Colorado Bans OHV's

[410Fortune]

"We've been ticketed for riding on trails that we normally ride and had NO closed sign or gate"

Now they have the personnell to give even more tickets for doing just this!

I vote we make our own signs and post them, that way its a marked trail... they dont have the $$$ or people to maintain the trails we have, let alone provide signage for new ones

What a joke... so many trails I use in CO are not signed, so now they are considered "closed" thanks greenies!

FYI tree huggers: I am more green then YOU, I actually use the lands you are attempting to close.... I guess if you dont use them they dont need to be open right? WAJ

 

[MtnDoo]

I totally agree that we need to stay out of Wilderness and closed private lands. If someone violates that, then warn once, and level the ax on em.

That said..


Chancelor Ritter's next enforcement directive will be: Shoot first, ask questions later. Explaining that this is critical to protect our public lands from the....um....public.

I see this Ordinance going way beyond reasonable regulation, as a move to bolster the nanny state. What if they said - mountain bikes (mechanized travel) may operate on ONLY signed routes, with maps. Can you imagine? The state's summer tourism would fold. Maybe we could apply the "Shoot first, ask questions later." mechanism to mtn bikes!

The tall, thick walls around the People's Republic of Boulder are coming down.... watch out.

 

[Kong]

Colorado's national forests have great trail systems, with motor vehicle use maps to let users know what trails are open or closed. When the vehicles stay on the trail the damage is limited to the trail, and can be maintained. Off trail uses just makes a mess of things. If you want to be able to ride off trail in Colorado you better get a sled.

ROB: This isn't about riding off trail. In many areas, and I know your area well, the trails are relatively unmarked-partially marked-poorly marked etc. I can show you some trails down here where it's the greenies that move signs around. Even the rangers don't know all of them as I have had discussions and showed some of the problems to them.

Technically this leaves a lot of trails in doubt because DOW (state officers) and regular law enforcement know the Federal trails even less.

This is a way for the greenies to push more people out of the forrest.

This will seriously hurt tourism also, and quite frankly great and remote trails is why I moved to Colorado 25 years ago in the first place.

All these things do is move people into smaller areas and on top of each other. Down here in the San Juans they are trying to close over 1,000,000 acres to OHV and 500,000 acres to snowmobiles. Also create more wilderness areas, even closing out mountain bikers (I have been telling these guys for years they better hook up with all motorized)

These aren't pure-as-snow motivations to help mankind.

 

[Kong]

The Colorado Snowmobile Association supported this bill. The main componenet was enforcement. It does not change boundries or anything like that. The forest rangers are too thinly spread out to possibly enforce rules, which just breaks my heart, but the CSA looked at this as a tool to help the FS enforce laws already on the books by empowering all law enforcement not just rangers to write tickets. It was meant to make us look better by saying, we already obey the rules, go get the rule breakers. That takes away some of the greenies power in the end.

I confronted the CSA pres on this because I don't like the sound of it either. Thing is the CSP and local Sherriffs don't have sleds to chase us with anyway so it is a bit of a paper tiger with a feel good component for the greenies. I have spoken to my Sherrif and the local city cops, they have NO intention of driving up the pass to write stupid boundry tickets. Nothing is really going to change other than sledders as a group, via the CSA have said, go ahead punish the rulebreakers, we will make that easier. It is meant to be instead of further closures, just enforce the existing ones. It helps the FS. Whether you like that or not, so far when we have helped them, they have been more willing to work with us. They are beginning to see the skiers as the whiny ba$tards they really are, and us as co-operative. I don't think they have given us enough, in fact they have taken too much but this is supposed to be a step in the right direction.

I'm fed up with CSA. As a sleddar and OHVer like many of you they threw the OHV overboard hoping to make themselves look more responsible wonderful blah blah blah.

It is pure BS I've finally learned. There is absolutely nothing that you can do to change the rad greens minds. They want people out of the forrest period. It's as if you really could stop radical islam by giving them Israel. Give me a break. I have been to too many meetings, negotiated to many times, and watched FS people flat out lie. The most honorable amoung them cannot stand up to the green machine.

So for the inexperienced and youngsters out there, go ahead and try. Just watch out for the blades when the mower runs you over.

 

[Kong]

One more thing. This is all we friggin need, to pay our local law enforcement people to patrol Federal land. They can't control crime, drugs, violence any way. They can't deal with robbery/burglary auto theft. Every single agency wherever you go screams about being undermanned/staffed etc and they are expected to spend some time on this crap whenever some greenines get power in the city or county government.

It's an end run... pure and simple.

 

[Steamboat-RN]

I'm glad others see this move for the "end run" that it is. The greenies are planning on the fact that many trails are unmarked and subject to closure. The next move is to get snowmobiling areas made into "trails only" areas. Even with the recent push to get trails marked and mapped there will still be many that we will lose. This bill is a huge victory for the enviro-nazis. Now that it is "official" they will be able to sue agencies for not enforcing the bans. Even the most pro-motorized agencies will be forced to do the greenies bidding. The CSA had their heads firmly up their butts to back this one. They threw all the other OHVs under the bus to buy time. Shame on them! Once one group of users are banned, it becomes that much easier to ban the others.
Ritter needs to go! Please vote responsibly and every time you can. The people who are trying to take your land away do not take a day off. Neither should we.

 

[Xrider]

Ain't seen nuthun yet. Wait till Obama gets a couple years under his belt and has a nice staff of left wing eco nuts running the fed.

 

[travydog]

ok im stupid ive never hurd of 4 wheelers being called ohv's what does it stand for? off road hazardous vehicles?

 

[CB Rob]

All that Ritter did was allow Colorado State Parks Rangers to help enforce USFS policy. The USFS was asked/forced by congress to come up with a travel management plan for each forest district. They have done this for Grand Mesa and Umcompaghre already, and are currently working on the plan for Gunnison National forest. The rule currently states that travel is limited to existing routes, unless signed otherwise. Right now you can ride on any thing that resembles a trail unless its marked closed. Lots of new trails have been made in the last few years, ie dirtbike boondocking. These trails are lots of fun, but the people that manage our forests want to decide when and wher to build a new trail.
After they finish the travel management plan they will have a free b&W map of all the trails they decide to keep. I know that we will lose some great trails and old logging roads, but I also know that because of the public that got involved locally we will get to keep lots of great trails.
The Governer does not get to decide what trails we keep, thats up to all of the usfs rangers and biologists. They argued and discussed on a trail by trail basis all of last summer.
And.. The mt bikers did get lumped in with us motorized users, and their trails did get "managed" as well, and they did get pissed just like we did.

Fact is that times are changing and our forests are getting pretty busy. The ride where you want free for all was lots of fun, but I cant act surprized thats its over. I think the greenies are behind the rush to get this done, the USFS would have prefered to wait till they were done with the forest plan revision that they do every 20 years. You can also lay the blame on the retards that hill climb through the sage in their 4x4's, Himark on grassy hill sides while dirtbiking, hunt from an atv, make detours around every rut or puddle etc.

OHV does include mountain bikes, not snowmobiles.
They will be working on the Over Snow Vehicle winter use plan in a couple of years and will be taking comments from the public
http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/gmug/policy/travel_mgmt/index.shtml

 

[Kong]

1. All that Ritter did was allow Colorado State Parks Rangers to help enforce USFS policy.

2. The USFS was asked/forced by congress to come up with a travel management plan for each forest district.

3. The rule currently states that travel is limited to existing routes, unless signed otherwise. Right now you can ride on any thing that resembles a trail unless its marked closed. Lots of new trails have been made in the last few years, ie dirtbike boondocking. These trails are lots of fun, but the people that manage our forests want to decide when and where to build a new trail.


4. After they finish the travel management plan they will have a free b&W map of all the trails they decide to keep. I know that we will lose some great trails and old logging roads, but I also know that because of the public that got involved locally we will get to keep lots of great trails.



5. OHV does include mountain bikes, not snowmobiles.
They will be working on the Over Snow Vehicle winter use plan in a couple of years and will be taking comments from the public
http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/gmug/policy/travel_mgmt/index.shtml

1. Ritter authorized ALL law enforcement agencies to have legal authority to enforce the NEW trail use standard.

2. New travel management plans have NOTHING to do with this. The plans set rules and policies. (supposedly with the FS listening to local input) This is a COLORADO thing with cooperation etc from FS. The plans are going on nation wide.


3. The rule states?? What Rule?? Of course right now we are on existing routes until new forest plan adopted. Always has been. There are some old designated open riding areas... but they are designated. You haven't been able to just ride where you want legally since the early 70's.

Don't forget.. the roadless rule came in and closed lots of roads and trails. Also the FS just closes some trails on their own for BS reasons.

4. We get to keep....... Somehow to you that is a good thing? Spare me! We get to loose!!! Not keep. The FS in published documents stated that OHV use is increasing and snowmobiling is increasing. Period! They said that cross country skiing and snowshoeing/hiking is decreasing YET they keep decreasing motorized territory.

You think they aren't trying to drive motorized out?

Just look at CA 30 years ago. They crammed them in then said look at this area... look at the damage they have caused.


5. Wake UP! Snowmobiles ARE in the current plan. There is only ONE management plan for each forest and they cover everything. Hence to my point Divide and conquer. Snowmobile use IS in the plans right now.


This is a New standard. If the trail isn't specifically marked "to ride" then illegal. Hell 30% of the legal trails aren't marked in large areas.

NEW using local law to enforce.

You really want to pay your cops to patrol Fed land? You can afford that? You think the time will magically appear for cops to add to their scope of work? How about fuel costs, maint of vehilcles.... wear and tear using forest roads... having to buy more expensive vehicles now to handle FS roads, training costs?? on and on of unintended consequences.

The Democrats can't even run congress, they can't even run their own primarys... give me a big break.

CSA has betrayed their constituency and your brothers and sisters in the OHV community that have supported CSA for so long.

I'm making donations to my snowmobile clubs next year and not sending any money to CSA. Your registrations will still support grooming and the clubs.

CB Rob please quietly think about this move and our governments agencies actions.
We have not increased our access in 30 years+ Period!! We only loose trails and space.

Do the math. More wilderness, more federal takings, more state landless. you can't argue. That is the numbers. Where will it end? The greenies have made that perfectly clear in their manifestos.

I'm out.

 

[OuraySledder]

Pretty close Kong. This bill dfinately allows ALL law enforcement to patrol and write tickets.

It has everything to do with travel management plans, that is what the enforcement will be based on, the boundries and rules set forth in these plans.

The enforcement has been put in place with this bill. Now the mos effective way to fight is to get what you want from the travel management plans.

Over the snow is a seperate map, at least in the San Juan Forest. It is a different set of rules than over ground, I have both maps right here on the floor of my living room.

Very soon over ground OHV's will be relegated strictly to trails. I think it is correct to assume sleds are next for this treatment, though I stand up at every meeting and state there is a significant portion of sledders who neve ride trails as anything other than a necessary evil. I doubt they care but I say it anyway.

 

[Kong]

Pretty close Kong. This bill dfinately allows ALL law enforcement to patrol and write tickets.

It has everything to do with travel management plans, that is what the enforcement will be based on, the boundries and rules set forth in these plans.

The enforcement has been put in place with this bill. Now the mos effective way to fight is to get what you want from the travel management plans.

Over the snow is a seperate map, at least in the San Juan Forest. It is a different set of rules than over ground, I have both maps right here on the floor of my living room.

Very soon over ground OHV's will be relegated strictly to trails. I think it is correct to assume sleds are next for this treatment, though I stand up at every meeting and state there is a significant portion of sledders who neve ride trails as anything other than a necessary evil. I doubt they care but I say it anyway.

You are right technically different map, BUT part of the SAME 20 year plan. Still 1/2 million acre loss. Just a different chapter of the same book.

Net loss to everyone
Increased use
It is always a loss of land, no matter what map, what process, whatever.

Of course the Plan sets the rules.... but the enforcement vehicle is new and the law passed is a blanket for whatever plan is in use.

That's what I mean by not being linked directly to whatever plan they adopt,

BTW: Is anyone talking about the BLM and FS linking up yet? What is happening with that? ONE thing... more lost land use...... not an inch gained.

You bring up another good point. It appears that the FS/BLM wants sleds on trails only and keeps moving in that direction. They want confined and total control.

Reminder to all... this isn't wilderness area we are talking about. The FS is mandated to include motorized travel as a legitimate use. Do you think giving OHV & snowmobiles less and less land fullfills than mandate? They just keep coming up with ways to restrict it and Colorado public land stealers have convinced the libs to help them.

Sorry guys I'll get off the box, I am steaming over this stuff. 8 grandkids and this whole thing is so wrong. Everyone should write to CSA and to your reps... but that won't happen. A couple thousand letters would really make a difference.

I belong to two clubs and never once heard that CSA was considering supporting this legislation.

 

[spring snow hero]

colorado bans OHV's

you guys are lucky. at least you can still ride two strokes and flat heads. why did they just outlaw overhead valve engines?

 

[CB Rob]

I belong to two clubs and never once heard that CSA was considering supporting this legislation.

It was also supported by COHVCO and written by hunters and sportsmans clubs concerned about ATV's

 

[OuraySledder]

The BLM and USFS are already nearly one in the same in the San Juan Forest area. Managed by the same group, in some cases the same person with both a USFS title and a BLM title.

I am a CSA club Pres, with a close relationship with both the state Pres and VP and I had to ask

 

[BackCountryBob]

Yammerhammer is correct--the trails have been closed unless posted "open" since 1978 when RARE II was supposed to be the end of wilderness designation game--that is until Clinton decreed (by Presidental order at the end of his term) that all Forests had to have a new forest plan each 8 years (my memory is alittle fuzzy about the timing but you get the jist).

The Sierra Club runs the Department of the Interior (Forest Service and BLM) so you know that whatever they promise you now is a down right lie.

At a meeting in Cheyenne 3 years ago the Sierra Club's ATTORNEY stated that the only FS roads to remain open would be those which would be passable by 2 wheel drive sedans(his BMW). We were asked to inventory all the known roads and trails but no one cooperated knowing full well that the Sierra Club would use our inventory against us. I think Google Earth has replaced us anyway.

The snowmobile demographics are changing with a major influx of middle aged
ex-skiers joining the sport. Their not gona be happy campers when they find out there is no place to use their recreational cash out lay of $60,000+ for truck, sleds and trailers. And most of them will have no one to blame but themselves

 

[Steamboat-RN]

It was also supported by COHVCO and written by hunters and sportsmans clubs concerned about ATV's

I would be interested in seeing some valid documentation on this point.

Laying the blame solely on 4x4s and ATVs that stray off trail is far too simplistic. Off trail riding does not help our cause and it gives ammo to those trying to kill motorized use on public land. But it is not the real reason for the closures. The simple fact is that the enviro-zealots will use anything to promote their religion. They wave photos of damage to their god "mother earth" and demand that the government do something to protect her from the public.
Their next move is going to be law suits against any agency that fails to actively enforce this bill. They will seek injunctions to close any area that they feel is not enforced.
Der Furher Ritter is the best politician their enviro money can buy.

Bottom line is that we WILL lose access because of this bill. A trail here and a trail there. One more nail in the coffin.

Sad thing is that there are sledders and OHV riders that support this bill because of a misguided belief that by doing so will somehow make the enviros think we are not so bad after all.

What color is the sky in your world?

 

[Dogmeat]

God I just love having idiot ****ing democrats in positions of power

I know I don't live in CO, but the crap that ******* pulls effects me over here in Utah even

 

[Kong]

The BLM and USFS are already nearly one in the same in the San Juan Forest area. Managed by the same group, in some cases the same person with both a USFS title and a BLM title.

I am a CSA club Pres, with a close relationship with both the state Pres and VP and I had to ask

I know them also. I have worked with the VP since 1996 and have served with him in his club. I have a great deal of respect for him.

I know the Pres also. I started out supporting her, but don't any more.

I still disagree 1000% with CSA's capitualtion and I don't care what other groups backed the Colorado bill.

The FS and BLM shared policies and admin is a fairly new development. The result of which is the the BLM is becoming more restrictive.

 

[OuraySledder]

Both are women now, have been for a couple of years I think the fact that they are female has helped us some because they work well with the predominantly female forest staff in my area.

I agree, I think this was an absolutely stupid bill to support, I did not support the idea at all. I agree with Steamboat, just another nail in the coffin, and I am at a loss as to how this helps any snowmobilers, even the trail riders.