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Awesome thread about race fuel and 100LL

Just read that article... Ya when they say stuff like "Avgas is the highest quality fuel a refinery can make" that makes a guy feel pretty good about it. I guess just don't push it beyond it's octane range and Bobs your uncle.....

I am not saying that you can replace race gas with Avgas. I am saying that avgas will perform in a high RPM turbo application as long as 100 octane meets your turbo set up requirements. Some people belive that Avgas is only for low RPM motors and that is simply not true. I have used Avgas in sleds for years.
 
for those that mix,

I just looked at the local 100ll prices, and went to the octane calculator to compare mixing with av compared to race.

to obtain a 96 oct mix, you'd need 8 gal pump, and 2 gal 116 (right at about $7/gal here)

Race mix

8 gal 91 ($3/gal) $24
2 gal 116 ($7/gal) $14

$38


av mix

6.2 gal 91 $18.60
3.8 gal 100LL (used 104 based on data in article) $17.86

36.46

For me, the fact that I'd need twice as much of something I have to store doesn't make it worth saving $1.54 a tank. The convenience of only needing 2 gal per tank is a big factor for why I buy 116

Obviously, if you can just swing to an airport & fill up EASILY... that's pretty simple. For me, it's an hour trip to go get either, so the less I need the easier for me.

Just thought I'd give a comparison, since the price of av-gas seems so tempting.
 
What is the MON of the 116 you are running? Your calculations assume it is 116, which I highly doubt. I know most 110 is only 105-106.

I can't believe you can buy 116 for $7. You can't hardly buy 110 around here for that price.
 
For you guys in the states the cost saving Isn't nearly as large as it us here in Canada. Av gas costs me 1/2 of what vp 111 does. I think a barrel of C12 is 850 (15ish bucks a gallon) or 4 dollars a liter. Av gas is 1.40 per liter. So for me it is a no brainer. I had Linderman recut my head for av gas and also got Brad Story to fab up a water to air intercooler for me. Last year I was fine at 12 lbs. This year I am going to try 13 or 14 lbs. This is all at about 5000 to 6000 ft
 
What is the MON of the 116 you are running? Your calculations assume it is 116, which I highly doubt. I know most 110 is only 105-106.

I can't believe you can buy 116 for $7. You can't hardly buy 110 around here for that price.

No idea.

If you compare apples to apples with the 100 being called 100 & the 116 being 116, there's no comparison, the 116 destroys it price wise.

I get my race gas at bandimere speedway, they've got fresh fuel, and very good prices compared to others (guessing they sell a touch of it considering how many people race there). I'm going off last years prices, but last year 116 was JUST under 7 & 114 or 112 weren't much less, so I went with 116. The math just makes sense for me. (guessing the 116 will maybe be 7.25 or so this year?)
 
We picked up 110 for $6.40/gallon. Usually have to buy over 8 bbls to get a pretty good price.
 
for those that mix,

I just looked at the local 100ll prices, and went to the octane calculator to compare mixing with av compared to race.

to obtain a 96 oct mix, you'd need 8 gal pump, and 2 gal 116 (right at about $7/gal here)

Race mix

8 gal 91 ($3/gal) $24
2 gal 116 ($7/gal) $14

$38


av mix

6.2 gal 91 $18.60
3.8 gal 100LL (used 104 based on data in article) $17.86

36.46

For me, the fact that I'd need twice as much of something I have to store doesn't make it worth saving $1.54 a tank. The convenience of only needing 2 gal per tank is a big factor for why I buy 116

Obviously, if you can just swing to an airport & fill up EASILY... that's pretty simple. For me, it's an hour trip to go get either, so the less I need the easier for me.

Just thought I'd give a comparison, since the price of av-gas seems so tempting.

I don't buy my Avgas from an airport. I buy it from the fuel distributor in town (Suburban Propane, Crowley fuels). Those are the companies we have here. I am not sure who your fuel distributors are were you are at. If you know a excavator ask them where they get there bulk fuel for equipment. Buying it at a airport is the most expensive way, I just paid $4.03 per gallon for Avgas here in AK. I have a 100 Gallon transfer tank in my truck that I use.

Jason
 
Here is a bunch of info I found on another forum.. Some good comparisons..

Got a couple hundred liters of the 100LL Hope it goes well!



Bunch of info I scrounged up on Avgas. Just to get the facts out instead of everyone not knowing.

Heres some info from conoco phillips. Look down to the octane lean. That is the MON rating.

http://www.experimentalaircraft.info/doc/Avgas-specs.pdf



Additives - AO Antioxidants mg/gal 45.4

Additives - Conductivity Conductivity Improver 842

Additives - Dye Blue Dye mg/gal 10.2 805

Additives - General Note General Note 878

API Gravity (60 Deg F) D 4052 Density & Rel Dens API Report

Appearance D 4176 Wtr & Part Cont, Proc 1 Pass 841

Color, Visual D 2392 Color of Dyed Av Gas Blue

Copper Strip Corrosion D 130 Cu Str 2 Hr @ 212 F Rating 1b

Dist 10 Vol% Evap D 86 Dist at Atm Press Deg F 167

Dist 10%+50% Evap D 86 Dist at Atm Press Deg F 275

Dist 40 Vol% Evap D 86 Dist at Atm Press Deg F 167

Dist 50 Vol% Evap D 86 Dist at Atm Press Deg F 221

Dist 90 Vol% Evap D 86 Dist at Atm Press Deg F 275

Dist End Pt, corr D 86 Dist at Atm Press Deg F 338

Dist IBP, corr D 86 Dist at Atm Press Deg F Report

Dist Loss, corr D 86 Dist at Atm Press Vol% 1.5

Dist Recov, corr D 86 Dist at Atm Press Vol% 97

Dist Residue D 86 Dist at Atm Press Vol% 1.5

Freeze Pt D 2386 Freeze Pt by manual Deg C -58 808

Lead (Pb) D 5059 Lead by X-ray Spec gPb/gal 2.12

Lead as TEL eq D 5059 Lead by X-ray Spec ml TEL/gal 2.00

Net Heat of Combustion D 3338 Net Heat of Comb BTU/lb 18,720 835

Octane, Lean Number D 2700 Knock Charac by Motor 99.5

Octane, Performance No. D 909 Knock by Supercharge 130.0 809

Ox Stab, Lead Precip D 873 Ox Stab, 5 hrs aging mg/100ml 3 851

Ox Stab, Potential Gum D 873 Ox Stab, 5 hrs aging mg/100ml 6 851

Sulfur D 2622 S by X-ray Fluo Spec Wt% 0.05

Vapor Pressure (ASTM D 5191 VP Grabner (ASTM eq) psi 5.5 7.1

Water Rxn Vol Change D 1094 Water Rxn by manual ml + or - 2

Other - See Note Referee Methods 826

Other - See Note Test Tolerances





From Shell

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/7671746/ASTM-D-910-(Grades-Avgas-100-and-Avgas-100LL)



Typical Properties

Property

Max Value

Min Value

Knock Rating, Lean Mixture (Motor Method) Octane Number 99.5

Knock Rating, Rich Mixture (Supercharge Method) Performance Number 130

Freezing Point ºC -58

Distillation end point ºC 170

Reid Vapour Pressure @ 38ºC kPa 49 38

Sulphur content %m 0.05

Tetraethyl lead content gPb/l Avgas 100LL 0.56



Colour Blue





From BP, Though I have found other literature from BP stating that the Motor octane is 99.5 minimum, this is what is shown.

http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_int...s_pdfs/a/air_bp_products_handbook_04004_1.pdf



BP AVGAS 100LL

Specifications

British Def Stan 91-90

USA ASTM D910

Typical Properties

Knock rating

Lean mixture, aviation rating 105

Rich mixture, supercharge method 133

Tetraethyl lead, gPb/l 0.52

Colour Blue

Specific energy, net, MJ/kg 43.73

Density at 15ºC, kg/m3 715

Distillation

Initial boiling point, ºC 41

10% vol. evaporated at ºC 58

40% vol. evaporated at ºC 92

50% vol. evaporated at ºC 101

90% vol. evaporated at ºC 128

Final boiling point, ºC 156

Sum of 10% and 50% evaporated temperatures, ºC 164

Recovery, % vol 98

Residue, % vol 1

Loss, % vol 1

Vapour pressure, kPa 41.6

Freezing point, ºC below -60

Sulphur, % mass 0.0003

Copper strip corrosion (2h at 100ºC) 1

Existent gum, mg/100ml 1

Oxidation stability

Potential gum, mg/100ml 0.5

Lead precipitate, mg/100ml 1.0

Water reaction

Volume change, ml Nil

Interface rating 1
devilrmk
02-04-2010, 11:27 PM
Just to compare here.

Pump gas "87" octane regular is 82-83 MON or motor octane

Super or "92,93" octane is 87-88 MON.


The only race gas that I know is Sunoco 110 which is 105 MON
Jim
02-05-2010, 08:28 PM
This was a post by hammer on totally yamaha a few years back. Now I wouldnt argue with this gentlmen about much.

Tuesday, 31 January 2006

The following results were compiled by Intertek (fuel testing service)

OBJECTIVE:

To establish the RON (research octane number) and MON (motor octane number)

MON number is a better indication of fuel quality because it is more representative of high rpm, high load, conditions. The closer the RON and MON are the more stable the fuel is.

METHOD:

Use of CFR research engine with variable compression.
All test work carried out to ASTM D2699/D2700 standards.

RESULT:

100LL (Avgas) 100.5 MON and 103.2 RON (101.5 AKI)
91 premium unleaded 86.7 MON and 95.8 RON (91.2 AKI)

75% Avgas + 25% premium unleaded 92.9 MON 101.5 RON (97.2 AKI)
50% Avgas + 50% premium unleaded 91.6 MON 100.3 RON (95.9 AKI)
25% Avgas + 75% premium unleaded 88.5 MON 98.8 RON (93.6 AKI)

===============================================

Examples of fuel properties:

Sunoco 110
Specific Gravity 0.72
Research Octane 115
Motor Octane 105
Reid Vapor Pressure 8.0
Boiling Point (liquid to vapor)
10% Evaporation 160
90% Evaporation 260

100LL (Avgas)
Specific Gravity 0.67
Research Octane 103.2
Motor Octane 100.5
Reid Vapor Pressure 7.0
Boiling Point (liquid to vapor)
10% Evaporation 75
90% Evaporation 135

Torco 100 (Unleaded oxygenated)
Specific Gravity 0.75
Research Octane 101
Motor Octane 100
Reid Vapor Pressure 8.0
Boiling Point (liquid to vapor)
10% Evaporation 133
90% Evaporation 205

VP C10 (Unleaded non-oxygenated)
Specific Gravity 0.76
Research Octane 104
Motor Octane 96
Reid Vapor Pressure 1.9
Boiling Point (liquid to vapor)
10% Evaporation 212
90% Evaporation 266
_________________
Riding Yamaha Since 1978
Military Background:
B-52 Aerospace Maintenance
Precision Measurement Equipment
F-16 Avionics Systems
F-15 Avionics Systems
Information Management
devilrmk
 
My thought as well. I have seen race gas "recommended" but I have not seen a turbo mfg say that you shouldn't use 100LL -- unless you are running boost levels that are beyond what 100LL can handle. Most manufacturers are advertising "pump gas kits" and "race gas kits." If they are designing their race gas kits for 14+ pounds of boost, my estimation is that AV Gas won't perform safely at that level of boost so they don't recommend it. If you want to run 12-13 lbs on 100LL at 11,000+ elevation with an intercooler, my experience says you'll get along fine. But if you want 12-13 lbs at 6000 elevation, it would be safer to run a higher octane race gas.

CPI in Utah recommended I run 100ll in my 04 900 cat mitsubishi turbo at 5000 feet, up to 12# of boost. That is where they do all their testing. I still run race fuel, but after reading this I think I will try AV.

That being said, don't know what they are recommending for their new setups.
 
avgas in bulk. ie. tanker load is about $4.05 a gallon

$4.05 gallon cost airport sales it for $4.79 gallon
Locally 93 octane is $3.35 a gallon run 7-7.5 psi boost above 5000 feet, on avgas i'd run 9psi of boost on boondocker setup above 5000.
 
I have some thoughts about this. Im Running my 09 M8 with CPC stage 3 kit at 1000-3000 feet, 13psi of boost and 50/50 premium pumpgas (98 RON octane here in Sweden) and 110+ MON octane racefuel.

Im now having some problems with my racefuel delivery and Im out of fuel... and the cost is about 45$ /gallon for this fuel.
Just found out that I could get some 100LL from a guy here in town, and Im thinking of testing it in my sled. will run 100% 100LL, will I need to bleend some oil in it or is it safe to just go with no bleending?

I can probably get a hold of 50 liter of my racegas but that wont last for long, should be safe to bleend in about 10 Liter with the 100LL fuel or am I wrong?
 
Im guessing the reason that none of the manufacturers recommend running av gas is its illegal.
In the US if you have to go to a counter to pay for the gas they will make you sign a form. The form states that it is illegal to use av gas in any other vehicle other than aviation. Probably shouldnt even be discussing it on the site, big brother is probably watching.
run a 1200 HTA at 12lbs with 50/50 av / race no problems
had it at 10lbs on straight av runs great.
 
Im guessing the reason that none of the manufacturers recommend running av gas is its illegal.
In the US if you have to go to a counter to pay for the gas they will make you sign a form. The form states that it is illegal to use av gas in any other vehicle other than aviation. Probably shouldnt even be discussing it on the site, big brother is probably watching.
run a 1200 HTA at 12lbs with 50/50 av / race no problems
had it at 10lbs on straight av runs great.

I'm perfectly likely to be off on this, but I believe it's just illegal to use as an ON ROAD fuel.

When I bought from an airport in W. CO, they said there was no limitation to selling it (actually laughed that other airports wouldn't sell it) other than highway use.

It's the same as using race fuel, you can't use that for highway use either.
I'd guess there's different laws in each state, but there's no form in CO or UT that I know of.

This tank will be my first with straight avgas, my 11 seems to require MUCH more octane than my 09. I'm adding over double the race fuel in this sled, which is getting pricey (yeah... that calculation above... not quite cuttin it in this machine) I had no idea that even with the head cut I would require so much higher octane with the newer motor.
 
1 was in NV. which really supprised me, Ill have to stop by again and get a copy of the reciept. other was in CA.
Id like to post other crap that happens in CA but not on a open site. Im guessing its going to start happening in other states, lets just say its BS!

Im sure with all the different head and elevation configurations dealers may not want to go through all the hoops to explain av gas options? It is cutting it a little closer and you have to keep an eye on things when you start, 110 is good up around 18lbs +. Not too many go above that.

So back to the topic 10lbs on av 7k elev no problem, have appx. 80gal. through the sled.
 
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Off road is fine, on road is not.

In Canada I not only fill my jerry cans at the airport with my sled sitting on the back of my truck, I fill the sled at the airport as well.

With all the paranoia in your posts snowdevil I'm kinda thinkin you might have had some experiments run on you in the past...lol JK

Zeiteist, Zeitgeist!!! lol
 
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Local builder (VOHK) actually specifically is recommending a mix now, 5 gal av, 5 gal 91, 1 gal toluene for his BD RG kit customers (two guys I know are running 12 on that mix)

I can get race fuel for less than the toluene that matches the octane, (it's only 114 & is $10/ gallon here) but it's really easy to find, everyone has a Sherwin Williams around them I'd think, so that's a pretty easy way to do things.

I'll post what I get for psi max out of straight AV gas after the weekend. I'm running 20-25% 116 right now & I get det on rare occasion as I back SLIGHTLY off from full throttle toward the top of a big pull. WFO... no problem at all.
 
I have been running 100LL in my 2010 m8 with push turbo. I have been running it at about 8 lbs at 7500+ft running 50-50ish 100LL and prem then down low at 1000ft elev. running straight 100LL at 8 psi no problems in 1000 miles. I am running the stock ho head with 2 deg. timing key.
 
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