Can a 800 BB beat a 800 Turbo ?
- Thread starter Original OT
- Start date
So OT, just what big bore xp and turbo xp did you run off?? Who built each?? What was the elevation?? Boost level on the xp?? Tracks?? Conditions??
Details man
Jake
Details man
Jake
T
tube
Well-known member
an 860 will run just fine against a turbo 800. I know I have had both... and an tm1000, and tm1200, and a cutler 1000, and and psi 990 and so on.
The 860 exceeds all expectations and i don't care whether you think its possible or not. Its a fact, more so I would put my 860 on nos up against any turbo 800, race gas or not. In a drag race the 860 is gone before your turbo even thinks about spooling, and don't give me the "you can clutch that out" crap. I got my tm1200 down as little lag as possible, nothing has crisp-snappy throttle response like a N/A sled, its just not possible. Period. At the end of the day ride what puts a smile on your face because thats all that matters, and after years and years of pointless sled builds I landed on the 860 w/nos, for me the most fun all around. Something about those kits in the XP chassis just works very, very well.
The 860 exceeds all expectations and i don't care whether you think its possible or not. Its a fact, more so I would put my 860 on nos up against any turbo 800, race gas or not. In a drag race the 860 is gone before your turbo even thinks about spooling, and don't give me the "you can clutch that out" crap. I got my tm1200 down as little lag as possible, nothing has crisp-snappy throttle response like a N/A sled, its just not possible. Period. At the end of the day ride what puts a smile on your face because thats all that matters, and after years and years of pointless sled builds I landed on the 860 w/nos, for me the most fun all around. Something about those kits in the XP chassis just works very, very well.
Trygstad XP 860 porting & head, SLP XP porting, head, single pipe & reeds VS. Turbo Perfomance Aero66 installed by Turbo Performance......elevation above 9000'......conditions always deep powder.....Track 2.5 paddels. The BB kits just do not turn the same trackspeed as a turbo's do.
Triple 7, is the XP turbo kit your selling getting beat by XP BB kits ?
OT
Triple 7, is the XP turbo kit your selling getting beat by XP BB kits ?
OT
Haven't ran side by side turbo with bb OT. That will change as soon as we have snow within driving distance. And hopefully some of the 860 guys will show up January 9th and 10th at Cooke.
I dont speak in absolutes so I am not going to say that there is no way that an 860 will beat an 800 turbo. On pump gas, an 860 doo against an 800 turbo doo, both sleds being prepped equally, I would say that I could get up a more gnarly hill on the turbo. But thats just me with my riding style. If you pull both sleds up to the bottom, nail the throttle and see which one goes further...who knows. Thats not real riding in my book. I will still put money down on one of my turbo sleds but thats just me.
It has been my expirience that a well setup turbo sled will pull bigger hills than a motor that is less than 10 percent larger than the turbo'd motor no matter the fuel ran. But as I said, I will not say that the turbo will absolutely always win...on pump fuel that is.
Tube, I would like to run my turbo sled against your 860 on nitrous. Then we would have two well tuned sleds, one bb one turbo to draw a conclusion from. If we are talking pump gas, its one thing. Race fuel or even avgas makes the story quite a bit different.
Time will tell. I am sure that by the midway point of the season we will have videos to back up peoples thoughts, one way or another. I could see how putting the sleds right against the bottom of a hill, dead stop and nailing the throttle could be a big advantage for a good running NA sled. That would not necessarily show who is making power. That shows who has a good drag setup, something I care nothing about. If we are looking to prove whos making the horsepower lets roll into a mile long pull at 30 mph in deep powder and throttle up. Highmark or First to the top is making the power. Agreed??
Jake
I dont speak in absolutes so I am not going to say that there is no way that an 860 will beat an 800 turbo. On pump gas, an 860 doo against an 800 turbo doo, both sleds being prepped equally, I would say that I could get up a more gnarly hill on the turbo. But thats just me with my riding style. If you pull both sleds up to the bottom, nail the throttle and see which one goes further...who knows. Thats not real riding in my book. I will still put money down on one of my turbo sleds but thats just me.
It has been my expirience that a well setup turbo sled will pull bigger hills than a motor that is less than 10 percent larger than the turbo'd motor no matter the fuel ran. But as I said, I will not say that the turbo will absolutely always win...on pump fuel that is.
Tube, I would like to run my turbo sled against your 860 on nitrous. Then we would have two well tuned sleds, one bb one turbo to draw a conclusion from. If we are talking pump gas, its one thing. Race fuel or even avgas makes the story quite a bit different.
Time will tell. I am sure that by the midway point of the season we will have videos to back up peoples thoughts, one way or another. I could see how putting the sleds right against the bottom of a hill, dead stop and nailing the throttle could be a big advantage for a good running NA sled. That would not necessarily show who is making power. That shows who has a good drag setup, something I care nothing about. If we are looking to prove whos making the horsepower lets roll into a mile long pull at 30 mph in deep powder and throttle up. Highmark or First to the top is making the power. Agreed??
Jake
R
RKT
Well-known member
Jake, getting to the top of the hill first is always a drag race.. Why does it make any difference if you start at the bottom at a dead stop or a rolling 30mph start.. Still a drag race BOTH CASES...
Why is one a drag race in your eyes and one not??
We like to compare another way.. A way that, we feel, shows true power potential. Find a hill, on a deep powder day, with no tracks on it.. Then cut fresh tracks and see which sled gets higher on the hill.. This shows the power of the sled.. Of course, both sleds must have similar tracks (ie 2.25") and both sleds must be similar in weight (within 15-20lbs). The highmark tells the story.. Like YOU said... anything else is just a drag race and you and I both do not like those kind of tests.
Kelsey
Well Kelsey, the way I see it when you park two sleds against a hill at a dead stop you create a situation where turbo lag, clutching, gearing, hookup, suspension setup, etc has a huge effect on the launch of the sled. In ANY standing start drag race the launch can and does have a major effect on the end result of the race.
When you rolling start into a hill, a ton of variables are eliminated. At that point you are going to see who is putting the horsepower to the snow. No question about whether the NA sled just jumped harder, or it hooked better, or whatever. Just horsepower. Its kinda like doing 50 mph roll ons in cars or on bikes...you see who has got power, not who can launch a machine. And since not much of my riding is done blasting off from a complete stop, I prefer this method of testing.
Your way is fine too. Put a mark up and see if the other sled can match it, that will pretty much tell the story of who is making power as well. The sled with more power should climb higher. Should being the key word. Horsepower is speed, so running the sleds side by side or against a stop watch is another indicator that shouldnt be overlooked.
Agreed??
Jake
When you rolling start into a hill, a ton of variables are eliminated. At that point you are going to see who is putting the horsepower to the snow. No question about whether the NA sled just jumped harder, or it hooked better, or whatever. Just horsepower. Its kinda like doing 50 mph roll ons in cars or on bikes...you see who has got power, not who can launch a machine. And since not much of my riding is done blasting off from a complete stop, I prefer this method of testing.
Your way is fine too. Put a mark up and see if the other sled can match it, that will pretty much tell the story of who is making power as well. The sled with more power should climb higher. Should being the key word. Horsepower is speed, so running the sleds side by side or against a stop watch is another indicator that shouldnt be overlooked.
Agreed??
Jake
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R
RKT
Well-known member
Hmmmm.. I have to somewhat disagree.. afterall.. one needs to see the full "personality" of a turbo's sled and IF turbo lag is inherent to the turbo systems.. then that will always be a reality that has to be dealt with.. not hidden..
As for clutching and gearing.. These are ALWAYS players.. N/A or Turbo's.. again.. they need to be displayed for what they are...
Keep in mind, while neither you nor I give a hoot about a drag race.. MANY people are 100% interested in this part of snowmobiling (mainly people in the flatter areas) So, again.. drag racing is ALWAYS done from a dead stop.. so, if the turbo has undesireable charactristics in this sort of an application.. so be it.. But put it out there for all to see..
As far as a rolling start proving that one has more power over the other.. Not true at all IMO.. You hit on some of the reasons why a dead stop effects the drag race results.. same goes for a rolling start.. If the winner of the race is suppose to have the most power (which , hopefully, you know this is not the case most of the time.. think... grass dragging) then you can not distinguish between races. For example. if the winner of the race has the most HP, then the winner of the drag race from the dead stop will also have the most HP as well.. again.. ALL the factors EXCEPT turbo lag, come in to play with EITHER race style.. So, the idea that the winner of the race has the most power is simply not a valid statement..
Keep in mind the rolling start favors the turbo sled in one very big way.. The N/A sled has to rely HEAVILY on pipe temp.. the turbo sled is not as effected by pipe temp... So, the turbo sled will lauch with more power than the N/A sled because until the N/A sled's pipe temp is optimum it is further down(more effected) on power than the turbo sled would be with the same pipe temp.. ie the pipe temp is not as critcal for the turbo sled when trying to make build HP quickly.. So you can not have race that favors one sled over another and come to the conclusion that the race "Winner is making more power...
On that same note.. I don't ever think anybody claimed that the N/A sled will match the Horse power of the turbo sled.. I think what was claimed is that they can climb with and race with a pump gas turbo......so, matching on the snow performance and matching HP are two seperate things.. Agreed?
Afterall, when it all comes down to it.. the performance on the hill is what the rider likes to compare.. not the HP ratings... If I wanted to simply out HP the other N/A sleds.. I would be running a triple engine.. of course, this would not fair well in overall performance but would surely have the HP edge over any twin.
The Bottom line is, while the turbo sled MAY be making more power than its N/A counter-part.. there are more factors in play the limit how much of that power gets put to the ground in drag racing, roll on racing, and straight powder pulling.. Of course there are limits with the N/A sled as well...but not so many...
So, at the end of the day... it is not about who has the most HP, but, rather about who has the best performance in a given situation... Getting hung up on the result of any one particular competition is crazy... The truth is.. different situations favor different set-ups and types of power delivery..
This is why some prefer turbos and other prefer BB's...
It is all good..
Kelsey
Hmmmm.. I have to somewhat disagree.. afterall.. one needs to see the full "personality" of a turbo's sled and IF turbo lag is inherent to the turbo systems.. then that will always be a reality that has to be dealt with.. not hidden..
As for clutching and gearing.. These are ALWAYS players.. N/A or Turbo's.. again.. they need to be displayed for what they are...
Keep in mind, while neither you nor I give a hoot about a drag race.. MANY people are 100% interested in this part of snowmobiling (mainly people in the flatter areas) So, again.. drag racing is ALWAYS done from a dead stop.. so, if the turbo has undesireable charactristics in this sort of an application.. so be it.. But put it out there for all to see..
As far as a rolling start proving that one has more power over the other.. Not true at all IMO.. You hit on some of the reasons why a dead stop effects the drag race results.. same goes for a rolling start.. If the winner of the race is suppose to have the most power (which , hopefully, you know this is not the case most of the time.. think... grass dragging) then you can not distinguish between races. For example. if the winner of the race has the most HP, then the winner of the drag race from the dead stop will also have the most HP as well.. again.. ALL the factors EXCEPT turbo lag, come in to play with EITHER race style.. So, the idea that the winner of the race has the most power is simply not a valid statement..
Keep in mind the rolling start favors the turbo sled in one very big way.. The N/A sled has to rely HEAVILY on pipe temp.. the turbo sled is not as effected by pipe temp... So, the turbo sled will lauch with more power than the N/A sled because until the N/A sled's pipe temp is optimum it is further down(more effected) on power than the turbo sled would be with the same pipe temp.. ie the pipe temp is not as critcal for the turbo sled when trying to make build HP quickly.. So you can not have race that favors one sled over another and come to the conclusion that the race "Winner is making more power...
On that same note.. I don't ever think anybody claimed that the N/A sled will match the Horse power of the turbo sled.. I think what was claimed is that they can climb with and race with a pump gas turbo......so, matching on the snow performance and matching HP are two seperate things.. Agreed?
Afterall, when it all comes down to it.. the performance on the hill is what the rider likes to compare.. not the HP ratings... If I wanted to simply out HP the other N/A sleds.. I would be running a triple engine.. of course, this would not fair well in overall performance but would surely have the HP edge over any twin.
The Bottom line is, while the turbo sled MAY be making more power than its N/A counter-part.. there are more factors in play the limit how much of that power gets put to the ground in drag racing, roll on racing, and straight powder pulling.. Of course there are limits with the N/A sled as well...but not so many...
So, at the end of the day... it is not about who has the most HP, but, rather about who has the best performance in a given situation... Getting hung up on the result of any one particular competition is crazy... The truth is.. different situations favor different set-ups and types of power delivery..
This is why some prefer turbos and other prefer BB's...
It is all good..
Kelsey
Yep, you are correct on some points. I think we should test the entire personalities of the setups...including standing start. I just remember the other threads about racing the turbos with your 860 and how each and every race (that was discussed on here atleast) was done with both sleds sitting parked at the bottom of the hill. And those are the results that have been discussed and the conclusion that 860's will run with turbos have been drawn from. I think it is only fair to at the very least test a rolling start. Afterall, that would allow you to have your pipe hott on your 860 as well, right??
As for the winner of a rolling start and a standing start being the same everytime because horsepower would prevail either time...thats an incorrect statement. A standing start drag race is not even close to the same thing as rolling start run. Gearing, clutching, etc all have an effect with a rolling start for sure, but not nearly as large an effect as when you are launching a sled from a parked position uphill. Im not saying that the 860 will get stomped by the turbo or anything like that but I am saying that putting a turbo against the hill with a cold pipe, cold turbo and big load and running it against a well tuned n/a setup is a bit like saying that a locamotive doesnt have any power because it wont roll over a quarter from a dead stop. How bout we give the turbo a shot to show what it can do in real world conditions.
As for pipe temperature affecting an N/A sled worse than a turbo sled, I beg to differ. Exhaust heat is the only damn thing that makes a turbo spool. NOT exhaust blowing through the turbo, heat. Without heat in the pipe, a turbo sled wont do jack. If the turbo isnt spooling, it is nothing but an extremely restrictive muffler, so how can pipe heat affect an N/A sled worse than a turbo??
I agree that everyone cares about overall performance. I think that both setups should be tested side by side in all conditions. Hills should be pulled, tree riding should be done, and track speeds should be compared. At the end of the day I think there should be a clear cut stronger overall sled. Or atleast the different conditions that either setup excells in will be shown.
At the end of the day, just ride whats fun for you. I like big track speeds and lots of power so I will use a turbo.
Jake
TRACKSPEED is what ALL hill bangers care about.........IMHO the greatest opportunity for the greatest trackspeed comes from installing a turbo. A 50 shot of NOS gets my vote as well.
I'll give up the hole shot any day in favor of trackspeed when im on a 1000' climb. Trackspeed becomes the key factor when im at the last 200' of that 1000' climb in 3 feet of fresh untracked powder.
Does a XP BB generate the same trackspeed as a XP turbo ?
OT
I'll give up the hole shot any day in favor of trackspeed when im on a 1000' climb. Trackspeed becomes the key factor when im at the last 200' of that 1000' climb in 3 feet of fresh untracked powder.
Does a XP BB generate the same trackspeed as a XP turbo ?
OT
I wonder what BB kit this guy has
(I fixed it)...As for BBXP vs 800TXP??
it was BBXP vs a PGTM8... its called "reading"...BJIf I remember right...MR990 is the guy with the PGTM8 maybe a pm to him about the couple 860's that he ran against...naw that means you would get some REAL facts...
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R
RKT
Well-known member
Jake,
I will address your question about the the hot pipe vs. cold pipe.
The N/A sled relies heavily onthe pipe being up to temp to make power.. Whenthe pipe temp is lower the power suffers greatly and the engine is not happy.. The pipe temp is a big player in "SUCKING" in the intake charge and air and we both know that these are the key components for making power. When the pipe is notup to temp this suction pulse is timed wrong and will not pull inthe required air and fuel to make optimum power..
The TURBO sled has FORCED INDUCTION... so, it is not relying on the pipe's suction pulse to pull in the air and fuel mix... So, having the pipe not up to optimum temp is nowhere near as big of a factor onthe forced induced engine vs. the N/A engine.
As for exhaust pressure... same thing.. lower power = lower pressure. So again, the N/A required proper pipe temp to make max power, the Turbo sled , while it does rely on the pipe effects, is not nearly as bound by it like the N/A engine..
As for the 860 comparisions done last year.. You are mistaken.. When we compared against the 2 PG M8 turbos.. We did race and the 860 clearly prevailed.. Then they said, "let's just point them up this hill (2-3ft powder day)and then we will see who wins" so, that is what we did.. The conditions wer such that you could MAYBE get 1/4 way up the hill before powering out.. Good contest... very revealing..
When I ran the Turbo M10.. the weather was about 5% visability..so ccpowder and I could not do any real powder pulls because of the weather.. in fact the racing was very difficult.. Of the 3 races we had, only one was really valid due to the conditions..and cc did pull me on top end..
Again, playingthe HP card is not what people should be focused on.. The OVERALL performance onthe hill is what really matters, and somethings the turbo does better and some things the BB does better... In any case, they are VERY close when both on Pump Gas.. that we do know.. I suspect the XP turbos will be a bit stronger than the Cat or the Polaris..So, we will see how that goes whenthe snow flies..
Kelsey
BJ you will stoup to any level. Even "change" Tube post to satisfy your ego. LMAO your not fooling anyone
When can the forum expect to see the Dyno Sheets on your motors BJ ?
OT
Kelsey, what trackspeeds is your 860 running going up a moderate hill in 2-3 feet of untracked powder ?
OT
OT
T
tube
Well-known member
to be fair;
-Yes my 860 is and SHR860
-My XP is not stock, (skid, clutching, titanium, carbonfiber, track, nos etc)
-I am not heavy, 170lbs
-The 2 main sleds turbo sleds I ride with are;
-a cpc TM8, race gas setup at 10#'s
-a 900 Cat mod turbo w/garrett 2871 at 10#'s
-both turbo sleds would be close to 70lbs heavier than my xp , both riders 30-40lbs heavier than myslef as well. so there is about 100# wieght advantage for the xp.
-the comparisons were done on lakes, up hills, deep deep snow in trees, short STEEP pulls and drag races and chutes.
The 860 is very competive with those sleds in all conditions.
-Yes my 860 is and SHR860
-My XP is not stock, (skid, clutching, titanium, carbonfiber, track, nos etc)
-I am not heavy, 170lbs
-The 2 main sleds turbo sleds I ride with are;
-a cpc TM8, race gas setup at 10#'s
-a 900 Cat mod turbo w/garrett 2871 at 10#'s
-both turbo sleds would be close to 70lbs heavier than my xp , both riders 30-40lbs heavier than myslef as well. so there is about 100# wieght advantage for the xp.
-the comparisons were done on lakes, up hills, deep deep snow in trees, short STEEP pulls and drag races and chutes.
The 860 is very competive with those sleds in all conditions.
Hey tube,
those turbos you raced? were they making boost at idle?
NSC
those turbos you raced? were they making boost at idle?
NSC
Very Competive, what does that mean are you beating the turbo's conclusively Yes or No ?? Maybe in the tree's Yes or No ?? Whats your trackspeed up hill ??
OT
I see where you are coming from on the pipe deal. I realize that the pipe has to be hot on any well setup NA motor to make good power and overall performance. But, until a turbo motor is up on boost, the pipe still works just the same as an NA motor. Just because you have a turbo on the end of it does not mean pressure wave tuning does not exist. The pipe functions somewhat normally until there is a fair bit of boost built. I could see where the NA sled could be more dependant on pipe temp but I will tell you this, if I am sitting on the line with 1300 degree egt temps on a turbo sled, when I dump the flipper it leaves like it was kicked. You have to have pipe temp before you can have forced induction, its the order of operations.
Thats good about the pump gas turbo Cats. I didnt realize how all you had tested against them. One thing to remember, a low boost, poor breathing motor is not the same animal as a low boost, strong breathing motor..
It will be fun to play with the turbos and big bores and some turbo'd big bore Doo's this winter. Hopefully we can have some fun, learn some things and build better hotrods from everyone.
Jake
When the pipe is cold the pipe is cold performance is down weather your N/A or not.
Is there anyone out there enjoying peak performance with a cold pipe N/A or not ?
Kind of a mute point imho.
I pull the rope to start the turbo on a cold morning and if the sled has not been properly warmed up the sled runs like Sh!t until correct operating temps have been achieved....The same occure with a N/A sled.
OT
Is there anyone out there enjoying peak performance with a cold pipe N/A or not ?
Kind of a mute point imho.
I pull the rope to start the turbo on a cold morning and if the sled has not been properly warmed up the sled runs like Sh!t until correct operating temps have been achieved....The same occure with a N/A sled.
OT
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I wonder if this info is worth reading??....naw lets just skip over some real world on hill facts and ask for dyno sheets
-BJ
