Belt/Clutch Temps Higher on Trail than in Pow, Why?

[rotax]

I was using a laser temp gun and found some weird numbers today.
Edit: I'm running MDS weights, I recently removed tip weight in search of more peak RPMs under load. Removing the weight seems to have done little (50 RPM gain) to nothing to increase RPM under load, but it pulls 82-8300 easily on the trail now (but lost ~6 mph on trail).

I was seeing ~140*F belt temps, ~170-180* primary-clutch face temps in the pow.
For comparison, the XM I was riding with was ~160-170* belt, ~200* clutch. So my temps seem pretty fair fin the pow.

On the trail ride to the truck I felt as if there was a heavy load on the engine, or some sort of 'drag' in the drivetrain. I thought my hifax may have gotten hot/sticky, but air temp was ~20-25* and I was running scratchers, even stopped an checked hifax, they weren't the problem.
I got back to the truck and checked temps; ~180* belt, ~220* clutch.
XM trail temps were much lower, (as you'd expect) ~140-150* belt, ~170-180 clutch.

Anything common to check? I just looked at spring and ramps/weights in the primary, they looked good/no issues. Could anything in 2ndary cause this?

Since I've owned the sled, the brake has been noisy (on the trail/higher speeds [40mph+]), like its every so slightly ON. It is also very hard to enable the parking brake. (I've actually seen others mention the 'hard to engage p-brake', and noise from the brake when moving.) Fluid levels look right. Is there a way to adjust brake pads? Any suggestions? I really feel its a brake issue, but don't know how to fix this.
If anyone has checked brake disc/pad temps, mine were ~140* disc, and ~175* pads. Again, just after a long trail ride to the truck. Little brake usage. Seems like those temps may be a bit high, but only thing I had to compare to was an XM and its brake disc is in the footwell, so I'd expect it to be much cooler, temp was ~40*.

I recently adjusted chain (chaincase) tension; finger tight, backed-off 1/4 turn. I plan to recheck that. But I still feel brake is culprit.

 

[Murph]

DJ-- you can grind a little material off the brake lever where it engages the master cylinder so that you reduce the slight drag.

As for your high trail temps-- are you still running stock gearing? Your belting be slipping at high mph/ high rpm.

 

[rotax]

Rode ~50 miles of pow and steep today, got back to the trail for a ride to the truck. ~2 miles on the trail and a belt grenaded. The whole top blew off in chunks. Anyone seen belts go this way? Cause?

I'm going back to stock clutching (weights) for tomorrow.. As long as I don't let the clutches shift out (stay under ~40 mph/7k RPM) things seem to work OK on the trail. I've never seen trail riding cause more heat/clutching issues than pow/untracked riding.

 

[winter brew]

I would check all bearings from the secondary to the rear idlers. Track not too tight? Stock secondary setup? If you take the belt off and rotate the secondary by hand, does it seem unusually difficult? I agree it shouldn't be getting nearly that hot on the roads.

 

[rotax]

I would check all bearings from the secondary to the rear idlers. Track not too tight? Stock secondary setup? If you take the belt off and rotate the secondary by hand, does it seem unusually difficult? I agree it shouldn't be getting nearly that hot on the roads.

Appreciate the responses and suggestions.

I'll check track tension this morning.

Secondary has the Blk/Prpl spring that was common for higher elevation by what I understand. Along with 3 delrins, on each mating surface. Stock helix.

 

[Murph]

Check your rubber engine mount bushings. If they are the original they are probably sacked out. The clutch alignment can measure fine statically and when you put a load through motor the clutches will go out of alignment.

I have the Polaris alignment tool if you want to check your static alignment.

I have also exploded the 115 belts I the past. I chased HUGE belt heat with my 2011. It was a combination of factors but the motor mounts were a big problem and the motor was twisting.

 

[geo]

Just MO but your secondary spring pressure is quite high. High spring pressure (160 240 plus 3 shims = approx. 180 260) CAN work in the deep because you are doing more on and off throttle with a load.

On the trail (light load, constant throttle) the secondary is always backshifting against the primary. Unnecessary load while primary is not putting on a lot of squeeze). Usually you are at a lower elevation with more HP too.

My experience with the MDS is set them to work in the deep and expect to overrev on the trail. They work well for their intended purpose.

 

[rotax]

Swapped to -62 weights, and 140?/330 (stock) primary spring. Clutching felt much better on the trail, no weird 'drag' feeling, temps were much lower (~160-170 belt, ~165-180 clutch), and MPH was way up (74 max). Pow RPMs are way off (75-7800), to be expected w/ that much weight at 9-10.5k feet. Checked bearing behind 2ndary; looks good. Checked track tension; not 'too tight', normal for a Pro. Checked clutch alignment; may need 1 more thin shim behind it, but its very close.

I checked compression (cold) and read 90 psi @ ~7200 feet. Seems a bit low, I'm waiting on RKT drop-in pistons (back ordered), so I know the engine is dying, like most stock Polaris engines over 1000 miles..
Hoping the pistons bring back some R's.

Edit: I'll look into getting replacement mounts too. Do I just need the 2012+ rubber bushing? Do I need the bolts to go along with them; are the newer bushings a different diameter? Just wondering if need the "kit" with bolts and bushings, or if I can just get the bushings themselves.

 

[newtrout]

I agree with geo.

 

[AdrenalineAddict]

A bunch of folks are doing the black/purple with three delrins without any issues whatsoever, you may want to look elsewhere.

 

[TRS]

Too much spring pressure in the secondary is definitely a drag on the belt. Adding spring pressure in the secondary is a bandaid for poor clutching. Yes it will increase running RPM but it imposes a loss of upshift. Your primary shift weights cannot overcome the secondary spring pressure and helix angle, so it increases engine RPM and eliminates upshift causing a drag on the belt and slowing track speed.
Here is some food for thought. The quickest and fastest turbo sled I have been around on the hill and it boondocks very well, (Yamaha) you can push the secondary open with your thumb. I have piloted this sled many times in the past few years.
Lets get back to the basics here. We didn't run these kind of spring pressure when we were clutching 270 HP full mod 1200 triples. The only reason we are running all this spring pressure is to accommodate electronic reverse.
Think back to when all this started. Team clutches with ER. With the first ER, Polaris ran a P85 roller clutch with a Blue/Orange torsional spring rated at 56/90. It was the stoutest spring ever offered from Polaris. With cheap belts that ran hundreds if not thousands of miles.
We are now running spring pressures 3x the old P85 springs and a $180 belt that had to be manufactured to take the heat. The 115 is the third attempt at a belt since the inception of the Team ER secondary. Why does everyone think we need all this spring pressure with only 100 hp available at 9000'? It takes a lot of HP to overcome the, now standard, substantial secondary spring pressures.
I tested the proto type Team clutch before it was available to the public. It was sent to me via Pro 5. I didn't like it then, but it is now the standard.
Personally, I ran a P85 roller on my 800 Dragons with the Blue/Orange spring, R32 helix and a 098 belt. Yes an 098 belt, and the 098 would last a season. Call Justin at Fastrax and ask him where he got the info to run the P85s on the Dragons.
Think about this, we can easily free up horsepower. It is not uncommon to get less than 40% of engine HP to the track, why add to the loss through poor primary and secondary setups.
How much effort does it take a 150# guy to compress a 280# spring????

 

[Allterrain]

So, if I don't care about having electronic reverse, can I set up the stock pro clutches with very little secondary spring pressure and run cooler temps, or is this impossible on these clutches?

 

[Rick!]

Too much spring pressure in the secondary is definitely a drag on the belt. Adding spring pressure in the secondary is a bandaid for poor clutching. Yes it will increase running RPM but it imposes a loss of upshift. Your primary shift weights cannot overcome the secondary spring pressure and helix angle, so it increases engine RPM and eliminates upshift causing a drag on the belt and slowing track speed.
Here is some food for thought. The quickest and fastest turbo sled I have been around on the hill and it boondocks very well, (Yamaha) you can push the secondary open with your thumb. I have piloted this sled many times in the past few years.
Lets get back to the basics here. We didn't run these kind of spring pressure when we were clutching 270 HP full mod 1200 triples. The only reason we are running all this spring pressure is to accommodate electronic reverse.
Think back to when all this started. Team clutches with ER. With the first ER, Polaris ran a P85 roller clutch with a Blue/Orange torsional spring rated at 56/90. It was the stoutest spring ever offered from Polaris. With cheap belts that ran hundreds if not thousands of miles.
We are now running spring pressures 3x the old P85 springs and a $180 belt that had to be manufactured to take the heat. The 115 is the third attempt at a belt since the inception of the Team ER secondary. Why does everyone think we need all this spring pressure with only 100 hp available at 9000'? It takes a lot of HP to overcome the, now standard, substantial secondary spring pressures.
I tested the proto type Team clutch before it was available to the public. It was sent to me via Pro 5. I didn't like it then, but it is now the standard.
Personally, I ran a P85 roller on my 800 Dragons with the Blue/Orange spring, R32 helix and a 098 belt. Yes an 098 belt, and the 098 would last a season. Call Justin at Fastrax and ask him where he got the info to run the P85s on the Dragons.
Think about this, we can easily free up horsepower. It is not uncommon to get less than 40% of engine HP to the track, why add to the loss through poor primary and secondary setups.
How much effort does it take a 150# guy to compress a 280# spring????

Though the TEAM clutch jumped on the high spring rate bandwagon, it started with the advent of roller drivens in the late 90's. Rollers need the high rate to hold rpm in pow and for the highly popular "instant" backshift.

TRS, you really aged yourself with the reference to "Uncle Burtie".

 

[TRS]

So, if I don't care about having electronic reverse, can I set up the stock pro clutches with very little secondary spring pressure and run cooler temps, or is this impossible on these clutches?

You can get by with a lot less spring pressure. You can still run an ER, but it will slip the belt in a heavy load reverse situation. Very little spring pressure,no, but reduced spring pressure. In 2003 the strongest spring available from Polaris had a finish rate of 222# now you can get one at 330#.

 

[TRS]

Though the TEAM clutch jumped on the high spring rate bandwagon, it started with the advent of roller drivens in the late 90's. Rollers need the high rate to hold rpm in pow and for the highly popular "instant" backshift.

TRS, you really aged yourself with the reference to "Uncle Burtie".

Yes, I did.

The advent of steeper helix angles dictated the stouter springs also. If you want a quicker and smoother backshift with a sustainable RPM upshift you will go with a shallower finish angle.
Here is an easy test to see where your secondary clutching is lacking. Take a flash light and look at you're primary. Where is the black/gray band on your sheave? Why is it there? Your primary is loosing grip on the belt. Why? To much secondary helix angle and/or spring pressure.
I will see if I can load some pictures. One has a weekend of hard boondocking with proper clutching and one needs help.

 

[4Z]

I miss being able to run my button secondary set ups.

 

[TRS]

I miss being able to run my button secondary set ups.

You can. A button secondary for the splined shaft is available from Polaris. Part # 1322815. You will need to run a boring tool inside the shaft to shorten the spline length for the Pro. I have one. Converting it to a P85 roller secondary.

 

[4Z]

You can. A button secondary for the splined shaft is available from Polaris. Part # 1322815. You will need to run a boring tool inside the shaft to shorten the spline length for the Pro. I have one. Converting it to a P85 roller secondary.

You should do a DIY thread on that conversion. Way cool!!

 

[geo]

I'm with you 100% TRS. I've been on a quest to return to low secondary pressures of yore lol for about 5 yrs. "Lucky" that I was on Cat for 4 of them and you HAVE to change out the secondary lol.
Lower secondary spring pressure drops belt temps and lets you use the torque in the machine at less than full throttle. Kinda like clicking up a gear on your open bike and using the clutch for traction and acceleration.

I tried hard with tortional conversions (light side pressure springs) and got them to work with E reverse by letting the inside spring tang to counter rotate with the helix into the reverse notch but because of the diameter of the helix you are physically limited to how shallow an angle you can go. You still need enough squeeze for full throttle eh.

In '12 Cat put out the junkiest secondary ever put on a sled (didn't even run it lol because you could feel and measure the problems in your hands).
So I ordered a Tied out of need early (before they were out of stock) while many were trying to stabilize "harmonic vibrations" with a 2 dollar strap that some famous tuner's "mechanical engineers" lol came up with. Reminded me of a magic act lol. You know pull a rabbit out of the hat thing lol. Howdy he do dat lol.

I think the Tied is the next progression. The lack of twist takes away some of the wasted squeeze needed and leaves some helix room . I don't like to tell anyone what to run in their clutches because it is everything put together but I run a 100 200 spring with a straight 55 in deep cold snow then use the 140 200 when it's heavy and deep then the 120 200 in the spring.
I can change my belt without a tool with the 100 200 spring in.

If only Team made a race version (light weight) of the Tied.

 

[Desperado]

secondary

Geo, not to hijack the thread at all but I do have a question. When you ran cats did you ever try a softer spring in the secondary other than that stock orange spring. I'm referring specifically to an 09 m8. I do run MDS in the primary too.