Carrying avalanche gear
- Thread starter Cat-man-Doo
- Start date
And this is 100% why carrying gear is important... Mistakes are made from amateurs to professionals. To get the interaction of the weather, snowpack, human factor and terrain right 100% of the time is nearly impossible.
To travel in avalanche terrain (slopes greater than 25 degrees) and not have the gear and/or NOT KNOW HOW TO USE IT, is reckless. The gear isn't there to give you a sense of security to allow you to ride in an area you determine is prone to sliding that day - It's there for if a mistake is already made.
Maybe we should group this into two discussions:
-If all you are doing is staying in areas with slopes less than 25 degrees with no potential for sliding - sure put your avalanche gear wherever you want including the truck.
-If you have to be in avalanche terrain at all, or travel under or around avalanche terrain that has the ability to reach you on run out - wear your gear on your body.
Sure, 99% of the time you can travel through avalanche terrain you deem as passable and nothing will happen, but what happens when that 1% happens? Do you want a chance at survival or do you want to throw the towel in right off the bat? Go re-read my original post and you'll see my answer. Being prepared doesn't mean you are scared, you are mitigating your risks, and we all have different levels of risk we are comfortable with.
"An avalanche accident presents a unique set of challenges for rescue workers. Asphyxia is the most common cause of mortality in avalanche victims, accounting for 75% of deaths. Asphyxiation can occur via three main mechanisms: inhaled snow or other debris blocks an airway; water vapor from expelled air freezes and forms an ice mask around the face; or oxygen deprivation caused by having to rebreathe expired air. Because of the dangers of asphyxiation, time plays a crucial role in survival rates. If completely buried, a victim has a greater than 90% survival rate if they are found and extricated within about 15 minutes, but only a 30% survival rate if the rescue time stretches to 30 minutes. In addition, many avalanche victims suffer life-threatening injuries during their avalanche involvement. Data from the US and Europe indicate that trauma is the primary cause of death for approximately 25% of avalanche fatalities." - “Wilderness Medical Society Practice Guidelines for Prevention and Management of Avalanche and Nonavalanche Snow Burial Accidents,” by Christopher Van Tilburg, MD
So now lets look at these facts: With no avalanche gear the survival rate will be near 0% because you are totally relying on luck to stumble upon a hand, foot, etc to then extract the person without gear. With gear, if you survive the trauma, which is only a 25% chance you don't, then you have 75% chance of survival remaining if your group is also wearing gear and know how to preform a rescue. This doesn't change how I will route plan or make me anymore confident traveling avalanche terrain, but it sure is a good reason to wear the gear. To say a beacon is just for body recovery is totally inaccurate.
I agree with you that carrying avalanche gear doesn't make you invincible. Avalanche safety gear is not like a life jacket on the water, the life jacket will prevent you from drowning when worn properly, - avy gear doesn't prevent you from being in an avalanche or dying. The only thing it does is ensure that if and when you are in an avalanche, you have the highest chance of survival possible. Obviously we all would love to avoid being in an avalanche but there is inherent risk in riding in and around avy terrain and decisions made all day long that could result in being caught in a slide. Having the gear absolutely does not ensure your survival, you may have $3k in safety gear and still die. That fact is you did everything you could, as far as having the right safety gear, to make the chance of survival as high as possible if a mistake was made and you ended up in a slide.
I have run into riders uneducated in avalanche safety that thought everything is going to be fine even if they were in a slide because they had a "bag." Obviously incorrect. Educating these folks on avalanche safety would do a lot more to keep them safe than any gear would.
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So summarize that incredibly long winded response...
You pack a bunch of gear for the 1% chance (or much less statistically) you might be caught in an avalanche.
You consider not wearing gear for that slim chance "reckless". Yet I would be willing to bet you do not mitigate everyday risks to anywhere near that extent, nor do any of us, making everybody "reckless" pretty much everyday.
If all of that gear makes you feel better, by all means wear it.
The notion that it is reckless though, that is just fear mongering. Like swimming without a life jacket is reckless because of that faint chance you could drown. Maybe you just wear those kids floaties on your arms...lol. I still just find the whole argument pathetic at best. Post some real stats on deaths vs days in the snow. The chances are so minute, the fear you spread over this is ridiculous.
You pack a bunch of gear for the 1% chance (or much less statistically) you might be caught in an avalanche.
You consider not wearing gear for that slim chance "reckless". Yet I would be willing to bet you do not mitigate everyday risks to anywhere near that extent, nor do any of us, making everybody "reckless" pretty much everyday.
If all of that gear makes you feel better, by all means wear it.
The notion that it is reckless though, that is just fear mongering. Like swimming without a life jacket is reckless because of that faint chance you could drown. Maybe you just wear those kids floaties on your arms...lol. I still just find the whole argument pathetic at best. Post some real stats on deaths vs days in the snow. The chances are so minute, the fear you spread over this is ridiculous.
Yes.
My personal decisions on my day to day life do not make any difference in whether or not carrying avalanche gear saves lives... The topic of this conversation.
If you wear avalanche safety gear or not, I don't care. That is your decision.
To spread inaccurate information about avalanche safety is where a line should be drawn here and in our mountain communities. You have not backed up any of your far out claims with any facts because there will be none to support your stance, while I have quickly provided a cited fact and given a first hand experience to the benefits of wearing/carrying safety gear.
What's the fear I'm spreading? There is no fear in the fact that avalanche safety gear saves lives.
So why do you choose to so vehemently defend carrying avy gear? There are lots of things in life more dangerous than sledding in the mountains. Do you also try to justify helmets to Harley riders on their forums and arm floaties on swimming forums? Or is it just here where you choose to have a self righteous attitude?
The ACTUAL original topic of this conversation was whether or not it was OK to carry your gear/shovel on the sled rather than on your back. NOT whether or not gear could save a life. Try to pay attention...
I agree completely, and you have not shown anything other than avalaches are possible, bad decisions can lead you a person being caught in one, thank you captain obvious
The misinformation is what you are spreading, the notion that you will be safe if you wear the gear. That is a bald faced lie. You still only have a VERY slim chance of survival with the gear on.
I have not seen you cite a single statistic on the actual dangers of mtn sledding, NOBODY in this whole thread has been able to quantify that with any actual factual number. You have provided conjecture based on experience, as have I. I do not see where your experience is any more valid than mine, other than it is more dramatic.
The fear being spread is the notion that without gear, you will die on an avalanche on the mountains. When you guys say "if and when", that is the clear suggestion that it is unavoidable which simply is not true. Avalanche gear COULD save a life, and has saved some.
The guy who has ridden the mountains for 50 years and never had to dig anyone out isn't a valid testament to the fact that it can be done safely?
On the other hand I think in many cases it emboldens individuals to take chances they otherwise would not leading them into bad situations where they may need the gear.
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You obviously are either a) lucky or b) genuinely don't ride in avalanche terrain. It's really that simple. Where we ride, avalanche terrain is unavoidable.
In our area, literally every single rider I have ever talked to has seen an avalanche happen very close to them, had a close call with an avalanche, dug someone out, or been in one themselves. Every Single Person. These are people that have been riding the same area their whole lives just like you.
The notion that there are many things more dangerous than riding in avalanche terrain without safety gear in daily life is ridiculous. Exactly what are you doing on a daily basis that has higher than 1% chance of dying every time you do it?
Base jumping: 0.04%
Driving a motorcycle 100 miles: 0.004%
Scuba Diving: 0.0005%
Flying 1000 miles: 0.00003%
Just here.
You're going to have to go re-read my posts. I state pretty clearly, "Wear your gear on your body."
My posts have been on topic. I'm not going to go off on a tangent about how I only ride trees and how rare slides are in the trees (also incorrect unless the trees are arms-width apart, but not going there), or being hit by buses, car seats, seat belts, the government, harleys, and probably the flat earth theory next.
That's the only thing you can pull from my posts - that avalanches are possible? It's hard to have conversations with people who ignore the facts.
Again, as I stated earlier many different ways - wearing the gear is not guaranteeing your safety but it increases your chance of survival. Where is the bald faced lie in that?
And you could still die with the gear. No one has said other wise because that is simply not true that you will be safe with the gear. People die with the gear every year. "Could" is enough for me to wear a beacon, shovel, probe on my body.
Why do you need a statistic of the dangers of sledding? A cited statistic that you have a 75% chance of survival if found within the first 15 minutes is still not convincing enough to wear gear? The mountains don’t give a **** about statistics. I’m not going to change my route planning or safety precautions because only 1/xxx snowmobilers get killed by avalanches.
No. It's a different time now than it was 50 years ago. I would guarantee your old buddy and my riding style are completely different and that's not because I wear my gear on my body. Sleds are capable of getting into avalanche terrain much easier and faster than the old John Deeres. Take a look at the picture I attached.
You know... Avalanche safety gear is a lot different than it was 50 years ago. Go take a look at what's out there now. It's pretty light now and almost anyone can get trained to use it.
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LOL!! You've gone off about totally irrelevant things with false equivalencies in every post.
J
Jaynelson
Well-known member
I always roll with avy gear...haven't done the airbag pack yet...have a non airbag pack I'm quite fond of, but I think this is the year.
I do get a little eye-roll-y at all the gadgets you *should* bring with you to ride these days. It's all a good idea....but it does take a little something away maintaining, bringing, and gearing up with....gear, beacon, probe, ABS pack, leg armor, arm armor, chest protector, neck brace, GPS, SPOT, cell phone, radios, spares of everything, blah, blah, blah. Yes it's all good stuff....but I just don't always feel like dragging that much junk with me.
I don't ride without avy gear....but I do feel like there are areas and routes in the mountains that can be ridden without, and not be reckless. Maybe not ideal....but not death wish either. Why you would bother if you own the gear anyways....not sure. Just like I don't wear my seat belt on slow speed dirt roads....but do on the pavement. I have an area I ride solo once/twice a year if I'm satisfied with conditions....not too far from town, decent cell coverage, limited avy path exposure, ability to walk out if needed yada yada. Again not ideal, but can still do it relatively safely under the right circumstances IMO.
Once you get used to wearing/bringing it you feel pretty naked without.
I do get a little eye-roll-y at all the gadgets you *should* bring with you to ride these days. It's all a good idea....but it does take a little something away maintaining, bringing, and gearing up with....gear, beacon, probe, ABS pack, leg armor, arm armor, chest protector, neck brace, GPS, SPOT, cell phone, radios, spares of everything, blah, blah, blah. Yes it's all good stuff....but I just don't always feel like dragging that much junk with me.
I don't ride without avy gear....but I do feel like there are areas and routes in the mountains that can be ridden without, and not be reckless. Maybe not ideal....but not death wish either. Why you would bother if you own the gear anyways....not sure. Just like I don't wear my seat belt on slow speed dirt roads....but do on the pavement. I have an area I ride solo once/twice a year if I'm satisfied with conditions....not too far from town, decent cell coverage, limited avy path exposure, ability to walk out if needed yada yada. Again not ideal, but can still do it relatively safely under the right circumstances IMO.
Once you get used to wearing/bringing it you feel pretty naked without.
As for shovels in packs or on the tunnel...
It seems, often enough, the preferred way to get a sled (mine or someone else's) unstuck is always done by rolling over or stomping around. Digging with the shovels is only when I have to. If I have already postholed over to a stuck sled, I don't want to posthole back to mine to get a shovel. Then again, I am short and lazy!
It seems, often enough, the preferred way to get a sled (mine or someone else's) unstuck is always done by rolling over or stomping around. Digging with the shovels is only when I have to. If I have already postholed over to a stuck sled, I don't want to posthole back to mine to get a shovel. Then again, I am short and lazy!
J
Jaynelson
Well-known member
Occasionally I like it. I pick mellow routes, days with bomber avy conditions, don't do anything rowdy. Just basically go for a cruise to eat some lunch with a view. I know it's not ideal....but honestly after many years of doing all sorts of activities in the bush....the need to improvise, sort stuff out on the fly, plan trips appropriate to the conditions and your party (or lack thereof) is kinda part of it for me. Making "unsafe" things "safe enough" with some good planning and practices is a little challenge.....no death wish by any stretch.
I know a few old dudes who solo to gnarly remote spots on the reg...they are just used to it. I'm not that ballsy, but if that's how ya live, that's how ya live.
I went solo just three times...
All test runs. Just trying some tunning or clutching. First 2 times engine went down(skidoo). Luckily after i climbed out of a bowl. Was able to get a tow. Had to walk 3miles back to the truck the second time to get someone with a sled to go and tow mine back. Didn't go solo for 10yrs because of that.
3rd time i was on a Cat so, no problems....
I told a few people where i was going and when i would be back or come get me..
[emoji12]
All test runs. Just trying some tunning or clutching. First 2 times engine went down(skidoo). Luckily after i climbed out of a bowl. Was able to get a tow. Had to walk 3miles back to the truck the second time to get someone with a sled to go and tow mine back. Didn't go solo for 10yrs because of that.
3rd time i was on a Cat so, no problems....
I told a few people where i was going and when i would be back or come get me..
[emoji12]
There were 2 guys in the bottom, i was in my early 20's.
I needed the hill for testing.
I learned one jet size is just enough to burn up pistons............and don't drop into anything when alone.
Over 7,000 miles on that 583 with twins...
[emoji12]
Guilty.
I can ride seven days a week and I’m not riding because I can’t find someone to come with me. Routes, lines, choices are different.
BUT..... that one truly is an individual choice. Funny thing is, I still wear all my avy gear ??. Never know who or what I may come across.
When riding solo, no one is depending on me. I’m on my own.
Well first of all there is no statistic that says riding in the mountains has a 1% chance of death. That would mean one death for every 100 riding days. Sledders would be dropping like flies... I would bet it is a LOT safer than base jumping or even riding a motorcycle.
You got snookered by the hype on that one...
I would also suggest that if you see that many avys, and have that many issues riding that you are making bad riding decisions. It is as simple as that...
Actually the trees we normally ride are easily that tight, and I understand why you wouldn't "go there" lol
^^^^My personal favorite... My old buddy would likely ride your sally a$$ into the ground.
Proof that the gear has emboldened you to the point where your "riding style" requires it.
Thank you for making my point.
