Avalanche bags: The fatal flaw.
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S
snowmobiler
Well-known member
im guessing that some who wear a ballon pack think....
should i climb that baby hill?,ok i will,i feel a little safer with my pack on.
but thats just stupid thinking.like buying a small car with air bags when a big truck with no air bags will flaten your azz.
should i climb that baby hill?,ok i will,i feel a little safer with my pack on.
but thats just stupid thinking.like buying a small car with air bags when a big truck with no air bags will flaten your azz.
V
veritascs
Active member
Exactly, the thing here to note is don't let the equipment make your decision. But have the equipment in the case of an accident.
Edit: and what I'd like to add, is that having all the gear and taking the classes isn't enough. If you are riding in avalanche terrain it is import to dig pits on DIFFERENT aspects of what you will be riding. Confirming the north face of a bowl means nothing for the west facing side that could be completely wind loaded. I'm not saying dig pits at every spot but it's good to maybe split in the morning and have two different aspects checked out.
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It is important to remember not only could you be endangering yourself but others. Years ago we had a slide start in one valley and rip around the toe of the slope into second valley were it buried 2 other sledders. When I went to avalanche class instructor stated that the most important safety equipment was your brain.
Yet... for some silly reason people seem to think that when someone is smart enough to buy a piece of equipment that could save their life in hopes that they never have to use it... that ALL the dam sudden... they're a moron that can't think past the pack on their back being some kind of magic machine that is guaranteed to lift them to the heavens instantly the second the mountainside falls off.
That doesn't seem like a bit of a contradiction to you guys??? REALLY?
S
snowmobiler
Well-known member
when i ride around in the spring time with no helmet.i ride slower around the trees and more carefull.but then pop the helmet on and the speed racer comes out im me.i need to work on that becuz a helmet or a balloon wont make me invincible.
I like to think of the bag as just another tool. The beeper, probe and shovel are all tools to help in the event of an avy. Do I plan on getting buried, No way!! Would I like the help of another tool if I do get burried, You bet I would. None of the original 3 tools are gauranteed to save me, and nether is the bag.
I am no expert but I have taken a couple of classroom classes and one on snow. Have ALL the gear. I think the bag is now the primary safety tool in avy safety. I bet 80% of the people with beacons couldn't do a beacon search under stress quick enough to save someones life. 80% is probably generous. My group is better than that but you have less than 4 minutes in some cases. I know people have been dug out and jump started a lot longer than that but being on the top solves so many problems. Can you do CPR? Took the class? If I had one piece of gear it would be the bag. Beacons are used to locate a lot of bodies. Have all the gear, get training, keep your head on straight, ride with good people, stay out of avy territory on high or extreme days and more but I think the bag has replaced every other piece of GEAR as the most important.
Below I cut and pasted some stats from the Swiss Federal Institute for Snow and Avalanche Research.
These are real stats of real people (not dummies) over 20 years of research
Staying on top of a slide is key to survival and this tool provides amazing results.
Airbags, beacons probes shovels and well informed brains are all key tools
to surviving an avalanche.
it's a lot to read, but very informative.
Stay on top to stay alive - Statistics - Separation effect and volume adjustment
Preventing one's own burial - Deployment
STAY ON TOP TO STAY ALIVE
For more than 25 years ABS Peter Aschauer GmbH have been dedicated to the prevention of snow burial by supplying Airbags to skiers and snowboarders.
The ABS Airbag has rescued over 200 victims during 100 documented real-life scenarios from snow burial. In other words it works
The most common cause of death in an avalanche is not the injury sustained when the skier or snowboarder is hit by an avalanche but the burial. 90% of cases of death are a result of suffocation and /or due to the enormous pressure of the snow.
The average depth of burial in an avalanche is 1 metre ( just over 3 feet ). To dig someone out : there is 2 cubic metres ( 71 cubic feet ) to be moved, very hard to do within 10 minutes : should locating and probing, it can take 15 minutes.
Statistically chances of survival drop markedly after 15 minutes. 50% of avalanche victims who are buried are found dead despite the use of transceivers.
It is best to have both an Airbag and a transceiver therefore to locate others and to prevent burial yourself
STATISTICS
Since 1990, the Swiss Federal Institute for Snow and Avalanche Research (SLF) has documented Avalanche Accidents when an ABS airbag was used.
Of 106 documented cases, 105 people survived.
Of the 105 people - 90% were not even buried or only partially
10% were completely but they were buried so close to the surface that they were easy to locate.
Statistical Analysis by the International Committee for Alpine Rescue (ICAR) have shown that survival in an avalanche will increase by 98% with the use of an Airbag.
ABS SYSTEM
Separation effect and volume adjustment
Whether anyone survives an avalanche depends primarily on whether they are able to remain at the surface during the avalanche. If the ABS system is deployed in an avalanche, it will ensure that with the additional buoyancy volume of the two airbags for a total of 170 liters (6.0 cu ft), you will remain at the surface of the sliding masses of snow and will not be buried and/or the depth to which you are buried will be reduced.
Preventing one's own burial - the separation effect
Fall with Separation
The operation of the system is based on nature. Each avalanche consists of individual snow crystals. If these crystals begin to move, e.g. in a flow avalanche, they begin to separate, with the smaller crystals of snow creeping beneath the larger crystals and forcing them upward. This process is repeated again and again as long as the avalanche is moving. As the avalanche slows down and comes to a standstill, the buoyancy force drops, ultimately approaching zero. So it is the avalanche itself that repeatedly forces the skier upward. But due to greater density, the skier cannot remain at the surface and sinks back down repeatedly, burying the victim as the avalanche tapers out. With the ABS avalanche airbag, you have 170 liters (6.0 cu ft) of additional volume within seconds that can prevent you from dropping back into the flowing masses of snow or can reduce the depth of burial.
Preventing one's own burial - adjusting the volume
Volume adjustment with ABS
Cold dry powder snow has a very low density but a large volume. A person on the other hand has a high density but less volume. In order to be able to float on the snow's surface and to avoid sinking, a person needs an additional volume of approximately 1.5 times of the persons total weight. For 100 kg (220 lb) this is an additional 150 liters (5.3 cu ft) of volume. By pulling on the trigger handle of the ABS system, 170 liters (6.0 cu ft) are available in 2 seconds to adjust the volume.
Deployment of the ABS System
The ABS system functions due to airbags in the backpack. To deploy the airbag, pull strongly on the trigger handle. The airbags will inflate automatically regardless of whether you are skiing, have fallen and are lying on the airbag or have already been covered by the masses of snow. After being triggered, the airbags have a volume of 85 liters (3.0 cu ft) each for a total of approx. 170 liters (6.0 cu ft) together. They are made of the same high-strength but breathable material used to make automotive airbags and also have an airtight inner shell.
The ABS Airbag
For airbag filling, the gas from the bottle contributes only approximately onethird. Rapid but accurately regulated depressurization via Venturi nozzles results in a vacuum that pulls in ambient air. Approximately - of the filling, about 100 liters (3.5 cu ft), is pulled in from ambient air. This makes it possible to produce a large filling volume with a small amount of gas - about 75 g (2.6 oz) - from a relatively small lightweight bottle. As soon as you get into an acute avalanche situation, deploy the airbags immediately and without hesitation. Inflated airbags will not hinder you in any possible flight or escape maneuvers that you might attempt.
ABS - stay on top to stay alive
These are real stats of real people (not dummies) over 20 years of research
Staying on top of a slide is key to survival and this tool provides amazing results.
Airbags, beacons probes shovels and well informed brains are all key tools
to surviving an avalanche.
it's a lot to read, but very informative.
Stay on top to stay alive - Statistics - Separation effect and volume adjustment
Preventing one's own burial - Deployment
STAY ON TOP TO STAY ALIVE
For more than 25 years ABS Peter Aschauer GmbH have been dedicated to the prevention of snow burial by supplying Airbags to skiers and snowboarders.
The ABS Airbag has rescued over 200 victims during 100 documented real-life scenarios from snow burial. In other words it works
The most common cause of death in an avalanche is not the injury sustained when the skier or snowboarder is hit by an avalanche but the burial. 90% of cases of death are a result of suffocation and /or due to the enormous pressure of the snow.
The average depth of burial in an avalanche is 1 metre ( just over 3 feet ). To dig someone out : there is 2 cubic metres ( 71 cubic feet ) to be moved, very hard to do within 10 minutes : should locating and probing, it can take 15 minutes.
Statistically chances of survival drop markedly after 15 minutes. 50% of avalanche victims who are buried are found dead despite the use of transceivers.
It is best to have both an Airbag and a transceiver therefore to locate others and to prevent burial yourself
STATISTICS
Since 1990, the Swiss Federal Institute for Snow and Avalanche Research (SLF) has documented Avalanche Accidents when an ABS airbag was used.
Of 106 documented cases, 105 people survived.
Of the 105 people - 90% were not even buried or only partially
10% were completely but they were buried so close to the surface that they were easy to locate.
Statistical Analysis by the International Committee for Alpine Rescue (ICAR) have shown that survival in an avalanche will increase by 98% with the use of an Airbag.
ABS SYSTEM
Separation effect and volume adjustment
Whether anyone survives an avalanche depends primarily on whether they are able to remain at the surface during the avalanche. If the ABS system is deployed in an avalanche, it will ensure that with the additional buoyancy volume of the two airbags for a total of 170 liters (6.0 cu ft), you will remain at the surface of the sliding masses of snow and will not be buried and/or the depth to which you are buried will be reduced.
Preventing one's own burial - the separation effect
Fall with Separation
The operation of the system is based on nature. Each avalanche consists of individual snow crystals. If these crystals begin to move, e.g. in a flow avalanche, they begin to separate, with the smaller crystals of snow creeping beneath the larger crystals and forcing them upward. This process is repeated again and again as long as the avalanche is moving. As the avalanche slows down and comes to a standstill, the buoyancy force drops, ultimately approaching zero. So it is the avalanche itself that repeatedly forces the skier upward. But due to greater density, the skier cannot remain at the surface and sinks back down repeatedly, burying the victim as the avalanche tapers out. With the ABS avalanche airbag, you have 170 liters (6.0 cu ft) of additional volume within seconds that can prevent you from dropping back into the flowing masses of snow or can reduce the depth of burial.
Preventing one's own burial - adjusting the volume
Volume adjustment with ABS
Cold dry powder snow has a very low density but a large volume. A person on the other hand has a high density but less volume. In order to be able to float on the snow's surface and to avoid sinking, a person needs an additional volume of approximately 1.5 times of the persons total weight. For 100 kg (220 lb) this is an additional 150 liters (5.3 cu ft) of volume. By pulling on the trigger handle of the ABS system, 170 liters (6.0 cu ft) are available in 2 seconds to adjust the volume.
Deployment of the ABS System
The ABS system functions due to airbags in the backpack. To deploy the airbag, pull strongly on the trigger handle. The airbags will inflate automatically regardless of whether you are skiing, have fallen and are lying on the airbag or have already been covered by the masses of snow. After being triggered, the airbags have a volume of 85 liters (3.0 cu ft) each for a total of approx. 170 liters (6.0 cu ft) together. They are made of the same high-strength but breathable material used to make automotive airbags and also have an airtight inner shell.
The ABS Airbag
For airbag filling, the gas from the bottle contributes only approximately onethird. Rapid but accurately regulated depressurization via Venturi nozzles results in a vacuum that pulls in ambient air. Approximately - of the filling, about 100 liters (3.5 cu ft), is pulled in from ambient air. This makes it possible to produce a large filling volume with a small amount of gas - about 75 g (2.6 oz) - from a relatively small lightweight bottle. As soon as you get into an acute avalanche situation, deploy the airbags immediately and without hesitation. Inflated airbags will not hinder you in any possible flight or escape maneuvers that you might attempt.
ABS - stay on top to stay alive
I think your thinking is exactly backwards. Investing and WEARING an avy pack every single time your ride is admitting just how dangerous an avy can be. I guarantee it's not going to change the way you ride or the areas you go. The second you put that pack on your back you are immediately thinking about the possibility of what could happen and are more aware. We are all very sorry for your loss but there is absolutely no question that an avy pack gives you the very best possible chance for survival.
E
EagleRiverDee
Well-known member
I both agree and disagree with the OP's post.
I agree that avy's have often fatal consequences and should be avoided at all costs.
I wear a Tek-Vest, carry survival gear, wear an avy beacon, and have a shovel and probe. None of that makes me reckless or changes how I ride. My goal every time I go out is to stay out of an avalanche and come home safe. I feel strongly that the gear I carry is more likely to be used to help someone else than to help me. That said, I'm not perfect. It's entirely possible that some day I will mis-read the snowpack or the aspect of a slope, or be the unlucky person underneath another rider that does trigger an avy. Several years back 9 people got killed at Turnagain when one rider triggered an avy. The avy was huge, and riders a considerable distance away were still unable to outrun it even when they had a head start. We participate in an inherently dangerous sport, and sometimes bad things happen.
I see an ABS pack as another tool that might increase the possibility of survival if a mistake has happened.
To me, what would be foolish is for a rider to believe he could never be involved in or witness an avalanche and therefore not have any of the gear that might save his life or someone else's. Not every avy is immediately fatal. There is one documented case that I know of where a woman survived 5 *days* buried.
I think the number one thing would be for every rider to take an avy course and do their best to avoid an avalanche, but carry the gear just in case.
I agree that avy's have often fatal consequences and should be avoided at all costs.
I wear a Tek-Vest, carry survival gear, wear an avy beacon, and have a shovel and probe. None of that makes me reckless or changes how I ride. My goal every time I go out is to stay out of an avalanche and come home safe. I feel strongly that the gear I carry is more likely to be used to help someone else than to help me. That said, I'm not perfect. It's entirely possible that some day I will mis-read the snowpack or the aspect of a slope, or be the unlucky person underneath another rider that does trigger an avy. Several years back 9 people got killed at Turnagain when one rider triggered an avy. The avy was huge, and riders a considerable distance away were still unable to outrun it even when they had a head start. We participate in an inherently dangerous sport, and sometimes bad things happen.
I see an ABS pack as another tool that might increase the possibility of survival if a mistake has happened.
To me, what would be foolish is for a rider to believe he could never be involved in or witness an avalanche and therefore not have any of the gear that might save his life or someone else's. Not every avy is immediately fatal. There is one documented case that I know of where a woman survived 5 *days* buried.
I think the number one thing would be for every rider to take an avy course and do their best to avoid an avalanche, but carry the gear just in case.
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Rush44
Well-known member
If you wanted to be absolutely certain that you won't be in an avalanche then you need to sell your sled and find some other sport. Slides can and WILL happen if you like to ride in the mountains... human triggered or not. To ride in mountain terrain you have to accept all the possible outcomes. I accept them, my wife and family accept them, and my fellow riders accept them.
Owning a bag does not make me feel 10 feet tall and bulletproof. Being in an avalanche, buried for 8 minutes, and now having the bag does not "re-increase" my confidence. If anything having the pack on my back is a constant reminder to do MORE of what I didn't do enough of before: examine the signs. Wake up and read the avy report, check the snowfall levels for the past week/month, check SWE, look for wind loading, examine other slides, etc etc.
Traveling in avalanche terrain is all about MITIGATING risk, not eliminating it. You cannot completely eliminate your risk as a rider and don't listen to anyone who says you can. I own certain pieces of equipment to mitigate my risk and to help insure that I come out alive should I be swept up again. My family deserves it.
Owning a bag does not make me feel 10 feet tall and bulletproof. Being in an avalanche, buried for 8 minutes, and now having the bag does not "re-increase" my confidence. If anything having the pack on my back is a constant reminder to do MORE of what I didn't do enough of before: examine the signs. Wake up and read the avy report, check the snowfall levels for the past week/month, check SWE, look for wind loading, examine other slides, etc etc.
Traveling in avalanche terrain is all about MITIGATING risk, not eliminating it. You cannot completely eliminate your risk as a rider and don't listen to anyone who says you can. I own certain pieces of equipment to mitigate my risk and to help insure that I come out alive should I be swept up again. My family deserves it.
Some random thoughts
...related to various posts in this thread
1) Avy bags work. The physics behind why they work are undeniable i.e. in a moving medium, items of differing sizes and densities will separate. Heavier, smaller, or denser objects tend to settle to the bottom while larger, lighter or less dense objects tend to settle at the surface. The avy bag makes the wearer larger and less dense relative to the snow.
2) Avy bags are not a guarantee of survival, nor are they a license to ride stupidly.
3) The most important skill any mountain rider can have is the ability to analyze the terrain.
4) The second most important skill any mountain rider can have is the self-discipline to not ride that spot when the conditions are bad.
5) Education is more important than equipment....your beacon or your avy bag can't identify the hazards for you or make good decisions for you.
...related to various posts in this thread
1) Avy bags work. The physics behind why they work are undeniable i.e. in a moving medium, items of differing sizes and densities will separate. Heavier, smaller, or denser objects tend to settle to the bottom while larger, lighter or less dense objects tend to settle at the surface. The avy bag makes the wearer larger and less dense relative to the snow.
2) Avy bags are not a guarantee of survival, nor are they a license to ride stupidly.
3) The most important skill any mountain rider can have is the ability to analyze the terrain.
4) The second most important skill any mountain rider can have is the self-discipline to not ride that spot when the conditions are bad.
5) Education is more important than equipment....your beacon or your avy bag can't identify the hazards for you or make good decisions for you.
I think #4 is more important then #3.
JTK,
Fair point.
And not being argumentative but...how can you make the decision that a spot is too dangerous until you analyze the terrain first?
I have ridden up ridges, which are almost always safe under any avy conditions, only to go back the way I came because the bowl I wanted to ride looked ify. I'm not arguing against caution but avy hazard is not static. You have to see the snow at the spot you want to ride to know.
Fair point.
And not being argumentative but...how can you make the decision that a spot is too dangerous until you analyze the terrain first?
I have ridden up ridges, which are almost always safe under any avy conditions, only to go back the way I came because the bowl I wanted to ride looked ify. I'm not arguing against caution but avy hazard is not static. You have to see the snow at the spot you want to ride to know.
You can teach someone to recognize danger easily, avy classes do it all the time. Teaching self discipline is another story. Think about all of the scenes in movies with the little angel on one shoulder and the little devil on the other, each telling the person what they should do, who always wins? That is a more accurate representation of mans decision making process then most will admit.
R
Rush44
Well-known member
I feel like THIS is the fatal flaw in thinking. Most avalanche danger is not easily recognizable even to the trained eye. Not every situation is presented with easy to spot characteristics. It's crazy to think that you can look at two slopes on the same day and say which one is safe and which one isn't. It's simply not possible. One may be MORE safe, but to rule out a slide completely isn't prudent.
Have you ever taken a real avalanche course? Assessing danger is not impossible, having the self discipline to stop and dig a pit, perform a stability test and evaluate the situation is what is difficult. Having the self discipline to decide not to climb a hill after questionable stability test results is what is difficult. Having the self discipline to sit thru advanced avalanche training (level 2+) is what seems to be impossible these days.
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Rush44
Well-known member
Notice that I said MOST avalanche danger is not easily recognizable. One of the reasons for this is due to the varying conditions that can develop on a single slope. Case in point is Dr Jordy Hendrikx, the Director of the Snow & Avalanche Laboratory and an Assistant Professor in the Department of Earth Sciences at Montana State University in Bozeman, Montana. Over the course of the last several years his classes and studies have found that digging pits over an entire slope (50 pits on a single slope) reveal very mixed data. One pit would show a CT5 (very weak) and the pit 15 feet next to it would show a CT22 (stable). The chart matrix was eye opening for me.... results are all over the board but did show a "general" level of stability when averaged out.
Who the hell has time to dig 50 pits on a single slope? What I am getting at is the risk will ALWAYS be present and it's a fool's errand to think otherwise. You are correct... some dangers can be measured and some can be avoided. I've just learned that I cannot account for everything and I will never be able to point at a hill and say for certain what it's level of danger really is.
As boy scout training teaches us: Always be prepared.
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EagleRiverDee
Well-known member
I have trouble distinguishing slope angle without an inclinometer. But I don't have any trouble checking the avy danger that day online, or recalling what the weather has been doing the past several days (I avoid slopes for several days after weather changes particularly after high wind, snow or rain) or in determining the direction the slope faces. And I'm a naturally cautious rider- I had a friend killed in an avy several years back and still have nightmares about suffocating. I have no interest in ever having that happen to me. I tend to stick to the treed areas and less steep hills, and off the steep slopes.
I'm signed up for a refresher avy course this weekend, both for my own safety and so I'm better prepared to help others. It's been 10 years since my last avy course, I'm due for a refresher.
I'm signed up for a refresher avy course this weekend, both for my own safety and so I'm better prepared to help others. It's been 10 years since my last avy course, I'm due for a refresher.
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