Asking for riders' input about winter non-motorized areas (PART 6)

[WMC]

Not to in any way shape or form do I would I ever defend the dirtbags that ride in the wilderness but is it really our responsibility to police the wilderness incursions? I mean is it okay for me to police my neighbors when I call the cops on the jokers for drag racing in my hood and the only thing the King County sheriff tells me is they must catch them in the act? So it just continues to happen and happen....Same exact thing here in legalities, with exception for the ramifications to my sport

I'm simply asking does the USFS bear any of the responsibility in policing these incursions? I'm not calling out the USFS just simply asking?

How can we get these areas policed better? How does making more land wilderness due to incursions help stop incursions? This reminds me of bad parenting 101.

Having more land go wilderness when the USFS is unable to police what they already have?? How could the FS recommend something like that? How could they be expected to police more land with the same amount of officers and expect better results?

WMC folks have looked into the Wilderness incursion for years, quite a bit of interaction now at many levels of USFS. We have learned of no real plan to enforce the Wilderness Boundary areas of this discussion. But there is no way to know exactly what plans are discussed. USFS folks at all levels state that they "take this problem very seriously."

With the amount of reporting from various sources, this issue seems to be growing. We are surprised to have had such a conversation here, thanks, and now would welcome collaboration here between skiers and snowmobile riders to solve the Boundary problems. We hear that we should go to Wilderness to ski, and as we have pointed out when we do there are tracks or snowmobiles already present in the Wilderness when we get there! This issue seems to have the potential for some major reaction to the issue. That is a frightening thought to us who live surrounded by USFS Land and see so many changes, new Plans, our entire communities transformed by Forest Policy. WMC is not seeking that, we are surprised and gratified to have had such a conversation here, thanks, and now would welcome collaboration here between skiers and snowmobile riders to solve the Boundary problems.

These problems also include areas such as the Tronsen Non-Motorized Area from Blewett Sno Park. Those four Sections are some sweet skiing. Last season were more snowmobile incursions than my friend from Eburg saw in 30 years skiing there! Before someone here says "call the waaambulance" or something, please consider, for example, how many folks are impacted by a snowmobile riding around the Tronsen area for an hour. With the new machines, we see deeper square ruts. Those ruts remained through a couple of snowfalls in one of the main trails of the Tronsen Non-Motorized Area. So literally hundreds of xc skiers and snowshoe hikers walked over those ruts for a few weeks last winter. Folks drive to Tronsen to ski or snowshoe from Puget Sound, south and north of Blewett, and we meet folks from Tri Cities there. A single snowmobile riding that Non-Motorized Area leaves ruts that are observed by hundreds of skiers and snowshoers from all over WA.

The other issue revolves around areas that are legal for snowmobiling that we have skied for decades, where snowmobiles not long ago did not go. Now with the fantastic new machines, snowmobiles can eat up the areas that we could ski not long ago because snowmobiles could not go there in the past. We understand how offensive it is for snowmobile riders to consider losing terrain, please imagine how it is now with the rutting, and the usual other issues, for skiers who until just 2-3 years ago saw a lot more untracked Forest areas to ski, between the snowmobile tracked areas.

In regard to who we are, WMC, three of us run this thing, two have posted on Forums but only one continues to post Forums. We have on contact lists between us 400 to 500 folks with similar interests. We three together have around 100 years of backcountry skiing or snowshoeing in WA, so we do know a lot of folks with similar interests. We regularly discuss these issues and our proposal with about 20 other folks. No one speaks for all skiers and all snowshoers, and there is not uniiversal agreement. WMC is attempting to find a solution taking all of this into consideration. WMC sees here on Snowest a continuing conversation and will hope that some of us may eventually get together face-to-face to discuss these issues with the goal of trying to look for solutions. WMC strongly believes that if we just remain polarized, at odds, not recognizing the other view, the situation will not improve. We all probably have much more in common than we have in conflict, we are passionate about our sports and the issues surrounding them, thus the debate.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[snowmobiler]

99.9999999999% of skiers love snowmobile tracks and thats where they choose to ski.makes a good trail.maybe thats why wmc has only 3 people?

 

[diamonddave]

WMC folks have looked into the Wilderness incursion for years, quite a bit of interaction now at many levels of USFS. We have learned of no real plan to enforce the Wilderness Boundary areas of this discussion. But there is no way to know exactly what plans are discussed. USFS folks at all levels state that they "take this problem very seriously."

With the amount of reporting from various sources, this issue seems to be growing. We are surprised to have had such a conversation here, thanks, and now would welcome collaboration here between skiers and snowmobile riders to solve the Boundary problems. We hear that we should go to Wilderness to ski, and as we have pointed out when we do there are tracks or snowmobiles already present in the Wilderness when we get there! This issue seems to have the potential for some major reaction to the issue. That is a frightening thought to us who live surrounded by USFS Land and see so many changes, new Plans, our entire communities transformed by Forest Policy. WMC is not seeking that, we are surprised and gratified to have had such a conversation here, thanks, and now would welcome collaboration here between skiers and snowmobile riders to solve the Boundary problems.

These problems also include areas such as the Tronsen Non-Motorized Area from Blewett Sno Park. Those four Sections are some sweet skiing. Last season were more snowmobile incursions than my friend from Eburg saw in 30 years skiing there! Before someone here says "call the waaambulance" or something, please consider, for example, how many folks are impacted by a snowmobile riding around the Tronsen area for an hour. With the new machines, we see deeper square ruts. Those ruts remained through a couple of snowfalls in one of the main trails of the Tronsen Non-Motorized Area. So literally hundreds of xc skiers and snowshoe hikers walked over those ruts for a few weeks last winter. Folks drive to Tronsen to ski or snowshoe from Puget Sound, south and north of Blewett, and we meet folks from Tri Cities there. A single snowmobile riding that Non-Motorized Area leaves ruts that are observed by hundreds of skiers and snowshoers from all over WA.

The other issue revolves around areas that are legal for snowmobiling that we have skied for decades, where snowmobiles not long ago did not go. Now with the fantastic new machines, snowmobiles can eat up the areas that we could ski not long ago because snowmobiles could not go there in the past. We understand how offensive it is for snowmobile riders to consider losing terrain, please imagine how it is now with the rutting, and the usual other issues, for skiers who until just 2-3 years ago saw a lot more untracked Forest areas to ski, between the snowmobile tracked areas.

In regard to who we are, WMC, three of us run this thing, two have posted on Forums but only one continues to post Forums. We have on contact lists between us 400 to 500 folks with similar interests. We three together have around 100 years of backcountry skiing or snowshoeing in WA, so we do know a lot of folks with similar interests. We regularly discuss these issues and our proposal with about 20 other folks. No one speaks for all skiers and all snowshoers, and there is not uniiversal agreement. WMC is attempting to find a solution taking all of this into consideration. WMC sees here on Snowest a continuing conversation and will hope that some of us may eventually get together face-to-face to discuss these issues with the goal of trying to look for solutions. WMC strongly believes that if we just remain polarized, at odds, not recognizing the other view, the situation will not improve. We all probably have much more in common than we have in conflict, we are passionate about our sports and the issues surrounding them, thus the debate.

Thanks for the discussion.

Okay...you've stated this many, many times to the point that your posts have begun to get this crowd arguing amongst themselves over semantics, BUT whose responsibility is it to police the wilderness and if we agree on whose it really is, then what in the world is the solution? Please help us help you. You've posted at nosieum the incurrances, post a solution other than closing more area.PLEASE

I'd be pissed to hike and find tracks also, but so far, out of all your posts, the only solution to the problem is to close more area to snowmobiles and just more posts teliing of incurrances.

 

[diamonddave]

That last part is the key.

I would imagine the cost is pretty high to have some patrolers on snowmobiles in one location for the "chance" that they could bust someone for trespass.

Chance? If we're to believe the 100 or so posts from WMC, they happen far more than chance. So it boils down to cost? Goes right back to my original argument, if FS can't patrol and police what they have, how can they police more area?

C'mon...We need solutions! There's been more than enough arguing and postering on this issue!!! Do we really need to continue one upping each other with one liners and picking apart each others statements? What in the hell in this solving?

 

[modsledr]

Chance? If we're to believe the 100 or so posts from WMC, they happen far more than chance. So it boils down to cost? Goes right back to my original argument, if FS can't patrol and police what they have, how can they police more area?

C'mon...We need solutions! There's been more than enough arguing and postering on this issue!!! Do we really need to continue one upping each other with one liners and picking apart each others statements? What in the hell in this solving?

DD is right...and I apologize for getting off track with Ruffy (but it is kind of fun ). But the point I have been making since the beginning is exactly what DD said again.

Lets come up with a solution to the Wilderness incursions. Closing more land solves nothing.

 

[winter brew]

WMC's tactic seems to be working.....they have sledders arguing amongst themselves.
So would it be cool if 3 sledders that ride certain areas got together and layed out a plan to eliminate all skiers/shoers from the area THEY like?? Does that sound fair and reasonable?? This is getting old....just go enjoy your sport and quit being selfish...public lands are PUBLIC!
They mention trying to get 1,000 signatures.....if we get 1,000 sig's first do we win?

 

[newtrout]

Lets come up with a solution to the Wilderness incursions. Closing more land solves nothing.

Exactly!

The only solution that makes sense to me is that we refuse to look the other way when we see other sledders breaking the rules. Policing ourselves doesn't have to mean standing at the boundary with a camera. But, it should mean that anyone who poaches Wilderness better be watching for other sledders. If another sledder sees them enter or leave, they are just as likely to get caught on camera as when a skier/hiker/snowshoer sees them.

Peer pressure and the general attitude of the snowmobiling culture will go much further than increased enforcement. The sledders that poach from the Blewett side know that they have zero chance of seeing USFS rangers; they need to start fearing other sledders.

Better signage will help, but like others have said, it will only keep the honest people honest. There are very few sledders that happen to slip into the Wilderness without knowing it. These people know exactly what they're doing.

If I see you riding in Wilderness, I'm gonna do everything I can legally do to identify you and turn the evidence over to Mr. Foss.

It would also help to have the USFS throw the book at anyone they catch. A $100 fine isn't going to bother many people. $5K or losing your sled will go a long way toward solving this problem......

My $.02

 

[yammadog]

WMC has stated in their proposal to FS that closure would help make enforcement easier since it will be at the trail end basically, instead of an entire ridgeline.

Yes, it's the FS responsibility to do the enforcement and the signage will keep the ignorant innocent and provide the marginal ones with something to think about.

We take for granted the ability to ride the areas we do without restriction, but it can just as easily be taken away by a good discussion highlighting those issues we are speaking about. I think the FS wants to be fair and balance the demands on the forest, but if it become too much of a headache and they don't have any other choices based on funding or otherwise, then they could make the decision we don't want to consider.

Just like picking up trash each season, we take some level of responsibility for others in that most of us didn't leave any of it behind in the first place. Each time I see someone leaving crap around I say something and plan each year to go pick some up in the summer. I don't go in to wilderness, but I will put up signs to make it easier for the innocent to stay that way and hope that it helps bust the criminals. FS obviously needs help in this area and since our sport seems to be the only ones breaking the law then we do have some level of participation to help get the message out of how negative this could be if it's not fixed.

So Ruffy and Modsldr...let's keep on point and find a way to reduce the wilderness incursions, educate the public(sledders) and fight to keep our areas open thru good courtesty and stewardship instead of letter writing and legal actions with groups that are simply highlighting what we all know to be happening, hearsay or not.

Blindman's dad picked up a bunch of signs from Tim Foss and I will be planning with Newtrout and whomever else to go up and sign the boundary. I'll also be spreading the word to whomever will listen the need to not encroach, pick up your crap and be courteous to others, particularly non-motorized folks that hate our sport. Make them look like the selfish dung beetles of the forest, we take the high road.

 

[modsledr]

I agree with everything you guys are saying.

Unfortunately, there are a couple of groups of riders in these areas who have the same attitude as WMC...that they have been riding this area for 20 years and they have a right to it. I dont know them personally, but know others who do.

I would love to meet with Tim Foss and see if there is anything we could do short of a confrontation to help with actual enforcement.

 

[yammadog]

I agree with everything you guys are saying.

Unfortunately, there are a couple of groups of riders in these areas who have the same attitude as WMC...that they have been riding this area for 20 years and they have a right to it. I dont know them personally, but know others who do.

I would love to meet with Tim Foss and see if there is anything we could do short of a confrontation to help with actual enforcement.

Signage is a start....spreading the word is a start....getting the conversation time is a start....call him up or email him, I'm sure he'd be willing to meet. This signage effort is the start of conversations that others in this discussion have had and that's good enough for me. I'm not sure if Tim will want to meet every individual that wants to know what to do....just jump on in with any of the ideas you see floating by...if none are, then come up with one and we'll jump in.....

Actual enforcement would be hard since we have no legal rights to do anything other than narc them out..which as newtrout has stated will happen if the opportunity presents itself.

We need to try to make an impact on this situation or risk losing the arguement based on example.

 

[ruffryder]

I would love to meet with Tim Foss and see if there is anything we could do short of a confrontation to help with actual enforcement.

Tim's thoughts on the subject from some questions I have asked him.

Teannaway Posse Post 29

Teannaway Posse Post 48

If you get any other information, please post it in that thread....

 

[WMC]

WMC has stated in their proposal to FS that closure would help make enforcement easier since it will be at the trail end basically, instead of an entire ridgeline.

Yes, it's the FS responsibility to do the enforcement and the signage will keep the ignorant innocent and provide the marginal ones with something to think about.

We take for granted the ability to ride the areas we do without restriction, but it can just as easily be taken away by a good discussion highlighting those issues we are speaking about. I think the FS wants to be fair and balance the demands on the forest, but if it become too much of a headache and they don't have any other choices based on funding or otherwise, then they could make the decision we don't want to consider.

Just like picking up trash each season, we take some level of responsibility for others in that most of us didn't leave any of it behind in the first place. Each time I see someone leaving crap around I say something and plan each year to go pick some up in the summer. I don't go in to wilderness, but I will put up signs to make it easier for the innocent to stay that way and hope that it helps bust the criminals. FS obviously needs help in this area and since our sport seems to be the only ones breaking the law then we do have some level of participation to help get the message out of how negative this could be if it's not fixed.

So Ruffy and Modsldr...let's keep on point and find a way to reduce the wilderness incursions, educate the public(sledders) and fight to keep our areas open thru good courtesty and stewardship instead of letter writing and legal actions with groups that are simply highlighting what we all know to be happening, hearsay or not.

Blindman's dad picked up a bunch of signs from Tim Foss and I will be planning with Newtrout and whomever else to go up and sign the boundary. I'll also be spreading the word to whomever will listen the need to not encroach, pick up your crap and be courteous to others, particularly non-motorized folks that hate our sport. Make them look like the selfish dung beetles of the forest, we take the high road.

Good words. WMC does not hate your sport, we just cannot compete and we want some areas where we do not compete with snowmobiles.

We both sides know that we have our opposite ultimate goals, WMC wants some Designated Non-Motorized Areas, and the Wilderness snowmobile trespass question is closely attached to that. You do not really want to give up any land for riding, but perhaps if you think that snowmobile riders can save the best by giving some perhaps that is a strategy. None of us may agree ever, cool if we do, but it would be great to be civil even in disagreement. I do not think that anyone is a monster for wanting to highmark in beautiful mountains in deep powder- I get it! The only control that we may exert on each other, our groups, is try to work together as much as possible.

Really I am not trying offend when I say the Wilderness thing will perhaps do you guys in. USFS and others have considerable amounts of examples of Wilderness snowmobile trespass documented. The issue will only get more well known, the negative ramifications only greater, media coverage may follow. You guys are on the right track trying to deal with this!

So in my daydreams I see our collaborative solution as potentially huge! Skiers and snowmobile riders collaborate and cooperate for shared use and for Wilderness protection! Could be national headlines!

Thank you.

 

[deepdiver]

Well WMC or whoever you want to call yourself. The context compared to some of Rondeedee's post looks very similar. The Ip chnaged a couple of times from the same Ip Rondondee used...explanation easy..laptop on wifi somewhere else while he is traveling. Only the MAC addy stays the same(that can be spoofed also)

The Ruffy arguing..well I hate to say this Ruffy but you are well known for being a "what if" type of guy. Nothing wrong with it but at times it becomes borderline antaganistic. Sometimes I am not even sure you are saying stuff that you believe but saying something to get a rise out of others. Ruffy..remember perception is truth unless proved otherwise. On a good note Ruffy you do get people to "think" a bit. Must be the "EE" in you that causes this..it is very common, I see it all the time with my collegues.

Modsledder has some very good points. I also think it is not time to discuss anything or cater to the likes of Rondondee and WMC. Its like the Obama plan of having talks with terrorists.

I think Rondondee/WMC go on to these forums to do nothing but stir the pot. Then they take the printouts of agitated comments and use them for their own ammo.

We really need to band together as a team for a purpose. The picking apart of Modsledders posts is more of symantical bs than anything. It didnt accomplish anything IMHO.

As far as WMC..they have their aggenda..Rondondee..you blewett(blew it) when you focused on the already closed Thronson area. You always go back to that dont you. You gave yourself away!

I have ridden by the access area from the top of Blewitt and theri is only one lonely sign there. The area around the sign is fairly open as far as trees go so it is very easy to curcumvent the old faded sign. I have been past it many times and not once have I seen a track going into the thronson area. Unless someone was coming up from Cashmere or down from DG trail which would be a very hard and long way. Sure their may have been one or two but that is a rare thing if it even happened at all. If it did it may not have been a Washington rider but someone from out of state that didnt know all the top secret areas. Rondondee..there are so many miles of untracked areas that I cant believe you are so bent out of shape over a track or two. God forbid it jump out and attack you.

If WMC is for real, where is their non-profit status? Her is some of Rondondees crapola from another site. About the Wenatchee Mountains Coalition

Purpose: Advocacy for non-motorized winter recreation on Forest Lands.
Goal: Designation of USFS Non-Motorized areas for winter recreation. Specifically, we seek non-motorized status for the pristine unroaded crest of the Wenatchee Mountains.
Can you donate to WMC? No, thank you, we dedicate our own efforts to this advocacy, and we will not reveal our identities in public anyway. You may help by contacting USFS to ask for designation of areas for winter non-motorized recreation (see Page 1 of this thread)

I call them WMC chicken shiitts...wont reveal theirselves yet want to have and promote a cause. Grow some balls you puzzie aasses!

Now check out this http://www.turns-all-year.com/skiin...5om71ai7&topic=16511.from1276322990;topicseen Ruffy actually defended Saws and Wassa to WMC...I almost spit up coffee all over the place..good job Ruffy!

On this other web sit WMC brags about his thousands of dollars of skis and his 100.00 dollar sled...this is Rondondee all over again id bet money on it! Are you still working as an underpaid nurse at the Leavenworth hospital?

 

[ruffryder]

Sometimes I am not even sure you are saying stuff that you believe but saying something to get a rise out of others.

I believe everything I say...

 

[deepdiver]

I believe everything I say...

NOw that there's some scary stuff!

WMC
Member
Offline

Posts: 148


Re: Non-motorized Advocacy: Wenatchee Mtns Coalition
« Reply #440 on: 06/03/10, 10:12 AM »

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Quote from: yammadog on 06/03/10, 10:01 AM
Not all of it and more exclusions to more people is what is in the works here and all over the west.....


Here are some more WMC crap_ Now he is talking about hydrocarbons, yet earlier in other posts on other areas he talks about his 100.00 dollar beater sled. An old sled is terrible on emmissions! WMC..you really need to get into clean air fuel injection or like Ruffy a heavy 4stroke! Dont even talk about emmissions..the nasty smell from your arse(mouth) is way worse.

WMC: No lands are being 'closed' to Forest users. Some are being designated as winter non-motorized, a use that has arrived late in some types on the Forest. Similar to the fact that one may not just drive a car anywhere, fly an aircraft or land anywhere, build a fire anywhere, cut down trees at will. In an extreme example, in the Enchantments core USFS instructs users in summer to urinate on rocks- pretty specific. On Mt. Adams USFS provides blue bags to be used for human waste to be carried off of the mountain and disposed of properly below. In areas that dogs are not allowed in summer and areas requiring hikers to have Permits in summer, snowmobiles are being ridden. USFS exists in order to manage Forest lands for multiple-uses according to Law and Executive Order. Certainly the regulation of a powerful motorized machine that produces hydrocarbon emissions is reasonable in the consideration of the situation.

This buffer is ludicrious! I have a buffer WMC can have..I gladly give it to Rondondee..it is a real special buffer for the pecker_r checker! This buffer is nothing more than a land grab..add it to all the other wilderness areas already there. WMC just wants more closer to home. WMC already has acces to all 100% of all forested areas..yet they want to limit others.

WMC...thanks for attempting to limit the disabled people in this state that can only get out with the help of motorized transportation..I guess you just dont care about anybody other than yourselves..but that is typical of greedy people. Your parents should be ashamed of you!

 

[rmk2112]

Continued to:

PART 7

 

[WMC]

Well WMC or whoever you want to call yourself.
On this other web sit WMC brags about his thousands of dollars of skis and his 100.00 dollar sled...this is Rondondee all over again id bet money on it! Are you still working as an underpaid nurse at the Leavenworth hospital?

Pretty funny actually. The master detectives misidentified Randonnee twice before here. We all know each other, even the guy that you talk about above, who has nothing to do with any of this- but he would not be afraid anyway. So nice of someone here to post his address, real citizens, "sharing' "family sport" and all of that- plus the threatening words- how does all of that fit together? As far as the aggressive back and forth, WMC is trying to stay away from that, did not want to waste time talking about us and all of that. In time you may read our names in the newspaper along with news of the Proposal. Take it easy, what are you guys afraid of? Many here say we do not matter anyway.

Knowing that we may never agree but trying to respect the other would be better.

WMC cannot read anymore posts.