Arctic Cat is far less represented than Skidoo and Polaris, discussion

[Reg2view]

They didn't drive up a valuation. They almost gave it away before they ran out of cash, they were hemorrhaging money, had lost their leadership team, and couldn't squeeze it much harder. As the smallest OEM they simply got drained by the EPA regs, competing R&D investments, and inventory writedowns. Cat's demise started in the 2000's when they culled their dealers and stuffed those they kept with excess inventory. They bet on volume and scale and lost the bet. The Textron deal was Twomey's last ditch effort to keep the brand alive after he wiped out the management team. He did/does love the brand, despite being a beancounter at heart. If big Tex ditches the brand we'll all be worse off, regardless of whether we ride cats or not. A cat dealer meeting must be like a funeral wake now after the Bass Pro deal for wheelers.

 

[sno*jet]

Here in Washington we get a lot of wet clumpy snow and they just don't work.

kinda funny me and other WA cat riders seem to think they work fine in our snow and figured it was the dry pow guys who were complaining most about the boards. Are ya on a 17MC or do ya got the older wide boards?

what parts are they reusing in 21 from a 12? is the bulkhead even the same part #? thats all i can think of. oh wait.. that taillight! god i hate that thing, was first thing to go on mine. But theyve never just done new BNGs, every year it got better. now they just need to make it taller like the other guys. and yeah, they should put some brand name aluminum bars on it like polaris did. And for the guys who think they need more hp, they could just make a ctech 1000 like they did to the 800, and that would sell a TON. seems like that would be their easiest move to getting people hyped again. Every tiny d1ck bastard would HAVE to have a 1000!

 

[toesmack]

OK, here goes. Some of you won't like this. Have had a ton of Cats over the years. Bought my first new Cat in 1980. More recent history includes 98, 2003, 09, 12 and a 17. 12 was far and away the best sled I ever had up to that date, but the 17 is lighter and sidehills way easier. Yep, front bumper is a joke and the running boards are horrible. Change out for air frames. Bars don't bother me a bit. Why not offer a belt drive? Way less weight and better life, but no, we have to buy aftermarket. Also where is MY dealer? Cutlers, 500 miles away. There are some dealers closer, but Dale has always treated me very well. Have always liked the feel of the Cat so it keeps me coming back in spite of all this. Power? Never any complaint. Also, feeling confident putting on 5,000+ miles without opening up the engine is a big plus.

Are they heavy? Yup! But they take a shot. We ride with a pretty even ratio of Polaris and Cats. In the last 12 years or so we have changed out 2 or 3 Cat a arms. Polaris? Easily 15 plus. Other chassis damage was a similar trend. I know this will ruffle some undees, but I stand by my personal experience. That said, I rode a new 850 Poo last year. I think I could find myself on that in the next year or 2.

Tahoe area sports mostly Polaris, with Cat a clear second. Skidoo appears to make a fine machine, and there are some, but we don't see a ton of them. No personal experience there. Dealer issues? Don't know.

OK, I'm done now. So go ahead tell me why I'm all wrong

 

[BlueDevil]

Sounds pretty on point to me.

 

[Motorbreath_]

Its 100% marketing, I'm sure of it. Doo can take something as simple as a ski rubber, and make it sound like the entire world will bow down at the Summit's sidehilling abilities. (This actually happened...not the bowing, but the marketing.)

Yes the running boards are old on the Cat, but they worked for me.. much better than the virtually non-existent boards on the pro rmk.. Yeah the fit an finish is not the best on a Cat, but neither is Doo.. and they are touted as being the best in the fit and finish category.

The sled works well.. Its heavy, but so is the Summit.. but it climbs and sidehills way better out of the box. If they had people pushing the product like Doo does, they would have a lot less issue selling sleds. I'm sure.

Typically, I only see "Cat guys" buying cats these days... It seems like they are having trouble getting people to leave other brands to buy a Cat. The alpha kind of worked, but not the way I think they imagined. I've seen a lot of left over first year alphas.

I promise you if Caleb Kesterke had spent another year on Cat you would have seen sales increase. Not just because he is a sick rider, but mostly because he had a lot of content and he was promoting Cat snowmobiles more than the paid guys were.

I like Cat.. I hope they turn it around. I'd have no issue riding a new one.. I just don't feel like dishing out big money for one right now, when it feels like a huge change is imminent.
P.s bring back the twin rail please, or at least a pre-order option..

 

[goridedoo]

Its 100% marketing, I'm sure of it. Doo can take something as simple as a ski rubber, and make it sound like the entire world will bow down at the Summit's sidehilling abilities. (This actually happened...not the bowing, but the marketing.)

Yes the running boards are old on the Cat, but they worked for me.. much better than the virtually non-existent boards on the pro rmk.. Yeah the fit an finish is not the best on a Cat, but neither is Doo.. and they are touted as being the best in the fit and finish category.

The sled works well.. Its heavy, but so is the Summit.. but it climbs and sidehills way better out of the box. If they had people pushing the product like Doo does, they would have a lot less issue selling sleds. I'm sure.

Typically, I only see "Cat guys" buying cats these days... It seems like they are having trouble getting people to leave other brands to buy a Cat. The alpha kind of worked, but not the way I think they imagined. I've seen a lot of left over first year alphas.

I promise you if Caleb Kesterke had spent another year on Cat you would have seen sales increase. Not just because he is a sick rider, but mostly because he had a lot of content and he was promoting Cat snowmobiles more than the paid guys were.

I like Cat.. I hope they turn it around. I'd have no issue riding a new one.. I just don't feel like dishing out big money for one right now, when it feels like a huge change is imminent.
P.s bring back the twin rail please, or at least a pre-order option..

100% a marketing problem because they don’t have anything cool to market LOL ... Ok they do have the Alpha track/skid, but sounds like many prefer a twin rail.

I’m a firm believer that legit sled would sell itself. Marketing HELPS, yes absolutely, but theres more to Cats lack of sled sales than poor marketing.

Cat could have and should have done some simple things a LONG time ago and they would have sold significantly more sleds. Belt drive. Running boards. Tail section clean up. New intake. All SUPER easy things to do. Why haven’t they? We’re at the point that it doesn’t matter anymore though, they just need a new sled from the ground up.

 

[ltmfb]

I see quite a few cats here in Utah and the groups that we ride with and come across. I agree that people are moving away from cats, and that VERY few people are moving from Doo or Polaris to cats, especially after the mono-rail craze died down. I myself prefer the twin rail, and a few guys are trying to go back to a twin rail and finding 18/19 sleds to do it.

Bringing back the twin rail setup might not bring new riders to cat, but it will definitely keep cat loyalists w/the brand.

 

[Motorbreath_]

100% a marketing problem because they don’t have anything cool to market LOL ... Ok they do have the Alpha track/skid, but sounds like many prefer a twin rail.

I’m a firm believer that legit sled would sell itself. Marketing HELPS, yes absolutely, but theres more to Cats lack of sled sales than poor marketing.

Thats kind of what I was getting at.. You don't need something huge to be able to market your product. Half of what makes good marketing is making things sound huge and earth shattering while in fact its not that big of a deal.

Every year Cat updated or changed something from 2012 on. But it was like a fart in the wind to the average consumer because you didn't have Dave Corona talking about it 24/7.

They could come out with a completely redesigned sled next winter, but if the marketing department don't get off their butts.. it'll be a huge bust for them. Consumers need to see people hyping it up. They need to feel good about spending their money.. They want something guys didn't have back in 2012 when the sled first came out.. and they need to think its going to completely change how the sled performs... even if it really don't..

Doo needs a new rear suspension.. Its been the same since 08 in the original XP. This about the same time everyone began complaining about the Doos ability to side hill.. People still complain. No doubt its easier now than back then, but its still not as good as a Polaris or Cat in that department. Every year it gets a little better, but when the new models are released in March/April, youd think by the way the ambassadors are talking about the changes for the following year, its going to handle wayyyy better.. and it hardly ever do..

Anywho, sorry for the long post.. just my opinion. I'm sure there are other things to selling a snowmobile I have no idea about.. but the sled is a very good sled.. they just need to up their marketing game and I'm sure it'll help a lot.

 

[boondocker97]

It's been said before and I'll say it again: Polaris could sell cancer and Cat couldn't give away the cure. Cat had a shot at picking up market share in 2018-2019 with the ascender chassis, new engine (with more torque), new clutch, and alpha skid but executed so poorly. Their website is also a joke compared to Doo and Polaris that let you configure and price sleds with accessories.

I heard through channels when Textron took over they were going to see if sleds were profitable without investing anything. If not they were going to cut them. Seems they see some value now and might be ready to re-invest (I hope).

Cat has shot themselves in the foot a bit making it so easy to carry upgrades down to older sleds. I'm guilty of this. With all the updates I've done to my old proclimb I don't feel like I'm gaining much buying a new sled right now. They need a fresh platform with fewer parts, 415lb dry weight, 850-900 engine with factory boost option, hype the hell out of it, and execute delivery. That's what it's going to take to flood the mountain with new green sleds.

I bleed green, but no local dealer now, great local Doo dealer, no new platform on the horizon...really has me considering the factory turbo Doo for my next sled. As much as I hate to say it.

 

[Vern]

I agree it is 90% marketing, and poo has that game figured out. My group is split between cat and poo and in my experience cat gives up nothing to the poo except on paper. Yes weight matters to an extent, but I think the poo dry weight argument is more of a selling feature. I’ve not seen it result to anything on the hill. I’ll take the little extra weight for durability any day. I’ve watched poos crumple tunnels and front ends numerous times, and then been tossed over the bars on my cat from hits that I swore were gonna be catastrophic to find out the sled was perfectly fine. Then there’s engines, we had 4 poos blow up in one season with less than 2500 miles while multiple 3k mile cats are still going strong. I grew up on Polaris but gave up on them because of the reliability issues, and I just can’t see how so many people can worship them the way they do

cat missed a big opportunity to get in the social media game when they let Caleb kesterke slip away, and I think they realized that and that’s why they picked up his buddy who has a very similar riding style. Hopefully it works out for them.

I’m fine with cat coming out with a new chassis, but don’t understand the hate for the current on simply because it’s based off of the same chassis that came out in 2012. It works and IMO opinion is the best handling chassis that I’ve rode. Only current sled I haven’t rode is the two 850s. People complain about it simply because of the time, but they seem to forget doo used the xp chassis from 08 to 16 with updates no different than what cat has done and the axys is not much more than a pro with a lift kit. I know people will argue that last point, but you won’t change my mind. I ride with both and we’ve spent time going over them side by side when the axys came out. Sounds like if cat would just start slapping some of their accessories on from the factory some of the biggest complaints would be resolved.

 

[Clark42]

kinda funny me and other WA cat riders seem to think they work fine in our snow and figured it was the dry pow guys who were complaining most about the boards. Are ya on a 17MC or do ya got the older wide boards?

Had bmfab boards on my last one and BDX boards on my current ride. Can't stand the stockers ?‍. I moved to Montana this year so we'll see how they do in light snow, need more snow

 

[Clark42]

Good discussion thus far. I'm just curious what other people thought of cat in the grand scheme of things, without it turning into a pissing match

 

[UtahCat]

I have been a Cat rider since the M7. My first sled was a 97 Summit 670, I’m a grudge holding SOB and Ski doo lost me forever with that one. Went to a lot of Polaris sleds, loved them all, but the M7 won me over. That sled didn’t do anything fast, but it just never gave up!

My riding group now is all Ski doo and one Axys 850 and my cats. RiotX and I pick up anew Mtn Cat Saturday.

my Cat dealer is Karl Malone in Heber City, Utah. They have won me over. Great service always deals on accessories, you don’t even ask they just give it. The shop is quick for warranty, service etc.

 

[Frostbite]

I was shocked yesterday in Western Montana. 16 out of 20 sleds we saw were Cats! I saw two Polaris and two Skidoos sleds. Most of the Cats were Alphas, from 2019's to brand new 2021 Green and Blue Alphas. There were even way more snowbikes than there were sleds other than Cats. I thought this was noteworthy!

 

[Reg2view]

Big Tex knifed the sled R&D team at AC +2 years ago - Spaulding, Hibbert, Hallstrom, Skime, etc., gone. The teams that Skime, with Tweet, put together invented and brought to market just about every AC innovation - motors, drivetrain, chassis - in the past 25 years (50 if you include Skime himself). Pre- and post-Suzuki. That well is deep and dry. The boys and girls building helis don't know sleds from sled dogs.

AC could/should bet on the OEM snowbike market - huge opportunity in the west for both ends of the western sled market, young guns and older guys looking for adventure with less wear and tear. They will take the lead and set an OEM standard, especially if they can protect some innovation with a key patent or two, and can make it work cost-wise. The market is dying for this, and WIDE open. The world is sick of overpriced bike kits. This could be a great fit with the yammy partnership, too. They have to beat Poo to this. They still have to offer trail sleds, it pays bills volume-wise, but they also own the 4S trail market in the lower 48 with the yammy motors. I hope that's what the marketing warlocks at Big Tex have been thinking. The flip side is - they don't have much else to lose, here. They are just hanging on. In true AC risk-taking fashion, I hope they go for it.

 

[Chewy22]

Last weekend in Cooke there was more cats then I’ve seen in a long time. It was awesome to see. The orange Riot Xs are a cool looking machine.

 

[rkm]

Im amazed how much trouble Cat has with marketing. People still think the ascender platform is the same as a 2012. These same people cant contain themselves with excitement to ride a Matryx RMK.

 

[sno*jet]

I guess you have to follow their page on soc if you want marketing, then it seems like they do more than polaris, at least on the gram. The hype for the new blast was like something everyday from them. Im not getting hit with many matrix adds. NNot that i care anyways, I like riding cats because they are not belly buttons, everybody doesnt have one. They are def. more popular now than they were with the proclimb though. Bombardier has the most aggressive marketing right now, at least on my youtube feed, every other ad is for their damn side by sides. And remember cat just lost their biggest promoter of cat mountain sleds last season in an avy. Usually something from him at least twice a week if you followed. He died out there pulling a steep climb, as ski doos ambassader probably made a tunnel bag vid. No piss match, i love doos, just sayin. Merry Christmas! Hope Mrs. Kincaid and her family are surrounded by loved ones tonight and tomorrow. Great peeps!

 

[Vern]

It’s not marketing with ads from the company’s themselves where cat is getting crushed and poo is killing everyone else. It’s the social media presence from the “brand ambassadors” that’s doing it for them. Poo has been scooping up every big name rider with a social media following that they can over the last decade. Starting with one of the biggest names in snowmobiling when they got burandt away from cat way back when the pro first hit the market. If you haven’t noticed over the past 4 years social media has a way of controlling the mindless dolts of the modern society. People now days crave so hard to fit in that they will do or buy anything they see repeatedly on social media no questions asked. Just look at the tunnel cutting fad. Someone with a big name says something is great on social media and everyone has to have it. So when you have the majority of the industry’s big names touting your product on faceyspace, your winning.

 

[hansenmac]

at the parking lot in west this weekend i saw more cats that ive seen in 7 or 8 years. Ski doo was most popular then cat then polaris. not long ago it was 90% polaris then a few skidoos and maybe a cat. they are all good sleds but as a cat guy its nice to see.