Carrying avalanche gear

[Big10inch]

Wow...

So you think I should believe the hype over my own long term experience?


Maybe 10 accidents a year out of a couple hundred thousand cumulative sledding days justifies the fear spread? I would be very curious to see real numbers on this. I do not think it is nearly as dangerous as some people espouse. Potentially dangerous but, that again is based on a lot of unsubstantiated fear.

 

[goridedoo]

I think people WAY over think the whole avy thing. In 15 years of mountain riding we have never had to use a beacon or dig anybody out of an avalanche. Can it happen? Certainly and it takes a few lives each year but driving your car or eating fatty foods are both arguably more dangerous as they take far more lives than sledding.


I fully expect those who fear everything to respond to this. I was once one of the fearful, wore an avy pack before they were cool. Now it sits on a shelf, haven't worn it for years. I don't wear a pack as it hinders my riding enjoyment. I carry a shovel on my sled for when I or someone else gets stuck.


Back in the day it was hi-marking, and it was probably pretty dangerous at times. These days it is in the trees where slides are extremely rare. hauling all that extra crap around just doesn't make sense to me anymore. It just never gets used. I figure if it is my time, it just is, pretty much the same feeling from the rest of the group. The most dangerous guy in our group used to ride with all the gear, take all the classes but he ended up dead from a heart attack when most of us were certain he would die on a sled one day.


I think most of you worry way to much, or you are taking stupid chances. Quit worrying and enjoy your rides... All that junk on your back is no insurance at all that you wont die that day. Safety is a myth sold by fear mongers. Use your head, that is the best safety feature you have. If that fails, I am pretty sure we can chalk it up to natural selection. Most sled deaths are not accidents but seriously poor decision making. Most of them carried the gear and it didn't do a damn bit of good...

LOL the day one of your riding buddies dies because you don’t have shovel to dig out his slowly suffocating body is gonna be a real sad wake up call. Its not about YOU and its sad that some people dont get that. Ignorance at its best.... but hey it was his time OH WELL.

 

[Big10inch]

...and you could step off the curb tomorrow and be run over by a bus.


Honestly, how about a discussion based on actual facts regarding the actual risks? This notion that I am selfish and ignorant is ridiculous, you do not know me or the people I ride with at all. You do not know where we ride or how we ride. You are making some pretty bold assumptions. It is so ridiculous that you do not even know what precautions we do take and you want to call me ignorant. That sir is the pot calling the kettle black if I have ever seen it.


I think some REAL education on the subject would be nice. This fear mongering is what is truly ridiculous.

 

[goridedoo]

I know you ride in Soco and I know I have friends who lost a friend in Soco a few years ago just feet from the trail because they couldnt get him dug up in time, they did not have shovels. Its real and it does happen.

What is actual education gonna do for you? Clearly you are unreceptive to it.

I have been in places on the trail hundreds of yards from the nearest hill where you can look up and see branches broke 30ft up from a previous slide. I also know people ride on that trail all the time with out beacons or gear. Its just not fair to SAR and folks who end up in a probe line the next day and get to dig up a blue body. Not fair to the mothers, wives, and children. It happens every year.

Fear mongering... call us all chicken chits for using our heads and wanting to come home with the same amount of people we went out with. I guess I never buckle up on the drive west, maybe I’m the ignorant one, but then again me wearing my seatbelt has nothing to do with whether or not the guy in the passenger seat lives.

https://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/acc/acc_report.php?acc_id=597&accfm=inv

 

[goridedoo]

I think people WAY over think the whole avy thing. In 15 years of mountain riding we have never had to use a beacon or dig anybody out of an avalanche. Can it happen? Certainly and it takes a few lives each year but driving your car or eating fatty foods are both arguably more dangerous as they take far more lives than sledding.


I fully expect those who fear everything to respond to this. I was once one of the fearful, wore an avy pack before they were cool. Now it sits on a shelf, haven't worn it for years. I don't wear a pack as it hinders my riding enjoyment. I carry a shovel on my sled for when I or someone else gets stuck.


Back in the day it was hi-marking, and it was probably pretty dangerous at times. These days it is in the trees where slides are extremely rare. hauling all that extra crap around just doesn't make sense to me anymore. It just never gets used. I figure if it is my time, it just is, pretty much the same feeling from the rest of the group. The most dangerous guy in our group used to ride with all the gear, take all the classes but he ended up dead from a heart attack when most of us were certain he would die on a sled one day.


I think most of you worry way to much, or you are taking stupid chances. Quit worrying and enjoy your rides... All that junk on your back is no insurance at all that you wont die that day. Safety is a myth sold by fear mongers. Use your head, that is the best safety feature you have. If that fails, I am pretty sure we can chalk it up to natural selection. Most sled deaths are not accidents but seriously poor decision making. Most of them carried the gear and it didn't do a damn bit of good...

And as far as those who fear everything being the ones who respond... I dont fear alot of things but losing a friend when I could have done something scares the hell out of me as well as my friends having to live the rest of their lives knowing they potentially could have saved my life. I don’t “worry” when I am riding, I go prepared and educated. And I ENJOY every ride.

 

[ewanaburner]

the difference is where the sleds can go today compared where they went 10 years ago
that's why avy danger is ramped up
I never used one years ago now I do for that reason

 

[fc8464]

Just like any thing, you prepare for the worst and hope for the best. And if your lucky you will never need it.

 

[Big10inch]

I know you ride in Soco and I know I have friends who lost a friend in Soco a few years ago just feet from the trail because they couldnt get him dug up in time, they did not have shovels. Its real and it does happen.

You are so worked up over this you are making a stupid assumption right away. Who said we don't carry shovels? It would make for some really long days without shovels. We ride with shovels, in fact I assure you the one I ride with is bigger than yours.LOL

What is actual education gonna do for you? Clearly you are unreceptive to it.

I have had avy training. Assuming I am unreceptive is asinine. I am asking to have an adult discussion about it, you are thwarting every attempt at civil discourse. Are you so afraid that you might learn something that you take this position? Could it be that the risks are not as great as you have been led to believe. I think maybe it scares you to be wrong more than anything, hence the immediate leap for the derogatory comments rather than a civil discussion of facts.

I have been in places on the trail hundreds of yards from the nearest hill where you can look up and see branches broke 30ft up from a previous slide. I also know people ride on that trail all the time with out beacons or gear. Its just not fair to SAR and folks who end up in a probe line the next day and get to dig up a blue body. Not fair to the mothers, wives, and children. It happens every year.

Life isn't fair dude, it just isn't. You should get over that or your life will continue to be more difficult than necessary.


It happens every year, yep, it does. Do you know on average how many sledders we lose each year? I think in Colorado you could count them on one hand. I would be curious to see what the actual numbers look like. That would be a good starting point for bringing some sanity to the discussion...

Fear mongering... call us all chicken chits for using our heads and wanting to come home with the same amount of people we went out with. I guess I never buckle up on the drive west, maybe I’m the ignorant one, but then again me wearing my seatbelt has nothing to do with whether or not the guy in the passenger seat lives.

https://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/acc/acc_report.php?acc_id=597&accfm=inv

Never called you chicken chits, haven't resorted to calling names yet, you seem to be in the lead there... We use our heads to. My main riding partner has been riding the mountains all over the west for 50 years now. 50 years experience and never once has he had to dig out anybody. I have been riding 20 years, 15 around SoCo. I also have never had to dig anybody out. We must be using our heads or by your standards we should both be dead by now. Also keep in mind that we all make these choices when we choose who we ride with and where we ride. I would never ask you to ride with me if you were uncomfortable with my gear, my skills or my attitude.

 

[Big10inch]

the difference is where the sleds can go today compared where they went 10 years ago
that's why avy danger is ramped up
I never used one years ago now I do for that reason

Pretty sure I am much safer today than 10 years ago. Much of that is experience. The other part of it is different riding styles. We used to hi mark like fiends, the steeper and longer the climb the better. That has definitely changed. I typically only do that on hard spring snow anymore, and even then I don't enjoy that type of riding much anymore. It is certainly more dangerous than picking my way through the trees on much flatter ground.

 

[Big10inch]

I read that avy report you linked... Did YOU read it? Doesn't say they didn't have shovels. I do see what ended up being fatal errors, which is usually the case. It was a BIG powder day, certainly avy danger was rated as elevated on the CAIC website which I monitor all winter long and certainly before riding.


I even went back and re-read my post because I have received a couple of likes already. I just do not see what was so dang inflammatory. On big pow days we take more precautions. I never anywhere stated that I take none or ride without a shovel. I just don't see where I offended you so badly.


I just choose not to ride in full regalia on every ride. That crap is heavy and uncomfortable. It simply has proven to be unnecessary. Pretty sure it is my choice and the choice of my riding partners. I was just voicing an opinion...


I do think that if you really ran the numbers it would show that sledder deaths by avy are exceedingly rare. I have no doubt there is a lot of emotionally charged hype behind it. I also have no doubt that good proactive decision making will go much further towards keeping you safe than any amount of reactive safety gear you can carry.

 

[goridedoo]

I read that avy report you linked... Did YOU read it? Doesn't say they didn't have shovels. I do see what ended up being fatal errors, which is usually the case. It was a BIG powder day, certainly avy danger was rated as elevated on the CAIC website which I monitor all winter long and certainly before riding.


I even went back and re-read my post because I have received a couple of likes already. I just do not see what was so dang inflammatory. On big pow days we take more precautions. I never anywhere stated that I take none or ride without a shovel. I just don't see where I offended you so badly.


I just choose not to ride in full regalia on every ride. That crap is heavy and uncomfortable. It simply has proven to be unnecessary. Pretty sure it is my choice and the choice of my riding partners. I was just voicing an opinion...


I do think that if you really ran the numbers it would show that sledder deaths by avy are exceedingly rare. I have no doubt there is a lot of emotionally charged hype behind it. I also have no doubt that good proactive decision making will go much further towards keeping you safe than any amount of reactive safety gear you can carry.

Yes I did read the entire article, right after I posted it I should have clarified that I was WRONG. Initial reports had said they did not have shovels.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/unoffi...e-kills-snowmobiler-near-wolf-creek-pass/amp/

Either way they were in the backcountry under equipped, like you (from what I understand you typically ride with out a shovel and probe attached to YOU).

They had no intentions of going into avalanche terrain of any sort and were in a treed area, throttle stuck and all of the sudden they were in a hell of a mess. Again... it happens, NO ONE ever goes out with plans of dying in a slide, dont be complacent, thats when fatal mistakes happen.

I wanna say (don't quote me) that there are typically 20-40 people killed in North America annually in avalanches, skiers, sledders, hikers, etc.. Sledders are normally about half of that. Yes it is a small percentage, don’t care, its too many.

Please reconsider wearing a pack with a probe and shovel on your body. If your group is riding in the trees, something is triggered and your sled ends up buried in the bottom of a drainage and your buddy is buried you are gonna be seriously regretting not having that shovel on your back. Already said it, but it is not about YOU. I dont like wearing a pack, but I do it for my friends, and I have never had a bad day because of it. Being at a friends funeral knowing you could have done something, but you didnt wear a pack because its heavy or uncomfortable... BAD DAY.

Nothing was inflammatory in your first post but I really just didn’t like the demeanor. You *basically* said that anyone who goes into the back country prepared is overthinking it, if you are wearing and avy pack you are scared, and if you die in a slide it was natural selection.

You were right in some of what you said... if someone is buried a mistake was made (not sure natural selection is the PC term) and you are also right that the best tool you have is your head... Use your head and be prepared for that mistake.

No hard feelings, I just get upset when people act like being underprepared is gonna be their problem when the chit hits the fan... again, ITS NOT ABOUT YOU.

Needs to start snowing... too much time on hands... going insane ugh

 

[goridedoo]

And back to the pack thing... I REALLY think you and your entire group should start wearing them, its the most basic piece of gear and super important to have one. It doesnt need to be a big heavy airbag full of supplies to stay alive for a week, a little Klim nakpak with a shovel and probe would be plenty. After having the thing on for 5 minutes you won’t even know its there.

 

[Big10inch]

Maybe it would be better if you just allow people to make their own choices? Brow beating, especially based on the idea that we have to save everybody, every time is nonsense IMO. You can not save everybody, you just can't and accidents are going to happen. I do not see any evidence that wearing a pack is any better or has really saved any extra lives. I understand you believe this but I just do not. In many cases I think the extra safety gear emboldens riders to take chances they think they are covered for by the gear they wear. In fact I have seen and lived that. Time and time again it is the guys with the avy packs riding into places they shouldn't.


You also keep trying to say it isn't all about me. You are failing the reading comprehension portion here again. It is about the riding group. Ask any of them if they feel negatively towards my gear choices, or I theirs. WE are comfortable with our choices, thank you for your concern. I still maintain that you are way overthinking it. No matter how much you bring or how you carry it, none of it will save you if it is your time and please do not ever expect me to be PC. PC is what is wrong with the world IMO.


Back to the actual risks... so 10 sledders a season out of tens of thousands of riding days. Then read the reports. They almost always made mistakes no amount of gear would save them from. That is my point. Your decision process, not your gear or how you wear it is by far the most important factor. Please stop spreading the myth that the gear will protect you. Unless of course you can start substantiating it with facts. That means combing through avy reports, as I have done and finding out what really prevents accidents. It isn't the gear in your pack, that is the lie being told over and over.

 

[goridedoo]

It IS your and your groups choice to wear and ride as you please, just asking you to reconsider, but clearly you aren’t going to think about it. Thats fine.

I’m not PC but I really hate that you made the comment that natural selection is what has taken anyone who has died in an Avy. Yes, a mistake was made, natural selection? No.

No amount of gear will protect you, knowledge IS the first step. I would press anyone who rides in the mountains to take an avy one course. It is eye opening, you will learn to read reports, terrain, and snow conditions so you can make good choices as well as help you be prepared if a mistake does happen. Quick rescue AND the right gear DOES save lives and people pull off awesome rescues each year whether big10inch thinks so or not.

Have a good winter.

 

[snowmobiler]

deep snow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYbmXC0I34I

 

[Big10inch]

"It IS your and your groups choice to wear and ride as you please, just asking you to reconsider, but clearly you aren’t going to think about it. Thats fine."


The inference here being that I have never really thought about it... Clearly I have thought about it. I have thought about it many many times over the last 15-20 years and I think that it doesn't really make any difference. People are fond of all the "what if" scenarios when it comes to safety of all types. I think as a society we have been lied to and many believe that we can make everything "safe". I do not believe that. Awareness is what keeps you safe, not all of the accoutrements people seem to want to adorn themselves with.


"I’m not PC but I really hate that you made the comment that natural selection is what has taken anyone who has died in an Avy. Yes, a mistake was made, natural selection? No."


Sorry that offends you so. When the weak or foolish are taken in the animal kingdom we can call it natural selection. Whether you like it or not, when people are taken it is often for the same reasons and I believe the same terminology is applicable, even if you find it crass. Last I checked, nobody gets out alive, so naturally we will all succumb to this one day.


"No amount of gear will protect you, knowledge IS the first step. I would press anyone who rides in the mountains to take an avy one course. It is eye opening, you will learn to read reports, terrain, and snow conditions so you can make good choices as well as help you be prepared if a mistake does happen. Quick rescue AND the right gear DOES save lives and people pull off awesome rescues each year whether big10inch thinks so or not."


All good, and finally making some sense right up until you take another personal jab at me by making up something I never said. Nice try but I fully acknowledge that there are hero's out there that do save their buddies bacon. I don't think it has a damn thing to do with how they carried their shovel however. I have yet to see this argument justified with anything other than "what if's". Not a very solid argument IMO. Certainly not enough to take a hard line stance on and use it to brow beat people with.


With no pack on I am less likely to get tangled up in the trees, in my sled and I have much improved freedom of movement as well as comfort. Arguments can easily be made that this is safer than wearing a pack. Quicker access to a shovel because you don't have to fight to remove your pack in a panic, get it out, get it assembled, then start digging. All based on, but what if you lose your sled? If that is a common occurrence for you and yours, maybe a pack is the answer.


Truth is, nobody knows when or where accidents will occur, that is why they are called accidents. Truth is, you can't plan for all eventualities. Hence my argument that many of you have tried to overthink all of this and make up rules you think will help based on emotional responses not actual facts.

 

[DDECKER]

couldn't agree more that's why I don't wear a helmet when I ride

 

[tmberro]

Maybe it would be better if you just allow people to make their own choices? Brow beating, especially based on the idea that we have to save everybody, every time is nonsense IMO. You can not save everybody, you just can't and accidents are going to happen. I do not see any evidence that wearing a pack is any better or has really saved any extra lives. I understand you believe this but I just do not. In many cases I think the extra safety gear emboldens riders to take chances they think they are covered for by the gear they wear. In fact I have seen and lived that. Time and time again it is the guys with the avy packs riding into places they shouldn't.


You also keep trying to say it isn't all about me. You are failing the reading comprehension portion here again. It is about the riding group. Ask any of them if they feel negatively towards my gear choices, or I theirs. WE are comfortable with our choices, thank you for your concern. I still maintain that you are way overthinking it. No matter how much you bring or how you carry it, none of it will save you if it is your time and please do not ever expect me to be PC. PC is what is wrong with the world IMO.


Back to the actual risks... so 10 sledders a season out of tens of thousands of riding days. Then read the reports. They almost always made mistakes no amount of gear would save them from. That is my point. Your decision process, not your gear or how you wear it is by far the most important factor. Please stop spreading the myth that the gear will protect you. Unless of course you can start substantiating it with facts. That means combing through avy reports, as I have done and finding out what really prevents accidents. It isn't the gear in your pack, that is the lie being told over and over.

This discussion is unreal. I have more comments I would like to share because this mindset infuriates me, but here is some evidence for you...

Two years ago, my group of five was traveling down a trail out of a riding zone. We were the last group out of the area. Three other groups left down the same exact single track trail we did 20 minutes earlier.

An avalanche was remote triggered and slid from above hitting the last two riders, riders 4 and 5. They both pulled their bags. Rider 4 was taken from his sled while rider 5 tried to stay with his sled. Rider 4 was sorted to the surface due to the avalanche bag, while rider 5 became buried. Both sleds buried.

Rider 4 radioed to the remaining group about the incident then started a beacon search while the remaining members came to the scene. Rider 5 was located and extracted just as he was losing conciseness by riders 4 and 2 by the shovels in their pack.

A mistake was made to be in this position to begin with, but being prepared brought everyone home that day. I wouldn't consider my two friends "Extra" lives...

 

[FatDogX]

Interesting read for sure!!

When it comes down to it......I ride and I ride safe, not only for me but the buddies I ride with, their families and my family, but some guys out there do not!!

I ride so I can ride another day with my friends and family, but sadly some do not. Some people refuse to look at the big picture, its not all about what "you" think or what "you" think you know. There will always be variables that are out of our control but again.....some do not think about this.

Obviously these type of guys do not think about the families and friends left behind that have to deal with a fluke disaster and a the loss of a loved one. Now add in the your own inability to react, assist or do something.....How do you face yourself or how do you face these families and friends?

These people may or may not make it through life with having to deal with an issue but I guess I look at this way.......If I go through life prepared, educated and ready to react and NOTHING every happens, am I really out anything???? Now if something does happen, just once and you cannot react or deal with the issue properly......who would you rather be???

After all............Why should.....

Cops wear body armor
Construction workers wear hard hats
Racers wear helmets
Doctors wear gloves or a mask
Kids be in car seats
Firefighters wear turnout gear
Carpenters wear safety glasses
A mechanic use the safety procedures on a hoist
A Skydiver have a second parachute

Should I keep going ?? Everywhere we look in real life we see areas wear people "minimize" the risk and why should be backcountry riding be different?

 

[Big10inch]

I agree, you guys should continue to adorn yourselves with the fallacies of safety. We should try to save everybody, every time. That way you can all cheat death. Good Luck with that plan. I find most of what has been listed to be an epic waste of time and energy based an fear and lies. I do think you should all keep on with the program though...


Awareness is where safety starts and ends in almost every case. Go ahead and take the steps you feel necessary for you and yours but stay out of the rest of our lives with this foolishness. The stupid notion that if you do not do things this way you are ignorant and dangerous is exactly the opposite. Trying to force people to compromise their freedom of choice based on fear is in large part what has destroyed what once was a free country.


We have had a guy show up without a helmet. That guy asked me if I had avy gear, how ironic. His choice though IMO. If he smashed his head, oh well, his choice. One of my buddies refuses to wear seatbelts in the car, his choice. Why can't you guys just allow people to make their own choices? It isn't your responsibility to save the world. Maybe think about the boundries you are crossing with these attitudes?


There are risks inherent with just about everything in life. Just because we do not choose the same avenues to mitigate perceived risks does not make one approach right or wrong, or one group ignorant or educated. I have not seen a single statistic supporting the claims of the fear mongers here, just emotional conjecture. It IS all about our own rights to make our own choices...


Oh and I never rode in a car seat, they hadn't even been invented. Amazingly I am still alive... There are two sides to every example listed. Are you all so close minded, with the safety blinders strapped on tight that you can't see what you have given up with the positions you have taken?