Avalanche bags: The fatal flaw.

[CoyoteGirl]

The second you put that pack on your back you are immediately thinking about the possibility of what could happen and are more aware.

This is what the bag does for me.. serves as a reminder. It doesn't give me permission to go do things I wouldn't otherwise do. However it does give me one more tool or fighting chance should I mess up that day and make a bad decision that results in my being caught in an avalanche. But mostly, it's a holder for my shovel, probe, extra gloves, goggles, first aid gear, etc and a reminder that today isn't a good day to die.

 

[BOHICA]

This is what the bag does for me.. serves as a reminder. It doesn't give me permission to go do things I wouldn't otherwise do. However it does give me one more tool or fighting chance should I mess up that day and make a bad decision that results in my being caught in an avalanche. But mostly, it's a holder for my shovel, probe, extra gloves, goggles, first aid gear, etc and a reminder that today isn't a good day to die.

Well said!!!!!

 

[tek9tim]

Yeah, I'm digging this up out of the past. Here are my rambling, amateur thoughts on the subject...

I bet old schoolers had the same discussion when beacons came out, now we wouldn't dream of riding without one.

A whole other deal, but a parallel I see is the use of fire shelters in wildland fire fighting. In the US, we all carry them. 2 other countries that fight a lot of fire, Canada and Australia, don't carry them. Canada just quit a few years ago, and their rationale was that if their guys didn't have a last resort survival option bouncing off their arse all day long, they wouldn't take excess risk. The US still leads the world in burning up firefighters, despite carrying shelters.

One other parallel... Chainsaw chaps. I started running a saw when I was 12. Never even heard of chaps until I was 18. Been cutting with them now for 10 years and haven't even nicked them with a saw. Every year, I train chuckleheads to run a saw and about 5 out of 10 cut their chaps in the first 2 weeks. If they didn't have them on, the consequences would be worse. For me, developing habits without the safety net of chaps made me keep the saw away from my legs. It is excessive risk to run a saw especially in the brush, without chaps. But taking some time to run saw without a backup safety gear makes you pay more attention.

Go for a ride in the mountains without your group having any avy gear and tell me you ride the same areas in the same way you do fully geared up. Guarantee you pay more attention and take less risk.

I agree that airbags are a good idea. It does seem that everybody nowadays prides themselves on their tree riding, and this kind of airbag doesn't help much with blunt force trauma.

Shoot some holes in my ideas, I have an open mind.

 

[907riders.com]

I sell a lot of these bags to fellow snowmachiners and skiers here in Alaska and based on this experience I can say that the majority 95% of the people that make the investment of the avalanche bag do not make the purchase so they can ride in hazardous conditions. I have found that these folks are well educated and are either fully trained or in the process of training on Avalanche Awareness.

I disagree with the statement that an Avalanche bag promotes the idea of taking additional risks. Everyone wears these bags for the added protection when all hell breaks loose with the hopes of coming home to family and friends at the end of the day.

This has been a great post and has brought many great points to light. Thank you for the discussion!

 

[sidehil]

Great thread, got me to go weigh my abs cyclinder which I have not done this season! Pack is useless with out gas.

 

[EagleRiverDee]

Go for a ride in the mountains without your group having any avy gear and tell me you ride the same areas in the same way you do fully geared up. Guarantee you pay more attention and take less risk.

Shoot some holes in my ideas, I have an open mind.

Maybe some people do. I don't. My group doesn't. Here's the bottom line- if you are buried in avalanche (not just caught in one, but buried) you have a 50% chance of dying right there. Even if you have a beacon on. Even if you partners are trained.

Every minute of burial, your life expectancy dips significantly, and past 15 minutes it gets ugly.

A burial beyond 6 feet is nearly always fatal because you can't be dug out in time.

I could continue quoting statistics but the bottom line is that my goal is to avoid getting into an avalanche to begin with no matter what my gear and no matter my training or my riding partners' training. To me, a beacon is primarily a body recovery tool. Can it save lives? Yes. And I guarantee I would not stop searching for someone buried until I found them and dug them out, regardless of what the statistics say and I would have the urgency of believing they were alive until proven otherwise. But the sobering facts are that avalanches are just flat deadly and the best course of action is not to get in them. And is upon that basis that I make my route planning decisions. An avy bag is on my list of things to get, but it won't make me more reckless. Avy's can happen so suddenly that I don't know for sure I'd be able to deploy it, and you can never rule out mechanical failure either. It's another tool, but not one I'm willing to take risks with my life because I have it on.

I also carry a survival kit that would allow me to spend the night if necessary. And I carry a med kit that would assist in the event we had a major bleed or broken bone or other injury. Neither of those two pieces of kit change how I ride either. We still leave in plenty of time before dark, we still turn around if weather turns inclement. We still avoid doing stupid things that will get us injured. The kit remain last resorts, just like my avy gear, and the way that I ride odds are any of my gear is more likely to be used helping a member of another group than my group.

But I'll admit there is one major difference and that is that I am a woman. I do believe firmly that the way men handle risk and the way women handle risk is inherently different and your examples might well apply to men. I'm interested in hearing what men have to say in response to your examples. Is it really the gear that makes people less cautious? Or are we somehow failing in how we train people?

 

[tek9tim]

Maybe some people do. I don't. My group doesn't. Here's the bottom line- if you are buried in avalanche (not just caught in one, but buried) you have a 50% chance of dying right there. Even if you have a beacon on. Even if you partners are trained.

Every minute of burial, your life expectancy dips significantly, and past 15 minutes it gets ugly.

A burial beyond 6 feet is nearly always fatal because you can't be dug out in time.

I could continue quoting statistics but the bottom line is that my goal is to avoid getting into an avalanche to begin with no matter what my gear and no matter my training or my riding partners' training. To me, a beacon is primarily a body recovery tool. Can it save lives? Yes. And I guarantee I would not stop searching for someone buried until I found them and dug them out, regardless of what the statistics say and I would have the urgency of believing they were alive until proven otherwise. But the sobering facts are that avalanches are just flat deadly and the best course of action is not to get in them. And is upon that basis that I make my route planning decisions. An avy bag is on my list of things to get, but it won't make me more reckless. Avy's can happen so suddenly that I don't know for sure I'd be able to deploy it, and you can never rule out mechanical failure either. It's another tool, but not one I'm willing to take risks with my life because I have it on.

I also carry a survival kit that would allow me to spend the night if necessary. And I carry a med kit that would assist in the event we had a major bleed or broken bone or other injury. Neither of those two pieces of kit change how I ride either. We still leave in plenty of time before dark, we still turn around if weather turns inclement. We still avoid doing stupid things that will get us injured. The kit remain last resorts, just like my avy gear, and the way that I ride odds are any of my gear is more likely to be used helping a member of another group than my group.

But I'll admit there is one major difference and that is that I am a woman. I do believe firmly that the way men handle risk and the way women handle risk is inherently different and your examples might well apply to men. I'm interested in hearing what men have to say in response to your examples. Is it really the gear that makes people less cautious? Or are we somehow failing in how we train people?

Great post. You sure hit the nail on the head as to how people should see and act. I think being a woman is a pretty decent evolutionary advantage. My wife sure acts as the voice of reason an awful lot, and I am very grateful for it. I was in an avy class last week, and there was a group of us guys that were all married, and we disagreed with the fact that having a woman in your group increased the chances statistically of an incident. All our wives keep us out of trouble. Then we realized that the chances were probably made higher by single dudes trying to impress chicks.

 

[Yamadoo04]

Then we realized that the chances were probably made higher by single dudes trying to impress chicks.

HA HA HA that is a true statement right there.

This happened when I was single and my girlfriend (now my wife) was there with us. We defiantly take more risks when we are trying to impress the ladies.

 

[ewsummit]

abs

After reading all this, I ask this. Before we had all this equipment, alot of us had been snowmobiling for a long time. We did not have any avy deaths or very few. I dont no any one who died in a avy, or even been in one. Some of you that say we should wear all this have been in more than one avy and all of you seem to no someone who died. Now to me it seems there is a pretty good argument that with out all this we would not be going into the areas that are this deadly. Just my opinion.

 

[Rush44]

After reading all this, I ask this. Before we had all this equipment, alot of us had been snowmobiling for a long time. We did not have any avy deaths or very few. I dont no any one who died in a avy, or even been in one. Some of you that say we should wear all this have been in more than one avy and all of you seem to no someone who died. Now to me it seems there is a pretty good argument that with out all this we would not be going into the areas that are this deadly. Just my opinion.

And the difference between now and then is sled technology and advancement. Sleds now can go places during and early after the storm that old 340's and 500's couldn't even think about making it to. Sleds are now more powerful and easier to maneuver in and around avalanche terrain. That is why we have more deaths than before.

 

[Xrider]

If the bag MIGHT save your life why not have one. However it is amazing how many riders, I'd say easily 70%, choose to take a chance with their lives by attacking powder filled hills regularly. I see this all the time and think that there's no way they know for sure that hill won't slide, it's steep and deep period. Only thing saving many people is that a slide is somewhat rare. I've been sledding for, well forever, and gone from sleds that you literally did not dare venture off trail to sleds of today. When we first started to ride capable sleds all we did was beeline to the nearest hill regardless of snow conditions and pound away. I'm probably lucky. Now I really stay away from the hills in all snow conditions and still have fun. I'm just not willing to take that chance anymore and it is a gamble, no one ever knows for sure if that hill will slide,

 

[ewsummit]

ABS

I see the tracks where these sleds go. I am sure having a flight for life with you may be a life saver also. Chances are pretty goo more of us get killed on the way to the mountain than get killed in Avy.

 

[backcountryislife]

I see the tracks where these sleds go. I am sure having a flight for life with you may be a life saver also. Chances are pretty goo more of us get killed on the way to the mountain than get killed in Avy.

Not sure where you live, but around here I'd say that's inaccurate.

And even if it WAS accurate... do you want to go back to before seat belts, ABS, airbags, or the other dozen things that help in their own little way to reduce the severity or likelihood of an accident??


You can choose to NOT be prepared in any feasible way you can, but most of us these days like our seatbelts, airbags, good tires... AND our avy packs, because each one MIGHT someday make the difference.

btw, I do take flight for life with me, it's called my spot transmitter. (they're not RIGHT there... but they'll be there quick if we need them!)

 

[corydoneen]

After reading all this, I ask this. Before we had all this equipment, alot of us had been snowmobiling for a long time. We did not have any avy deaths or very few. I dont no any one who died in a avy, or even been in one. Some of you that say we should wear all this have been in more than one avy and all of you seem to no someone who died. Now to me it seems there is a pretty good argument that with out all this we would not be going into the areas that are this deadly. Just my opinion.

i am just really curious on where you find your reasoning for this?

 

[Dartos]

Now to me it seems there is a pretty good argument that with out all this we would not be going into the areas that are this deadly. Just my opinion.

i am just really curious on where you find your reasoning for this?

ewsummit, your conclusion is simply not logical. Every year we read about snowmobilers killed in avalanches and the person had no safety gear.

Last season 2 Utah men got lost out around the Duchesne Ridge. From what I remember they had no safety kit, safety blanket or even a way to make a fire. (they both lived)

I see people all summer long riding their side by sides and no seat belt on.

There is simply a portion of the population that refuse to use the available safety tools that available to them in many walks of life. Be it ignorance, indifference or lack of education every winter we will have snowmobilers die without any safety gear (and unfortunately some with a ton of safety gear.)

Do you really think the person that has the ability to purchase a new mountain sled but spends no money safety gear is going to really put any serious deep thought into the terrain he is riding? I think not.

 

[tek9tim]

So I said that you and your group would probably ride differently if you didn't have your avy gear. I didn't mean that as people who don't have avy gear ride more conservatively, because people without avy gear are plain ignorant of the danger. I meant it as a mental excercise for those of us who are aware of the danger.

 

[Xrider]

Check out the "close call" thread in deep powder section. It reinforces my point about those that choose to hillclimb in HIGH avalanche conditions. Amazing.

 

[Goinboardin]

That ABS study of 20 years, was done in Europe. Europe doesn't have the trees we do here in the states. So the Euro related stats don't accurately predict the US success rate of bags. Just didn't see this mentioned. But, I am by no means trying to downplay the avy bags or their potential to save lives. I think they're awesome.

As far as riding more dangerous terrain when you have better gear...if thats your attitude you don't have much time to live, your end is near.

I do find myself on some pretty high consequence terrain, but only after digging pits, assessing the snowpack, and making the ride/do not ride decision based on that.