Avalanche bags: The fatal flaw.

[550iq]

The fatal flaw of the avalance bag (the device that inflates when an avalanche hits you at 100mph and lifts you to the surface of the moving turmoil of snow and lets you walk away) is that it gives one hope of surviving the avalanche. Which means that you must already are in avalanche terrain and snow conditions, why else would you have it on? Avalanches need to mean death in order to gain ones proper respect and attitude.

The dozen bodies I have helped pack out, including my dad's, have molded me into my way of thinking. Avalanche survival means that avalanches are meant to be avoided, end of discussion. Avalanche bags are the antithesis to good avalanche awareness training and having your avalance resue tools (beacin, probe, shovel) present. You can not ever think you can survive an avalanche. Not ever.

 

[skibreeze]

The fatal flaw in your opinion is that it is simply not practical to never ever ride in avy terrain. My ABS is there to at least give me a chance of survival if I am ever in another avy. I personally have been an avy that was on a shallow slope that I never thought would break. I also believe that education is the key. I was in 2 avys, one in 98 and another in 99. Since then I have been better prepared and educated. IMO, it would be stupid to assume that a pack is useless. Just as stupid to assume that wearing my seatbelt in a car with multiple airbags makes me a more agressive driver.

 

[kai]

The fatal flaw of the avalance bag (the device that inflates when an avalanche hits you at 100mph and lifts you to the surface of the moving turmoil of snow and lets you walk away) is that it gives one hope of surviving the avalanche. Which means that you must already are in avalanche terrain and snow conditions, why else would you have it on? Avalanches need to mean death in order to gain ones proper respect and attitude.

The dozen bodies I have helped pack out, including my dad's, have molded me into my way of thinking. Avalanche survival means that avalanches are meant to be avoided, end of discussion. Avalanche bags are the antithesis to good avalanche awareness training and having your avalance resue tools (beacin, probe, shovel) present. You can not ever think you can survive an avalanche. Not ever.

550IQ I fully concur with your statement that avalanches are meant to be avoided.
unfortunate for most sledders and all back country skiers is that we enjoy our sport in avalanche terrain. There is no way around it (unless you sled in Saskatchewan).
Avalanche air bags are one more tool that we have in our pocket to help stack the odds in our favor. The stats with air bags and avalanche survivals in Europe are incredible, not to mention the few cases I have heard about in Canada.

My thoughts are

First and foremost, Take an avi course.
check avi conditions before you go out EVERYTIME and make an informed decision based on that information.
never ride alone in avi terrain.
only ride with folks trained in the use of a beacon shovel and probe. (practice often)
ride smart in avi terrain, one person on a slope at a time ect, always have a spotter, stick to low angle simple terrain in questionable conditions and stay well away from run out zones.

I'm sorry about your personal avalanche incidents, I know how you feel, i have lost 4 friends to avalanches. 2 that were on the same mountain climbing expedition I was on. I have certainly changed how I ride and ski in Avi terrain with all i have experienced, but i still enjoy my sled and my skis in the big mountains.

 

[550iq]

We certainly do not intend to insult anybody who has the knowledge. An attempt is being made here to reach the individual that sees the bag as the only needed thing for immortality. I was there once, thought I had everything.

People die when we become complacent. My feeling is that the avalance bag will lull people into just that. My feeling is that the avalanche bag may cause someone not to say "we better turn around". Here's to the hope my feelings are my fatal flaw.

Appreciate the comments, I sense the respect you have for the wilderness.

And skibreeze, I only needed one avalanche.

 

[mothaleckahh]

We should all hide under our beds while wearing ABS bags instead of riding. Saying that wearing an ABS bag equals trying to get in an avalanche is ridiculous. Ever heard of "hope for the best prepare for the worst"?

 

[akstormin]

550iq, I hear what you are saying and I agree. But avy bags definitely have their place as well. The trend of people relying on the most recent technology is not just something that happens with avy air bags. For instance look at the GPS emergency locators like the SPOT. There have been many documented instances of some jackwagon heading out into the woods with no preparation, no training, no gear, and of course without checking the weather, but they feel that they have the 'get out of jail free' card. They just push the button and someone comes to rescue them. The argument being that people now carry the SPOT in lieu of proper training and decision making. So does this mean that only unprepared, untrained dumbasses carry them? No, many highly trained professionals carry them because its one more thing in their bag of tricks that just might save their life.
The avy bag is the same way. It is not a substitute for training, preparation and above all, good decision making on the mtn, but it is a last ditch, hail mary type device that just might save your life. The only sure way to survive an avalanche is to avoid getting caught in one in the first place. But when things go wrong, its nice to have another option in your bag of tricks.

Its unfortunate that some people will always rely on technology rather than decision making, but that doesn't mean technology is bad. Rather, it means that some people will always insist on learning the hard way.

 

[snowww1]

How can it be called the "Fatal Flaw" when airbag packs have a 98% success rate in saving lives when deployed? Not all of us want to ride in terrain less than 30 degrees. Avalanches are not 100% predictable, so why not have the best chance of survival. Even the most prepared and well educated can be caught.

Mike Duffy
Avalanche1.com
Avalanche education for mountain riders.

 

[storm trooper]

How can it be called the "Fatal Flaw" when airbag packs have a 98% success rate in saving lives when deployed? Not all of us want to ride in terrain less than 30 degrees. Avalanches are not 100% predictable, so why not have the best chance of survival. Even the most prepared and well educated can be caught.

Mike Duffy
Avalanche1.com
Avalanche education for mountain riders.

Define sucess rate. The 98% rule comes with a disclaimer and IMO is false advertising because it gives uninformed users a false sense of security. What percentage of people die in avalanches from blunt force trama in which the airbag has little to no effect? If I remember right .... upwards of 50%.

I do wear an airbag pack for the reasons you stated above and IMO on average for most people will do the most good in the case that they are caught. Reason being, most ride with people that do not practice with beacons and have as good a chance of striking oil as they do finding you buried under 2 meters of snow in time. The newer becons are leveling the playing field but training is still an issue.

I bought the airbag because it's one of the only things I can do to help MY chances (aside from training). I do not ignore terrian awareness and snow conditions, but the reality is, there is always a chance for a slide in the terrain I ride in.

You need both, quality training and good equipment. The training on average will be a concern for quite some time yet. Take a look at the viewer numbers in the forum as an example, as I am writing this there are 6 people viewing this section and a few hundred learning how to add more hp to their sled. The reality is, most will not take 4 days of holidays from work to take a avalanche course. They're buying a pack and going riding instead. A 2 day course IMO does not provide the necessary time to become well informed.

BTW - If anyone is looking for a good avalanche book, I reccomend STAYING ALIVE IN AVALANCHE TERRAIN by Bruce Tremper. It's a great complement to training courses (especially if you've only taken a 2 day course) and a great refresher for this time of year.

 

[sevenhundo]

Skibreeze wrote something along the lines of wearing seatbelts and more air bags doesnt make you more of an aggresive rider. Maybe not but what did speed limits use to be when there was no airbags seatbelts ABS brake systems. Highways in montana where 55 i believe and now they are 70. so i think the whole world believes that the more safety equipment something has the more aggresive you can get. I believe yes the more safety equipment SOME people (not saying skibreeze or anyone else) the safer they feel going into unstable enviroments. Most riders wear these as a percaution but a select few take it as an extra life. I think what he is trying to do is not make people stay under there bed he is trying to get to those select few that do make stupid moves think twice.

 

[Ak nitro]

I am sorry, but I think that is the dumbest statement ever made, this sport as a whole is dangerous, it does not matter if you never ride the mountains, than you probobly ride the flats at really high speed and are in danger of hitting a tree stump or something, Does that mean you should not wear a helmet becasue you have no intention of using it? Anybody who rides on the snow anywhere near the mountains or hills anytime during the winter is in avalanche danger, it is that simple, I just like to increase my chances of survival in case I may need it. I don't plan on using it, just like I don't plan on needing my helmet, or my seatbelt, air bags or any other safety device that is made, but in the unfortunate case I may need one of those items it increases my chance of survival.

If you say that you never ride in Avalanche terrain in Alaska means that you ONLY ride the rivers and flats, which in my opinion is even more dangerous than the mountains, I never rode the rivers there, way more dangerous than the mountains in my opinion. Than you must have quit the sport completely and just sit at home and do nothing in your time off, because that is the only way you can stay fully safe in this sport. I also am willing to bet that just as many people are killed or seriously injured riding the flats in Alaska, as are killed in Avalanches. I am just saying for you to make this statement means you never, ever ride the mountains, because any time snow is on the side of slope means if could possibly slide. By the way, I have been riding the mountains for many years and have never been in Avalanche, but in case I do get into one, I am better off than someone who is not wearing a bag and beacon.

 

[Yamadoo04]

If you ride in the mountains you ride in AVY terrain Period. There is no saying i will stay off the hills or i will not be in avy terrain today. Most trails cross avy paths in any mountain. Yes there might be a few spots that you dont have to cross avy terrain but if you think you dont need to proper equipment becuase you are going to make good decisions you are wrong. An avy can happen at any moment and even if you think you are going to play it safe you are still in danger. An avy can be triggered far away from you and you think you are in a safe place then WAMM you are under the snow before you even knew there was one out there. When I worked at Snowbird as a snowmobile guide we had to cross 5 or 6 known avy paths to get to the safe play areas for the guests. While we didn't have an avy pack for everybody they all HAD to wear beacons no matter what the conditions were. Do you really think any one of them could really have found me if I got burried in an AVY? Probably not with the limited training they went through rigth before their trip. A pack is just another tool in the bag to help save a life. I for one have not had one but that is going to change this year. If something does happen at least I have a chance at survival rather than hoping i get rescued by my buddies. Not that I dont trust them but the facts are there that the survival rates are much lower with just a beacon.

 

[WARY]

Sorry about your losses.

We make the AviVest and the AviPack and we got into this business over ten years ago because of reading posts about avalanche deaths here on SnoWest.

We think avalanche air bags are a bit like automobile air bags. The air bag system in your car doesn't cause you to drive more recklessly. You don't even think about it as you drive down the road. We think avalanche air bags are similar. We think people will ride the same way they always have, and not make decisions about avalanche danger based on the equipment they are wearing.

Anyone who decides to ride a questionable slope because they think their avalanche airbag will save them is going to get killed. Avalanche air bags, like automobile air bags, are not 100% successful and never will be.

 

[Woodsrider]

If you ride the slopes take all the precautions you can. First is get training on avalanches and your safety equipment and practice recovery. I started the slide that took 550IQ's dad Curt. All of the survivors of this terrible event took training class got probes and beacons. I learned that it is not the snow you see that is the problem it is the weak layer(s) under it and unless you dig a test pit on the slope you are riding you can not know the condition of that slope. I realized that I was not going to stop at every slope and dig a pit, also realized I could not out smart nature. I no longer make the high marks just riding the tree and meadows.

 

[TIM]

everyones risk level is different.

 

[Dogmeat]

Basically all an avy bag does is give you a snowball's chance in hell that if you're cresting the very top of a hill and it breaks loose on you and you just so happen to catch it breaking loose and pull your rip cord BEFORE you get accelerated to 100+ mph in about a second and assuming that you don't get smacked into a tree or rock going that speed that you will wind up being closer to the top of the snow pile when it settles than the bottom.

Thats about it.

 

[Reg2view]

Take that snowball's chance and wear a bag.

 

[skibreeze]

I've seen a few avys, been in 2, and have yet to see one going 100 mph... I have been involved in a search where the victim died and I would bet a years pay, that he'd be alive if he had had an ABS.

 

[milehighassassin]

I don't buy the argument that they encourage you to ride in avalanche areas. That is like saying wearing a seat belt and driving a car with airbags encourages me to drive like an idiot.

 

[PaulAnd]

I love mountain riding! Tree's, climbs, all of it! I'm very afraid of being in an AVY, thats why I educate myself and riding partners the best I can, prepare the best I/we can.. Even knowing that the risk for an AVY is always there, even on the smallest tested slope, in good snow pack, low risk days.. I would still go sledding or skiing and so would my friends.. But I know there will always be risk, we all do. I also know that the ABS bag is no cure all, Its not going to make me less afraid, Its not going to make me climb AVY chutes on high risk days on untested slopes with questionable snow pack after a snow storm by myself.
So I'm sorry for the loss of anyone caught in an AVY! It could be me someday... There is an inherent risk to riding snowmobiles period!! West, Midwest, East, all have deaths every year. All we can do is try to reduce the risk's involved with the sport, or eliminate the sport.. And I PRAY that wont happen..

 

[2XM3]

Sorry but in any form of motorsport there would be far fewer deaths if people just had the proper safety equipment..... I have seen so many people with 20k + in there sleds and a 75 dollar helmet,no avi pak, no beacon,no tek vest,no survival kit,improper clothing ...just a damn shame.
It is the same as saying that if motorcycle riders wore no helmets and no leathers they would drive slower, just not the case.
Would I drive my dragboat without a vest,helmet and a capsule?? NFW did I drive just as hard when we did not have that state of the art safety gear? You bet ur a$$ I did. But thats all we had back then.
I would NOT ride a sled in the mountains without the best safety gear there is..period.
Problem is not the huge 100 mph avi that takes the entire slope, chances are bag or no bag ur dead meat, BUT all the cases where poor fellow was caught in a smaller slide and died just a few feet under the surface probably would have been surviveable with the proper equipment.
J ust like motorcycle wrecks, you hit a bus at 100 your done no matter what, but I have lost 2 many friends in slow speed wrecks from head impact without a helmet to EVER ride a bike without one. Look at the death of indian Larry....fell off at very slow speed hit his head and died, we lose a icon from a rediculous fall, (rip brother)
Anyway my point is this...people get the best safety equipment you can buy BEFORE you ride.