Avalanche bags: The fatal flaw.

[snowmobiler]

its safer to sit home.sell your sleds.safety first.

 

[bparks]

ask backcountrylife how good the abs bag is ,if he was not wearing one last year he might not be here now . The bag is just another way to increase change of living throw the slide not a save all

 

[Turbo11T]

How can it be called the "Fatal Flaw" when airbag packs have a 98% success rate in saving lives when deployed? Not all of us want to ride in terrain less than 30 degrees. Avalanches are not 100% predictable, so why not have the best chance of survival. Even the most prepared and well educated can be caught.

Mike Duffy
Avalanche1.com
Avalanche education for mountain riders.

I liked your idea when i took your class about how you said that once in an avalanche you have already made a mistake. The thing about making mistakes is that we are human. When riding in the mountains we ride in avy terrain all the time whether we are highmarking or just crossing a run out area.

 

[snowmoherb]

Skibreeze wrote something along the lines of wearing seatbelts and more air bags doesnt make you more of an aggresive rider. Maybe not but what did speed limits use to be when there was no airbags seatbelts ABS brake systems. Highways in montana where 55 i believe and now they are 70. so i think the whole world believes that the more safety equipment something has the more aggresive you can get. I believe yes the more safety equipment SOME people (not saying skibreeze or anyone else) the safer they feel going into unstable enviroments. Most riders wear these as a percaution but a select few take it as an extra life. I think what he is trying to do is not make people stay under there bed he is trying to get to those select few that do make stupid moves think twice.

I thought Montana used to not have any daytime speed limit at all ??

 

[Woodsrider]

I hope this post will cause people to enroll in a avalanche training class. Until someone invents scanner that can show potential slide areas the best safety equipment you can take with you is training. All other safety equipment is only usefully after the avalanche has happened.

 

[2XM3]

I thought Montana used to not have any daytime speed limit at all ??

Yes for a time, then they wussed out, it was pretty nice to cruise open desolate highway at 90, really saves time...btw parts of texas are now 85.

 

[kidwoo]

I remember when I got my first helmet.

I just couldn't help myself: The first day out I had to keep going balls out full throttle straight into trees. I even did it in parking lots straight into brick walls. I mean why not? I got a helmet!

 

[ewanaburner]

Skibreeze wrote something along the lines of wearing seatbelts and more air bags doesnt make you more of an aggresive rider. Maybe not but what did speed limits use to be when there was no airbags seatbelts ABS brake systems. Highways in montana where 55 i believe and now they are 70. so i think the whole world believes that the more safety equipment something has the more aggresive you can get. I believe yes the more safety equipment SOME people (not saying skibreeze or anyone else) the safer they feel going into unstable enviroments. Most riders wear these as a percaution but a select few take it as an extra life. I think what he is trying to do is not make people stay under there bed he is trying to get to those select few that do make stupid moves think twice.

the reason the speed limit was 55 was to save fuel with the gas crisis in the
mid 70's had nothing to do with safety- that excuse came later

 

[backcountryislife]

As one who was saved by the bag... I'll take that snowball's chance EVERY time over no chance.

I made that mistake that we talk about it requiring to be in a slide, and I sure as heck didn't go out there thinking... "Hey, I've got a bag, I'm good to go"... not even close.

Luck favors the well prepared. SIMPLE AS THAT.

I got lucky... but I was well prepared.

 

[suitcase]

All of us that ride the backcountry, do it for the love of being there and seeing these places, and we ride in these areas to test ourselves to our limits. It took many tragedies for us to realize that we need to start doing something to keep this from happening. The avy class came then the shovel and probes, then the beacons. So on and on and now with the technology of the air bags is here. Now that these things exist we are using them so we can still go and enjoy our type of riding and come home to our loved ones.

 

[Dartos]

I just sat through an entire day of OSHA training. The one thing that I took from it is this: Personal Protective Equipment should be used as a last resort. Environmental, organization, engineering and operational controls should be put into place first to avoid a hazard. If a hazard still exists then use of the PPE is necessary.

So bring that into mountain riding. Once you have education in avalanche awareness and rescue, education in winter survival, practice with avalanche beacon and understand how yours works. Check weather and avalanche conditions and make good decisions based on the available information. Operationally you can do your best to avoid avalanche terrain.

At that point you have covered the controls that can hurt you, but as we have learned, an avalanche can still happen almost anywhere in the mountains.

Now the use of your PPE is warranted. So strap on your beacon, put on your pack (with the shovel and probe), and any other safety items you have and hit the snow!!!

Avalanche bags are the antithesis to good avalanche awareness training and having your avalance resue tools (beacin, probe, shovel) present. You can not ever think you can survive an avalanche. Not ever.

I find it peculiar that you espouse the benefit of rescue equipment but completely dismiss the benefit of an active safety device.

 

[550iq]

Another safety tip: do not lose control of your situational awareness.

I do not know what kind of fluffy-puffy snow slides you folks have that would make you think that an avy-bag will save you. The 9' thick rock-hard slab avalanche? The 1/2 mile wide wet snow slide that free falls 1,000' then piles up into trees with the consistency of bowling balls? How about the one that took my dad out? You know the one where he's on the bottom of the hill and in a heartbeat 100,000cy of snow buries him 30' deep. How about the 6" thick slab avalanche that encompassed about 2 acres and then went over the rock face? Is your avy bag going the save the poor soul at the bottom of the hill? The one that is following you up the hill?

It is all about staying alive, so choose wisely. Remember that Mother Nature could care less if you do or not.

 

[Dartos]

Good post.

Regardless if people agree or disagree with you, It's always good to have discussion on the subject.

 

[TIM]

You can not ever think you can survive an avalanche. Not ever.

In all respectfulness. This is not what you want to be thinking when you are in an avalanche. the only thoughts that should be going on in your head is what you need to do to live thru this. That is exactly how i was able to live thru the last slide i was in. I saw what i needed to do and did it. If you find yourself in the slide, you need a clear head and the desire to survive. Luckily i wasn't buried i road\surfed the slide out.

 

[backcountryislife]

I do not know what kind of fluffy-puffy snow slides you folks have that would make you think that an avy-bag will save you.

The kind of slide that did THIS to my sled...

Is EXACTLY the kind of slide the avy bag saved me from. There wasn't SH** that was fluffy or puffy about that slide.

It allowed me to get to the top & swim to the edge. Had I not been able to do that I would have ended up over the cliff with my machine.

Had I not had the education, caution, and practice I have It would have likely been pointless that I had the bag. Had I just pulled & waited for the slide to stop... I'd be dead or unimaginably injured. BUT it was what got me off the rocks on the bottom, and gave ME the ability to swim MY azz out of the path.

ANYONE who can't think beyond absolutes should not be talking about avalanche safety, as very little from the forecasting, to the terrain, to rescues, to the gear used, is black & white. It's a mighty grey world out there, you just need to do EVERYTHING you can to minimize the danger. EVERYTHING.

Not one thing (like JUST a class, or JUST a beacon, or JUST a pack)... everything.

 

[James T Kirk]

I think the point of this thread is that overconfidence in avalanche terrain is never a good thing. That avy pack on your back should serve as a reminder of just exactly what we are messing with out there, it shouldnt give any false sense of security.

As for the 98% success rate stated above, I am not sure I have ever heard a bigger piece of bullsh&t. Sure, the bag keeps a dummy on the surface in a controlled slide in a controlled environment. In the real world where trees, rocks, and terrain traps are a regular occurance, the success rate is much lower. I feel that it is irresponsible and instills that very dangerous false sense of security in uneducated users to publish a stat like that.

 

[backcountryislife]

I think the point of this thread is that overconfidence in avalanche terrain is never a good thing. That avy pack on your back should serve as a reminder of just exactly what we are messing with out there, it shouldnt give any false sense of security.

As for the 98% success rate stated above, I am not sure I have ever heard a bigger piece of bullsh&t. Sure, the bag keeps a dummy on the surface in a controlled slide in a controlled environment. In the real world where trees, rocks, and terrain traps are a regular occurance, the success rate is much lower. I feel that it is irresponsible and instills that very dangerous false sense of security in uneducated users to publish a stat like that.

I think anyone who honestly thinks it will save them from ANY situation is a fool... and unfortunately, I'm sure those people DO exist, but Snowww1 is doing his best to get to all of them!!!

What you MISS though, is that it can give you the ability (can, not a guaranteed "will") to control where you go in the slide, that's EXACTLY why I'm alive, you miss that every time you talk about how it only works in some controlled situation. The fact that you can change your path is one of the biggest reasons they work.


As to the pack serving as a reminder... that's how I see it, every time I look at that handle I think about how serious a situation it is if I ever need to pull it. I'll do my best to be sure I never need to again... but life's not full of guarantees, so I'll keep wearing it.

 

[James T Kirk]

Think you coulda swam out of that slide with a snowpulse instead of your abs?

I never said it only works in a controlled situation, I said that 98% stat is based on a controlled situation which as we all know never occurs in the mountains.

 

[Yamadoo04]

I think the point of this thread is that overconfidence in avalanche terrain is never a good thing. That avy pack on your back should serve as a reminder of just exactly what we are messing with out there, it shouldnt give any false sense of security.

As for the 98% success rate stated above, I am not sure I have ever heard a bigger piece of bullsh&t. Sure, the bag keeps a dummy on the surface in a controlled slide in a controlled environment. In the real world where trees, rocks, and terrain traps are a regular occurance, the success rate is much lower. I feel that it is irresponsible and instills that very dangerous false sense of security in uneducated users to publish a stat like that.

Something you are misinterpreting is that its a 98% success rate at keeping the victim on top of the snow and not buried. It is not a 98% survival rate. There is no way of knowing what sort of crap, trees, rocks, sled etc are going to be in the avy that will kill you. The main key is that instead of being buried 6, 8, 10, or 20 feet under the snow you are able to stay on top of the avalanche that gives you a fighting chance to swim to the side or come to a stop not completely buried under the snow. I now own a pack and i hope it is the most expensive piece of equipment that i never have to use, but just incase that mistake is made or chit happens at least i have a fighting chance of survival. Survival equipment just keeps getting better and more technology is out there to keep us safe. I used to ride with just my snow gear and a helmet and goggles. As the year have progressed i have included more safety gear as i saw things happen to me and other fellow sledders.
15 years ago i started wearing a backpack that had water, food, gloves and socks in it. (I was 15 years old)
13 years ago I started to carry first aid gear and a radio to talk to other riders in my group
10 years ago i started to carry a shovel beacon and a probe
8 years ago i got a tech vest.
6 years ago i got an emergency blanket and other equipment for my pack
4 years ago i got a SPOT messenger
1 year ago i got an iphone and an app that can track my coordinates without cell service. So at least i can see where i have gone and can see my track to get back to the truck.
This year I bought an avy pack, does that mean that now i am going to head off into avy terrain and say who cares I am going to climb that hill now because that pack IS going to save my life. NO!!!!!
Lets look at my purchases in the last 15 years. Have i used the pack with water food gloves and socks in it. You bet i have used every item listed.
First aid gear? Yep i sure have. Glad i had it.
Shovel? Yep almost every trip when i get a good stuck.
Beacon and Probe? I Thank GOD I have not had to use those in real situations. Just practice runs.
Tech vest? Sure has saved my chest on some hard hit handle bars on a ruff landing.
Emergency blanket? Again I thank GOD I have not had to use it.
SPOT Messenger? Only the OK and tracking feature that shows my wife at home where I am at and that I am still moving and ok.
iphone tracking? You bet ya I have. Every ride gets tracked and saved on my phone and computer to study there area i am and where i can go. I have also used it to help decide which way to go to get to a certain area and back to the truck.
Now that i have the pack I just hope it is a piece of equipment like my probe and beacon that never gets used for it real purpose. It has been used once and that was at the snowshow when I bought it. I hope I only have to fire it off once a year at the beginning of the season just to make sure it still works.

The title of this thread is talking about a fatal flaw in a product and that is a wrong title. It should be the fatal flaw of the individual who buys an avy pack without the proper training, knowledge, and common sense.

Sorry for the long post but its a thursday night and i have nothing better to do right now.
Rant over.

 

[backcountryislife]

Think you coulda swam out of that slide with a snowpulse instead of your abs?

I never said it only works in a controlled situation, I said that 98% stat is based on a controlled situation which as we all know never occurs in the mountains.

Honestly, I don't think so, but I've never had one inflated on my own body, so I can't say that for certain.

I wear a neck brace, so I don't feel that what the snowpulse offers is useful (for me)