ceramic coating

[i'llDooit]

anyone running ceramic coating on the stock xm pipe and after market can?
any hiccups from the motor running the ceramic?

 

[winter brew]

We have done it on several sleds, no problems. We did the true grey ceramic, not the shiny cerma-crome. Either will be fine but the true ceramic reflects heat better, just not as durable or pretty. We did the stock pipe, not the stock silencer.

 

[i'llDooit]

nice. I imagine that, with the c3 belt system would make a snappy happy sled

 

[redbull660]

We have done it on several sleds, no problems. We did the true grey ceramic, not the shiny cerma-crome. Either will be fine but the true ceramic reflects heat better, just not as durable or pretty. We did the stock pipe, not the stock silencer.

The shiny chrome stuff isn't as good, it looks good for a while but will eventually show rust. Its also not as good a ceramic due to the fact that to get that shiny look you have to polish the outer layer off and that alone lowers its heat retaining ability. If I remember correctly its only good to 1100 degrees to where the tungsten, grey and black are good for up to 1800 degrees.

 

[CCPerformance.com]

Ceramic Coating Stock & Aftermarket Sled Pipes

anyone running ceramic coating on the stock xm pipe and after market can?
any hiccups from the motor running the ceramic?

The sooner you get the heat shields off of a Ski-Doo and coat the pipes, the better. For whatever reason, Ski-Doo's pipes seem to be the most vulnerable to corrosion damage. As you can see below, this pipe experienced significant corrosion damage under the heat shield. Even more unfortunate is the customer could not be talked out of "Bright Ceramic" on his pipe despite being told it would look aweful....

It used to be Arctic-Cat for many years but SD has been the unfortunate leader in the corrosion race for many years. Most people never think to remove their heat shields for inspection or coating until they have a clam shell failure or its too late and they have a pipe crack / leak. At that point most of the damage is done.

Bottom line is its beneficial to coating both OEM and aftermarket. Even if you don't intend on ceramic coating your pipes its a good idea to inspect them on a regular basis and at least put some BBQ paint on them if you're seeing corrosion issues occur.

NOTE: If you choose to go with the traditional bright Ceramic Coating, DO NOT re-install the heat shields. Doing so will overheat the coating which will best case result in dulling / dis-coloration and worst case cause blistering and de-lamination.

 

[redbull660]

The sooner you get the heat shields off of a Ski-Doo and coat the pipes, the better. For whatever reason, Ski-Doo's pipes seem to be the most vulnerable to corrosion damage. As you can see below, this pipe experienced significant corrosion damage under the heat shield. Even more unfortunate is the customer could not be talked out of "Bright Ceramic" on his pipe despite being told it would look aweful....

It used to be Arctic-Cat for many years but SD has been the unfortunate leader in the corrosion race for many years. Most people never think to remove their heat shields for inspection or coating until they have a clam shell failure or its too late and they have a pipe crack / leak. At that point most of the damage is done.

Bottom line is its beneficial to coating both OEM and aftermarket. Even if you don't intend on ceramic coating your pipes its a good idea to inspect them on a regular basis and at least put some BBQ paint on them if you're seeing corrosion issues occur.

NOTE: If you choose to go with the traditional bright Ceramic Coating, DO NOT re-install the heat shields. Doing so will overheat the coating which will best case result in dulling / dis-coloration and worst case cause blistering and de-lamination.

I completely agree, well put!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[i'llDooit]

how about the black ceramic coating? would you suggest running the heat shield?

I had the chrome ceramic on my 06 and had the corrosion issue. I would only figure keeping the heat in with the heat shield will be the better way to go...
love the snappy throttle from the ceramic coating...

I will pull my heat shield off for inspection. thanks

 

[CCPerformance.com]

Bright / Polished Ceramic Coating vs High Temp Ceramic Coating

The shiny chrome stuff isn't as good, it looks good for a while but will eventually show rust. Its also not as good a ceramic due to the fact that to get that shiny look you have to polish the outer layer off and that alone lowers its heat retaining ability. If I remember correctly its only good to 1100 degrees to where the tungsten, grey and black are good for up to 1800 degrees.

I'd respectfully disagree with that analysis. On the contrary, traditional "Bright Ceramic Coating" or "shiny chrome stuff" as you describe it, actually provides a better thermal barrier than most single stage high temp ceramics. The reason for this is that it encompasses a couple different layers of barrier. Underneath the bright aluminum layer is very effective thermal thermal combined with the reflective aluminum, heat dissipating and corrosion resistance aluminum layers.

Technically, a Bright Ceramic Pipe is "burnished" to provide that chrome like top layer. It may seem that the pipe is polished solely to provide the "chrome like appearance" when in fact the purpose of the burnishing / polishing process is to "beat down" and close all the little holes in the surface of the ceramic coating. This process does NOT remove any functional aspect of the ceramic coating. Its sole purpose is to SEAL the outer surface of the ceramic coating.

As to the reason why many Bright Ceramic pipes end up rusting, this is most often caused by OVER HEATING the pipe (See Below). To a lesser extent, part preparation and overall pipe condition play a part in this as well. Bright Ceramics biggest enemies are BOTH "too lean" and "too fat/rich" tuning conditions. A too lean condition and you will dull the pipe out from the head flange to approx mid pipe. An overly rich condition will dull the pipe out from mid pipe to about the silencer. Once the pipes are over-heated the pores on the surface of the ceramic coating will open up which exposes the metal substrate to corrosion. This is the little rusty blister marks you often see on older pipes. This is also why bright ceramic is NOT recommended for either turbo or supercharged applications.

As you've noted, many sleds run too hot for traditional bright ceramic coatings so it is advantages to run the satin high temp ceramics. Bright ceramic is rated at 1000F-1100F metal temp which translates to about 1300F-1770F EGT's. Whereas High Temp Ceramics are rated at about 1700F-1800F metal temp and 2000F EGT's. We recommend all turbo and supercharged applications use a High Temp Ceramic to prevent coating failure..

NOTE-if the pipe hasn't been SEVERELY over heated you can go back and polish the pipes with a quality NON ABRASIVE aluminum polish and bring it back to its original luster. In severe situations you can move up to a more abrasive polish if the non abrasive is cutting it, but start out with the least aggressive type first. The aluminum layer on these pipes is VERY thin and therefore very easy to burn through if you get overly aggressive. As standard maintenance we recommend lightly polishing your a pipe at least once a season to keep it looking new. This also prevents the sporadic surface rusting caused from iron particles that fly around under the hood landing on your pipes that show as little rust specs.

High Temp Ceramic Coatings

Over Heated Exhaust Pipes (turbo pipes from a class 8 truck)

New Engine Fired up TOO LEAN

 

[CCPerformance.com]

how about the black ceramic coating? would you suggest running the heat shield?

I had the chrome ceramic on my 06 and had the corrosion issue. I would only figure keeping the heat in with the heat shield will be the better way to go...
love the snappy throttle from the ceramic coating...

I will pull my heat shield off for inspection. thanks

Re-installing the heat shields on pipes coated with High Temp Ceramic is usually not a problem and you do get the benefit of added thermal insulation. Depending on what material was used, you're getting both thermal and corrosion protection so you're pretty well protected. Keep in mind, even though though the pipe is protected you're still exposing it to an environment of hot / cold thermal shocks and a nearly constant exposure to a "wet towel" being wrapped around it from the wet heat shield insulation. Its still wise to check in on the pipe periodically.

The primary reason re-installing heat shields back on Bright Ceramic Pipes is problematic is because the elevated temps open the pores up on the coating allowing the moisture from the heat shield insulation to make its way to the metal substrate. Not always, in that no two sleds are tuned alike but often enough to be concerned about. We've seen many that were merely dulled from the temp slightly with no rust damage and that is perfectly fine and functional.

 

[i'llDooit]

Re-installing the heat shields on pipes coated with High Temp Ceramic is usually not a problem and you do get the benefit of added thermal insulation. Depending on what material was used, you're getting both thermal and corrosion protection so you're pretty well protected. Keep in mind, even though though the pipe is protected you're still exposing it to an environment of hot / cold thermal shocks and a nearly constant exposure to a "wet towel" being wrapped around it from the wet heat shield insulation. Its still wise to check in on the pipe periodically.

The primary reason re-installing heat shields back on Bright Ceramic Pipes is problematic is because the elevated temps open the pores up on the coating allowing the moisture from the heat shield insulation to make its way to the metal substrate. Not always, in that no two sleds are tuned alike but often enough to be concerned about. We've seen many that were merely dulled from the temp slightly with no rust damage and that is perfectly fine and functional.

great info. thanks

what is your recommendation for a stock pipe, shiny or dull?

 

[CCPerformance.com]

great info. thanks

what is your recommendation for a stock pipe, shiny or dull?

Any of the high temp colors (satin) would be relatively problem free with no worries of overheating. You can glow these ceramics "red hot" and they will come back to color. Although I do a lot of Ski Doo pipes I don't have any specific application info on this model as a mountain sled for bright ceramic. Most times we receive pipes without knowing the actual sled they've come off of.

With that I would throw the question back out to the forum. If anyone has a bright ceramic coated OE or after market pipe on this sled that is maintaining its "bright appearance" you'd be alright.

I forgot to mention earlier that most any pipe, header, etc. coated with Bright Ceramic Coating with typically dull "slightly" approximately 4-8 inches from the flame front. This is normal. It's only a problem when the dulling becomes severe or it reaches much further than the 4-8 inch mark previously mentioned.

The header below would be an example of "severe dulling" in that the customer had these headers on a supercharged application. This shows both extremes simultaneously. The beginning of the primaries are dulled from excessive temps and back pressure. Mid-primaries and collector areas are damaged from being "too rich" as most supercharged applications are intentionally run "rich" to safeguard against burning down pistons in the event of a "too lean" scenario. As you can see, both are detrimental to this type of header coating in this application.

 

[winter brew]

I'd respectfully disagree with that analysis. On the contrary, traditional "Bright Ceramic Coating" or "shiny chrome stuff" as you describe it, actually provides a better thermal barrier than most single stage high temp ceramics. The reason for this is that it encompasses a couple different layers of barrier. Underneath the bright aluminum layer is very effective thermal thermal combined with the reflective aluminum, heat dissipating and corrosion resistance aluminum layers.

Technically, a Bright Ceramic Pipe is "burnished" to provide that chrome like top layer. It may seem that the pipe is polished solely to provide the "chrome like appearance" when in fact the purpose of the burnishing / polishing process is to "beat down" and close all the little holes in the surface of the ceramic coating. This process does NOT remove any functional aspect of the ceramic coating. Its sole purpose is to SEAL the outer surface of the ceramic coating.

As to the reason why many Bright Ceramic pipes end up rusting, this is most often caused by OVER HEATING the pipe (See Below). To a lesser extent, part preparation and overall pipe condition play a part in this as well. Bright Ceramics biggest enemies are BOTH "too lean" and "too fat/rich" tuning conditions. A too lean condition and you will dull the pipe out from the head flange to approx mid pipe. An overly rich condition will dull the pipe out from mid pipe to about the silencer. Once the pipes are over-heated the pores on the surface of the ceramic coating will open up which exposes the metal substrate to corrosion. This is the little rusty blister marks you often see on older pipes. This is also why bright ceramic is NOT recommended for either turbo or supercharged applications.

As you've noted, many sleds run too hot for traditional bright ceramic coatings so it is advantages to run the satin high temp ceramics. Bright ceramic is rated at 1000F-1100F metal temp which translates to about 1300F-1770F EGT's. Whereas High Temp Ceramics are rated at about 1700F-1800F metal temp and 2000F EGT's. We recommend all turbo and supercharged applications use a High Temp Ceramic to prevent coating failure..

NOTE-if the pipe hasn't been SEVERELY over heated you can go back and polish the pipes with a quality NON ABRASIVE aluminum polish and bring it back to its original luster. In severe situations you can move up to a more abrasive polish if the non abrasive is cutting it, but start out with the least aggressive type first. The aluminum layer on these pipes is VERY thin and therefore very easy to burn through if you get overly aggressive. As standard maintenance we recommend lightly polishing your a pipe at least once a season to keep it looking new. This also prevents the sporadic surface rusting caused from iron particles that fly around under the hood landing on your pipes that show as little rust specs.

High Temp Ceramic Coatings

Over Heated Exhaust Pipes (turbo pipes from a class 8 truck)

New Engine Fired up TOO LEAN

Good info, thank you! Our local coating shop tells us the black/grey ceramic reflects heat better or keeps more heat in the pipe than the cerma crome. They do the coatings for many major automotive header manufacturers so i would assume they know what they are talking about but you explanations make sense and I wouldn't disagree.
One other problem I have experienced with the "shiny stuff" is the tumbling process used to polish parts with ceramic balls seems to harden the material.....or possibly the whole process. I have had a few pipes and y-pipes crack after being coated, especially pipes that were a few years old. Just something to be aware of and watch for. Perhaps a few bands on the pipe to reduce harmonic vibration would help.

 

[CCPerformance.com]

Good info, thank you! Our local coating shop tells us the black/grey ceramic reflects heat better or keeps more heat in the pipe than the cerma crome. They do the coatings for many major automotive header manufacturers so i would assume they know what they are talking about but you explanations make sense and I wouldn't disagree.
One other problem I have experienced with the "shiny stuff" is the tumbling process used to polish parts with ceramic balls seems to harden the material.....or possibly the whole process. I have had a few pipes and y-pipes crack after being coated, especially pipes that were a few years old. Just something to be aware of and watch for. Perhaps a few bands on the pipe to reduce harmonic vibration would help.

It really depends what material they are using in that there are many varieties of "black / grey". A little research goes a long way into coaters. Most "non bright" ceramics can handle higher temperatures, i.e. 1500F - 2000F+, but to say they are more effective is not always the case.

Playing devils advocate, we've seen shops recommend the basic black / grey ceramics or even "high temp powder coating" over any ceramic purely because they don't have the capability to do bright ceramic coating or perhaps any ceramic coating for that matter. The non bright is often times easier to coat in that it doesn't involve polishing as well. Polishing / burnishing the bright ceramic coating requires a tumbling machine that can run anywhere from 10k-50k+ so most smaller and backyard coating operations do not have polishers. You can technically hand polish a bright ceramic pipe but it is NOT the best way to go about it. As I said earlier, the sole purpose of burnishing / polishing is to close the pores in the surface of the ceramic coating and hand polishing does NOT do this effectively enough.

 

[CCPerformance.com]

One other problem I have experienced with the "shiny stuff" is the tumbling process used to polish parts with ceramic balls seems to harden the material.....or possibly the whole process. I have had a few pipes and y-pipes crack after being coated, especially pipes that were a few years old. Just something to be aware of and watch for. Perhaps a few bands on the pipe to reduce harmonic vibration would help.

I forgot this part. If anything, the whole process involved in bright ceramic coating would actually "stress relieve" your parts. The first thing that is done, well should be done, is the pipes go into a Thermal Degreasing Oven / burn off oven. This heats the parts up to 650F - 900F to burn away all of the paints, oils, organics.

The polishing process is "relatively" harmless if done properly. Done "improperly" it is possible to damage parts. Normally you just put your pipe in the polisher and it barrel rolls around for a period of time as the media shakes across the part. If you happen to have a big pipe or part tumbling in the machine it is possible for the part to get snagged or hung up on something at which point you have 1000's of pounds of pressure being exerted on the part in a potentially vulnerable way. Although this is "possible" it is rare and unlikely. We've been ceramic coating pipes for nearly 15 years and NEVER broke or cracked a pipe.

The most common cause for these types of cracking issues is a result of the pipe itself. If you have a "thin" race pipe or thin / weakened pipe in general it is VERY likely that the pipe is going to crack at some point whether you coat it or not. This is more likely with pipes exposed to excessive vibration, engine movement or thermal shock. For instance, outside of custom made pipes I have never seen thinner pipes than AAEN pipes. Nor have a not seen a thin AAEN pipe cracked, repaired or ready to crack.......

 

[winter brew]

I should clarify, the pipe and ypipe cracked after a few rides, not during the coating process. Our local shop has a tumbler, they do car headers and other large items.

 

[CCPerformance.com]

I should clarify, the pipe and ypipe cracked after a few rides, not during the coating process. Our local shop has a tumbler, they do car headers and other large items.

I understood what you meant. Though I'm surprised to hear you had both pipe and Y fail. That's pretty unusual. What was the application and what pipes?

 

[i'llDooit]

I understood what you meant. Though I'm surprised to hear you had both pipe and Y fail. That's pretty unusual. What was the application and what pipes?

also, was it the shiny, or dull ceramic?

 

[CCPerformance.com]

Bright / Polished, hence the reason it was polished...........

 

[wildcard28]

CCPerformance.com, great info.

How much do you charge to coat like my Rev 800 pipe with the black coating? this coating would be sufficient for temps?

I could run the pipe with no shielding put back on correct?

Thanks, Wildcard

 

[i'llDooit]

Bright / Polished, hence the reason it was polished...........

that's what I figured, but just clearifying.

is the tumbeling process to polish the parts something that could damage the y pipe?