehicle or a truck, you need a place to store them, you need a place to work on them, you need the tools to work on them.

Or you buy a snowboard and head to the mountains...

If people want to ride, they'll find a way to make it happen. A descent mountain bike costs 5 grand and are worthless a year later. Its a lot easier to buy a sled on the pay and forget program than cough up 5 grand at once. Vids definitely get people interested, the problem is that most the sled vids suck, they are so far off the back from other sports. Check out That's it that's all, you can buy it from itunes, it will blow your friggin mind.
 
vids

jorli,

hey man..great job on fourcast,,, i've produced 6 bmx vids starting in the early 90's....my videos created a market, started rider owned companies, lead to riders getting sponsered.

kj is an very talented rider...seems hungry. his future in the sport is not riding, ridings a start......

sledding needs more rider owned companies....for instance. if kj started making his own handlebars and these bars were kickass(light, strong, sweet bend) i would buy them...because i know kj would have pushed these bars to the max and is putting his solid reputation behind them.

pretty hard to start making sleds....lots of dollars....but small parts are pretty easy way to start a little something,

the future is yours....take the bull by the horns!

i do find it weird that the major sled companies dont really have a team vid every year, or a freeride team,

sledding needs to step into the future,

that being said.....i believe jorli and kj and other dudes like them r the future of snowmobiling,

bop bop,

jaycliffdrop.jpg

2801_97247242931_515567931_2620014_97363_n.jpg


beard
 
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I loved Forecast! I thought it was a great movie. I felt it took the journalistic/ documentary style to showing what the sport has to offer. Up until the last few years nearly every snowmobile movie I watched had a hardcore, in your face type of feel to it. Why would the OEM's want to be associated with people riding around to head banging, rock and roll music, while rides destroy their sleds? The answer: they don't. While that may attract a few, it doesn't attract the masses or the dollars from the OE's. The way to earn the respect of the OE's in my opinion is to continue to show the sport in a positive light, like Forecast. Other movies such as Alticity 6 (which I also purchased) didn't impress me at all and certainly won't get the attention of the OE's. If I am an OE the last thing I want to see is my sled doing a 4320 degree tumble down a hill resulting in a yard sale.

I know skiers/ boarders got a bad rap in this thread, but I honestly believe Warren Miller alone has done more for the sport of skiing than all the other snowmobile movies combined have done for snowmobiling. I've seen nearly all of his movies, and loved them all.

I think that the best way to get support from the brass of the sport is to show not only their products in a positive light, but give them something more. Which is exactly what Forecast did. I loved the inside look at what the riders do with their sleds, how it isn't all jumps and spills with loud music. Show the passion of the riders and the support will come from the OE's. As much as I would love for the OE to support the film aspect of snowmobiling it is not a good business decision based on the quality of snowmobile films produced in the past. Forecast is the closest movie in my opinion that an OE would support, but based on hundreds of poorly produced movies in the past the OE's shy away from supporting the film industry. With continued quality like Forecast OE's will come around.

Jorri, keep up the good work. I loved the behind the scenes aspect of Forecast. Give the viewers something that every other film hasn't!
 
I loved Forecast! I thought it was a great movie. I felt it took the journalistic/ documentary style to showing what the sport has to offer. Up until the last few years nearly every snowmobile movie I watched had a hardcore, in your face type of feel to it. Why would the OEM's want to be associated with people riding around to head banging, rock and roll music, while rides destroy their sleds? The answer: they don't. While that may attract a few, it doesn't attract the masses or the dollars from the OE's. The way to earn the respect of the OE's in my opinion is to continue to show the sport in a positive light, like Forecast. Other movies such as Alticity 6 (which I also purchased) didn't impress me at all and certainly won't get the attention of the OE's. If I am an OE the last thing I want to see is my sled doing a 4320 degree tumble down a hill resulting in a yard sale.

I know skiers/ boarders got a bad rap in this thread, but I honestly believe Warren Miller alone has done more for the sport of skiing than all the other snowmobile movies combined have done for snowmobiling. I've seen nearly all of his movies, and loved them all.

I think that the best way to get support from the brass of the sport is to show not only their products in a positive light, but give them something more. Which is exactly what Forecast did. I loved the inside look at what the riders do with their sleds, how it isn't all jumps and spills with loud music. Show the passion of the riders and the support will come from the OE's. As much as I would love for the OE to support the film aspect of snowmobiling it is not a good business decision based on the quality of snowmobile films produced in the past. Forecast is the closest movie in my opinion that an OE would support, but based on hundreds of poorly produced movies in the past the OE's shy away from supporting the film industry. With continued quality like Forecast OE's will come around.

Jorri, keep up the good work. I loved the behind the scenes aspect of Forecast. Give the viewers something that every other film hasn't!

Fourcast might be the best of the crop but that doesn't make it good, not that its bad, but its pretty sub par compared to what other sports have done. If there isn't support for filmers, the film won't get any better. It doesn't seem like Fourcast made any impact on the big four.

KJ is badass, that dude is on fire.
 
I should mention that I hate being the only one speaking out about this, I see there are other filmakers reading these posts and remain silent, if you disagree, then call me out on it, otherwise speak up.......

Jorli,
Sometimes I find that remaining silent is the best angle of attack, but I do agree that it is hard to remain silent when you bust your arse for years and don't see much in return. Finding support in the film making business is much like sitting on the street corner with your guitar case open waiting for someone with a good heart who sees your efforts and will reward you, just to keep you playing, so they and others can enjoy your sweet melody. But what I have found is that not everyone out there has a good heart, or refuse to see your potential.
I have pretty much given up on the dream that I could work on a budget to really produce something awesome. Instead I work on increasing my debt, year after year. The stress levels can get pretty insane, but I trudge ahead knowing that it's something I love to do.
Yes, I realize that manufacturers and aftermarket companies have made ( literally ) millions of dollars from the subliminal advertising I provide. Heck, the hundreds of emails I answer to people who want to know all about what each rider has under the hood, or which sled is best for boondocking, or whatever. No, I dont get paid for this, I dont even get a bloody toque out of the deal.
I have a hard time " begging " for support. It's just one of my downfalls.

If someone wants their product exposed to thousands of potential customers, they can throw me an email. I answer them daily.

fwp@telus.net

cheers ! :D:beer;
 
If people want to ride, they'll find a way to make it happen. A descent mountain bike costs 5 grand and are worthless a year later. Its a lot easier to buy a sled on the pay and forget program than cough up 5 grand at once. Vids definitely get people interested, the problem is that most the sled vids suck, they are so far off the back from other sports. Check out That's it that's all, you can buy it from itunes, it will blow your friggin mind.

"Thats it, Thats all" makes every sled movie look like a joke. $750K budget along with a blank cheque of in-kind services from Red Bull. Helicopters filming helicopters, cineflex, spacecam, out sold Batman on itunes for the first two weeks of its release. All time, the film that is the voice of snowboarding, period. Fourcast is nowhere near that.

Cheers! Veedy, I started this post to comment on the poor showing at the premiere and just say that its too bad our sport isn't soliciting attention, i don't even care why anymore. It is what it is! There is great title for a sled film...."It is what it is!" Trademark. Haha!
 
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I'm no premiere expert, but I would say Sunday hurt and trying it in a ski/boarding town also hurt. It's tough in this industry, I wouldn't even try to tap into it if I didn't have 9 years of momentum with Mountain Mod Mania.

I do agree the OE's are really tight, its pretty sad when pro riders can't even get a deal on a sled, they say its not in their budget, I don't get it, if they still make a couple of grand on a discounted sled, they're making money, not spending it, not to mention the huge exposure they get. I feel its more of a bachelor's degree working rather than common sense marketing.

I tried to sell my movies at a Warren Miller movie one year, guess how many I sold.....zero! It's a different crowd.

I do have to say snowmobilers are a great big family and very passionate about our sport. It's too bad sleds cost so darn much these days, but you can still get deals on used sleds.

Stop by and say hi if your in Boise for the Snow Show!

Doc Zoom
 
Yes, however sledding isn't even drawing an audience....I watch all sorts of things that I may never do.

As do it, but the footage and camera work in boarding or biking or skating films is above and beyond what sled footage is at. Part of it is due to money, part to the nature of the sports. You do see sled filming catching up, but it is hard to convey onto film what sledding is like. Kinda like live hockey vs tv hockey.
 
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