Big Boost on the Pro?

[JSCC]

fyi had a modded Apex for 3 years ...put over 6000 miles on it.

no need to get your panties in a bunch and start with the name calling.
Anytime you are up this way shoot me a pm and come ride with us, if the snow is good we have some interesting places to ride bout 15 min from my house, plenty of room to bunk as well.

I am pretty sure I didnt call anyone a name.
I will more than likely take you up on that ride. How is the snow now?

 

[2XM3]

eh it sucks....maybe 20 inches of rock....just hopin for some good stuff, started amazing, 2nd ride was 36 inches nice fluff...stumpy of course but then..high temp and rain...nasty deal. base will be good but about 80 inches needed to get to good areas. My bud in cooke is depressed as well. May have to head north this year last year really good for the local stuff,100+ inches

 

[allblowdup]

There we go again talking big boost numbers without the backup info. Is it intercooled? What elevation? etc. Running more than 12 psi non intercooleed or water/meth injection becomes a waste of time and energy at even moddest elevations. Like has been said the turbo has to work harder to make 15 lbs of boost at 13,000 ft. Well the amount of work being done on the air is much greater to acheive this so the compressed air temp is way higher. At some point you actually go backwards. You get less oxegen molecules in the same volume of air at a higher boost level than at a lower one. The only way to run real high boost properly is with a good intercooler or a water/meth injection system.

That would be a great test for dynotech. Take a turbo sled and watch hp change as boost and intake air temp is changed.

 

[tdorval]

I know a cold air intake isn't the same as an intercooler, but shouldn't that aid in running somewhat higher boost numbers without an intercooler. I'm new to turbos and just trying to understand everything so would like to here some feedback on this.

Thanks

 

[allblowdup]

Yup a cold air intake also helps. Anything that you can do to make the air going into the engine more dense. With water/meth injection The latent heat of vaporization cools the air going in. The meth is onl;y there so it doesn't freeze. Even though the water takes up some space that would be normally be air the cooler charge far outways that issue.

Perfect setup would be a forward mounted intake with large dia charge tubes, through a oversized air/water intercooler and a temp operated water/meth injection system and hang on.

Air temperature (oF) Gauge Pressure (psi)
IE Air density at 10 psi and 32 deg f is .136
at 20 psi and 300 deg f is .123
Sure at 10 psi your charge temp is higher than 32 f but even at 140f it is still .111. Not alot less than the 20 psi level. Plus you have 300 deg air wanting to start deto for you. Big boost is not always good unless done properly.

 

[twsandrew]

Jed
I am going to make some assumptions here and I know well what *** U ME can do but my guess is the guys buying turbo pros are guys building fun sleds for boondocking. While we do that some our precept is different with the hills that we try to climb with 2" feet of fresh. I have seen days when it takes multiple passes from a 174 impluse race kit sled with a CR M10 just to GET us into our riding area in dry fork. If you are telling me that a pro is so light that it will do that at 8-12 lbs I am calling absolute BS. The good running M8 turbos in our group simply don't try to go in there in those conditions until the way is well paved by big 4 strokes running 17lbs plus with 174X3" tracks. I know you and other guys will turn them up this year and we will soon know but I have seen what a Twisted Pro with skid and a 174 X 3" can do and it impressed me but by no means would it climb anything close to what a big boosted 4 stroker can. I will say that the Canucks did get their pro over some of the big chutes at 14lbs so there is hope but I think that was on a day where a well boosted M8t would have done the same. I know light helps but where Jed is coming from is that in 3"+ feet of snow on a long pull you are going to be relying on track speed and at 8lbs the Pro simply doesn't have the track speed.

 

[dmj1]

I ride a turbo ed silber pro @ 13psi with a 163 2.5 camo extreme. And I would have to agree that on the sick deep days the big 4 stokers all done up will go the furthest in the deep. But the T pro I think is allot more fun and nibble to ride . The main thing is we are riding turbo ed sleds !!!!
I know of at least 3 guys coming off turbo ed yamy's and going with Silber T800 pro's this year. They all said the same thing, they were willing to give up the monster power for weight difference.

 

[2XM3]

I think the large problem we have is just that, the climbing sleds are almost a separate breed from the boondocking sleds...and as such really very hard to compare the two. Yes my modded apex would go anywhere my pro can go but it took at least triple the effort to heave it around,the 174 3" is just a lot of track for technical riding. Never broke, never any issues.
My Pro or my carbon fibre mod sled you can ride all day with very little effort. But as you said there are built for that.

 

[dmj1]

ya it is definatly not comparing apples to apples.
My silber t800 with timber skid front and rear plus camo extreme 163x2.5
climbes like a mother! It just does'nt go as far as full blown
Yammy. I would guess to go further up the mountain on a Yammy would cost aprox. more $10gs .Do you have a turbo on your pro?

 

[EZmoney]

Ok... so what is it some of you are after? Why did you buy a pro to turbo or a two stroke for that matter if you want monster power? I know this pro i bought and turbo combo will not come close in a big pull against my apex that i sold. As a matter of fact i dont care what turbo manufacturer, intercooled non intercooled, meth BIG BOOST #s. i would run on this pro it will still get its *** kicked by apex i had. Its Not why i bought this sled. If i can get 210 to 220 reliable hp and run consistent day in day out ill be happy, I bought it to have a fun light sled make some big pulls still and try something different. I keep hearing 300 hp. What sled of jscc had 300hp??. The BD apex with no head shim and stock internals running what, 14 psi? Or the BD nytro and what boost levels did you run with that? 12 or 14 psi ? or the cat you ran 12 psi with? Sorry bud imo none of those never made a honest 300hp . Twsandrew my sled was very similar to the one you bought off zeb so you have a idea of what i rode and gave of for power but gained nible and light. IMO the pro turbod is going to bring back alot of the fun factor in ridding i was missing.

 

[twsandrew]

EZ I agree. Jed and others chose the pro for the fun factor. I am ready to buy one after I see them this year for the same reason. The Apex makes me feel like I got in a car wreck at the end of the day like you said but for some days you just need that tool. Jed and guys like myself are just trying to figure out if the Pro will take higher boost levels for those few days especially when we ride with a lot of Impulse guys day in and day out. The 2 strokers are fun in a crowd of them but on a big day if you go out with the 4 stroke guys you are just going to be looking at a lot of lines and watching.

 

[2XM3]

Ok... so what is it some of you are after? Why did you buy a pro to turbo or a two stroke for that matter if you want monster power? I know this pro i bought and turbo combo will not come close in a big pull against my apex that i sold. As a matter of fact i dont care what turbo manufacturer, intercooled non intercooled, meth BIG BOOST #s. i would run on this pro it will still get its *** kicked by apex i had. Its Not why i bought this sled. If i can get 210 to 220 reliable hp and run consistent day in day out ill be happy, I bought it to have a fun light sled make some big pulls still and try something different. I keep hearing 300 hp. What sled of jscc had 300hp??. The BD apex with no head shim and stock internals running what, 14 psi? Or the BD nytro and what boost levels did you run with that? 12 or 14 psi ? or the cat you ran 12 psi with? Sorry bud imo none of those never made a honest 300hp . Twsandrew my sled was very similar to the one you bought off zeb so you have a idea of what i rode and gave of for power but gained nible and light. IMO the pro turbod is going to bring back alot of the fun factor in ridding i was missing.

Got a question for the hp numbers being that I have not pushed the apex this hard, but on my hyabusa (falicon rods ect ect) at 6000 ft elevation dyno tests we had to run 22-24 pounds to get a legit 300 ponies, thats cams,ported,open race pipe ect.. I have to assume the R1 based apex would require similar numbers at elevation ??

 

[EZmoney]

I am a Impulse guy and friends with all the guys your implying about and ride with most of them every year.. So i know exactly what you mean.Your name has come up in stories with some of your wild cars you got. To be honest i just had a good bs with Pau the other day about trying this new sled/turbo. So owning a Impulse sled or not we still talk all the time. For the most part its like you say. There is not many 4 strokes where i live and ride so flying up a hill at 60mph when your buddies are making it a quarter of the way on there stocker was getting old. I also found myself riding less. if the snow was deep i was all in but just average set up snow i would stay home with my kids or ride the wifes m8 because the challenge wasn't there. I think this sled will be a good happy medium to be honest Go back to just ridding and trying to beat my buddies with a good line.

 

[2XM3]

hey if ya want we can stick this in a sled: 588 inch, 14-71


and if ya want more..lol T55 5500 hp (for a boat)



I'm just a crazy old fu@ker thats raced/built everything there is for the last 35 years...lmao

 

[EZmoney]

Got a question for the hp numbers being that I have not pushed the apex this hard, but on my hyabusa (falicon rods ect ect) at 6000 ft elevation dyno tests we had to run 22-24 pounds to get a legit 300 ponies, thats cams,ported,open race pipe ect.. I have to assume the R1 based apex would require similar numbers at elevation ??

Depends what kit? What size turbo ect.. People always say 10 hp per pound of boost. You have to have good motor proper cam timing and a very efficient turbo system with proper fuel delivery to make that.. I would say on average most kits with stock motors are making on average 6.5 to 7.5 hp per pound of boost. Mcx claims 290 hp with the apex kit at 17 psi. the apex comes stock with 165hp nytro comes stock with around 130 hp they make a270hp kit at 18psi. now do the math. Now with that said and tsandrew i think he will agree with the motor work we did and the turbos we ran..I know mine did and sure his also would beat the mcx kit with mine running 14 psi and them running there 17 psi. So what would it make at 18 psi? im not sure but it was fast.

 

[2XM3]

that makes sence as the 300 hp busa was at the wheel, they don't lose that much there, prob 19-20 for 300 at the flywheel on the bike, I know it took 34 to hit 400 on alky

 

[twsandrew]

There are a million variables in HP as EZ said. I don't believe rules of thumb are anything more than theory. I know there is a big diff between kits and chargers at the same level. I do believe an M1000 at over 16lbs with a 3071 is making a legit 300hp as both Jed and I have seen over 85 mph on the 1000 with a 3071 but that's obviously on the edge. Now that I have helped butcher this thread totally I will bow out and wait to see what Jed and others who will push their Pro can do on bigger hills or in deeper snow this year. I will likely always own a boosted 4 and 2 and consider myself very lucky to have it both ways. Honestly the M1k with a 174 was really close to perfect and would climb most anything until you put it up against the best climbing 4. It can be super nimble for me and made excellent track speed. The issue I had was belt life was terrible as I got above 13lbs on long hills. Hopefully a boosted pro 15 with a 174 will be about as good. If so I will have one next yr. If not the cat 8 is super reliable at 12-15lbs on race fuel and pulls very hard especially with a 925 kit. For the money that is still the fast fun sled benchmark imo. Now I have completely thrown this thread in another direction...

 

[JSCC]

Ok... so what is it some of you are after? Why did you buy a pro to turbo or a two stroke for that matter if you want monster power? I know this pro i bought and turbo combo will not come close in a big pull against my apex that i sold. As a matter of fact i dont care what turbo manufacturer, intercooled non intercooled, meth BIG BOOST #s. i would run on this pro it will still get its *** kicked by apex i had. Its Not why i bought this sled. If i can get 210 to 220 reliable hp and run consistent day in day out ill be happy, I bought it to have a fun light sled make some big pulls still and try something different. I keep hearing 300 hp. What sled of jscc had 300hp??. The BD apex with no head shim and stock internals running what, 14 psi? Or the BD nytro and what boost levels did you run with that? 12 or 14 psi ? or the cat you ran 12 psi with? Sorry bud imo none of those never made a honest 300hp . Twsandrew my sled was very similar to the one you bought off zeb so you have a idea of what i rode and gave of for power but gained nible and light. IMO the pro turbod is going to bring back alot of the fun factor in ridding i was missing.

So what you are saying not only in this post but other post is it takes a built engine to create more power on the same boost eh? Now almost everyone I know of calls a built motor a head shim (lost power), rods and timing. Which of these created more power? Compression, porting and valve size for the most part is about it when it comes to creating more power per lbs of boost. Timing is usually pulled on the top again loosing power.
Second, 200 is an arbitrary number since no one has any clue what the Pro is going to produce at said boost. 300 is also an arbitrary number since I don't have any dyno proof, nor I can bet do you. So I will take it your insinuation is more to defame me than get actual facts. So lets play.
You ask which sleds I have produce 300hp. An apex with stock compression will run circles around a lower compression apex with built internals. Been there done done that. If you can be so kind as to figure out what 18lbs of boost at 8500' does on a stock compression Apex. Then figure 15 for a Nytro. I don't know since I dont have a dyno in my shop but you must know.
Then figure what a M1000 will do on 15-16lbs. I might get an education since again I have no dyno.
If you would have read my posts you would have read that I will not run high boost all the time but, I would like to know how much, is, too much for those days when I really want to get after it. No one knows is the answer.
MCX kits almost all have lower compression.They take more boost to make up for the lack of compression than a stock compressed engine. Do you not understand this? You must of had a head shim and thought you gained power with it?

As for what I am after. WTF is it to you? If I want to know if anyone has ran higher boost numbers on a Pro, answer the question or move the F along.
It must be a Polaris and Skidoo thing. Been left behind for so long that no one has a clue what folks run on turbo sleds. Ask this same question in the AC or Yamaha forum and you will have a plethora of posts stating that "my reeds let go at 15lbs", or I couldnt keep a top end in it if I ran it with too much boost for too long or what have ya. Not here, I get guys telling me why you dont need it and you need to learn to ride.
Geezus I should have kept the Cat.

 

[JSCC]

There we go again talking big boost numbers without the backup info. Is it intercooled? What elevation? etc. Running more than 12 psi non intercooleed or water/meth injection becomes a waste of time and energy at even moddest elevations. Like has been said the turbo has to work harder to make 15 lbs of boost at 13,000 ft. Well the amount of work being done on the air is much greater to acheive this so the compressed air temp is way higher. At some point you actually go backwards. You get less oxegen molecules in the same volume of air at a higher boost level than at a lower one. The only way to run real high boost properly is with a good intercooler or a water/meth injection system.

That would be a great test for dynotech. Take a turbo sled and watch hp change as boost and intake air temp is changed.

Many other kits are proving a water to air intercooler to aid in cooling the charge temps on the Pros.
This has been debated time and again on the AC forum. Very few cats have run better with an intercooler than without. So a properly sized turbo is far more important on a two stroke sled then an intercooler. Atleast that is how it has been on AC's.
Also 15lbs of boost at 13000 should be nothing with the right turbo. I have never ridden that high so I have no idea what it would take.

 

[JSCC]

There are a million variables in HP as EZ said. I don't believe rules of thumb are anything more than theory. I know there is a big diff between kits and chargers at the same level. I do believe an M1000 at over 16lbs with a 3071 is making a legit 300hp as both Jed and I have seen over 85 mph on the 1000 with a 3071 but that's obviously on the edge. Now that I have helped butcher this thread totally I will bow out and wait to see what Jed and others who will push their Pro can do on bigger hills or in deeper snow this year. I will likely always own a boosted 4 and 2 and consider myself very lucky to have it both ways. Honestly the M1k with a 174 was really close to perfect and would climb most anything until you put it up against the best climbing 4. It can be super nimble for me and made excellent track speed. The issue I had was belt life was terrible as I got above 13lbs on long hills. Hopefully a boosted pro 15 with a 174 will be about as good. If so I will have one next yr. If not the cat 8 is super reliable at 12-15lbs on race fuel and pulls very hard especially with a 925 kit. For the money that is still the fast fun sled benchmark imo. Now I have completely thrown this thread in another direction...

Andrew as always I appreciate your input.
Just dealing with the Poo forum is about enough to make me want to go back to AC. Hopefully the snow will fly soon and people will get these out and start pushing the limits a little bit.