R
Ringer
Member
heres the can of worms nm was talking about
Alpine or Impulse for a nytro?
- Thread starter Turblue
- Start date
heres the can of worms nm was talking about
N
NM
Well-known member
No? And how do you know this? I am not saying you are wrong or right...just wondering how you know this fact.
Well maybe you can shed some light? Are the headers replaced for free or is there a price attached?
If I can get even 1 full season out of a header then thats not too bad at least I can change it out over the summer but when you crack 2 or 3 in a season its a total PITA. Been there done that, not going back. Pauls header is as skookum as anything out there IMO, I don't care who builds it or welds it if its made out of 16G either 321 or 304 its going to crack sooner than the 11g 321 Paul uses.
M5
M5
I could ask you the same question. How do you know the Impulse headers crack more then others? How do you know this for a fact? Have you ever owned a Impulse sled? I know because I've been riding Impulse and rode around numerous Impulse sleds for the last 3 years. In the group I ride with there have been 0 header issues. And this is a group and cycle of 15-20 different sleds in the last 3 years. This is just with the group I ride with, I'm not saying there haven't been some headers that have cracked with others. If you've been around that many Impulse sleds on a every ride basis and have seen numerous header cracks I'm all ears. If you haven't and maybe you saw one or two crack and are using that as a reference to make the statement you made off anomaly isn't fair or accurate.
Saying that a header is more likely to crack because it's shorter is totally speculation. Weather a header is 5 ft long or 12" long they can both still expand. What is preventing the shorter header to expand? Just because it's shorter doesn't mean it can't expand. I would say the longer headers are more prone to cracking because there is more surface area, and more surface area means more area to crack.
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N
NM
Well-known member
Read my post Zeb...I never said "Impulse" headers. Do some research and talk to the experts that build automotive headers. They will tell you a good header has to be a minimum length! More material = more expansion. I was just trying to help someone get an honest answer. I have talked to one Impulse owner that had 3 broken headers in one season. Am I bashing? No...Paul looked after the guy, and good on him. They all break, and leading someone to believe they never will only creates dissapointment when they do, and certainly creates stress for the Turbo kit manufacturer. You guys are not doing Paul any favours by telling everyone that the kit will never have problems or fail. It's a heavily modified piece of machinery and it will have problems. You certainly do a great job of telling evryone that Paul has great customer service and will look after the customer in case of a failure, and that's great.
Zeb...the only fact I stated was "we have found the shorter headers to take less heat cycles and crack sooner" Never said a word about them being Impulse or Alpine.....You did!
header
Popcorn anyone or how about a
. This is just my $.02 cents but I can say that Paul will back up his headers. To me the most important thing about Paul and his kits is the constant innovation. Paul never rests. He is constantly tuning and upgrading his products. Probably the biggest area he has improved (again in my humble opinion) is the header design and of course the fuel management systems. The first generation headers back in 2008 did have a cracking issue here and there. Despite the fact that the Impulse kits come with a support brace to take weight off the headers there were a couple of issues. Paul built upgraded headers I know that he replaced any that were cracking, do I know that every one of those that cracked were replaced, nope, I can only go off what I hear and what I have experienced directly.
As for shorter headers cracking more easy I don't really have the science or data to back it up either way. I does make sense logically that a shorter more compact design can withstand more pressure or weight from a turbo above it. What is less likely to bend over your knee when you try to bend it, a 1 foot long piece of rebar or a 3 foot long piece of rebar? I have never seen a header like Paul's latest header design. Not only had the header been made stronger but much more user friendly in reagrds to installation.
I will try to post up a pic of the under side of Paul's latest header design tonight when I get home. As for the pics Shane no biggie. I should have full pics up by the weekend along with what she has on board.
Popcorn anyone or how about a
. This is just my $.02 cents but I can say that Paul will back up his headers. To me the most important thing about Paul and his kits is the constant innovation. Paul never rests. He is constantly tuning and upgrading his products. Probably the biggest area he has improved (again in my humble opinion) is the header design and of course the fuel management systems. The first generation headers back in 2008 did have a cracking issue here and there. Despite the fact that the Impulse kits come with a support brace to take weight off the headers there were a couple of issues. Paul built upgraded headers I know that he replaced any that were cracking, do I know that every one of those that cracked were replaced, nope, I can only go off what I hear and what I have experienced directly. As for shorter headers cracking more easy I don't really have the science or data to back it up either way. I does make sense logically that a shorter more compact design can withstand more pressure or weight from a turbo above it. What is less likely to bend over your knee when you try to bend it, a 1 foot long piece of rebar or a 3 foot long piece of rebar? I have never seen a header like Paul's latest header design. Not only had the header been made stronger but much more user friendly in reagrds to installation.
I will try to post up a pic of the under side of Paul's latest header design tonight when I get home. As for the pics Shane no biggie. I should have full pics up by the weekend along with what she has on board.
B
BigFish BC
Well-known member
both great kits both have excellent customer service pick the one that works for yah the best.iam going on 8years with a alpine turbo no complaints any issues i have ever had they took care of me.
R
RidnHigh
Well-known member
Personal opinion, i like the 2860 on smaller sleds like two stroke 7 or 800's good to about 12 lbs or maybe even 15 ish. ONce you start getting towards the 17 lb mark you are gonna be building quite a bit of heat and starting to reach its max efficiency although the 60 is capable of pushing over 20 lbs.....so if your gonna be staying at higher boost levels i would go for the 71, it still spools quick but will put you in the higher boost levels as well and isnt as laggy as the 3071...
please people correct me if you think this is wrong as I am learning too
please people correct me if you think this is wrong as I am learning too
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OK, so what "short" header are you refering to? And if you werent refering to Impulse headers why didn't you point that out in the first post you quoted me asking how I knew Impulse headers are not any more likely to crack then a Alpine? Show me where I said ANY kit will not have problems or fail at times. I said "I'm not saying there haven't been some headers that have cracked with others" and I was refering to Impulse headers. Of course things break. My arguement is you saying that "short" headers via Impulse headers are more likely to crack then longer headers and that's complete speculation on your part and THAT is what is misleading. You can talk to a 100 different header builders and they will all have different thories. And they are just that, theories. I'm going off my real world experience like I already mentioned. Will an Impulse header fail? sure. Will an Alpine header fail? sure. Which one is more durable? Answering that is pure speculation.
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BigFish BC
Well-known member
if you like to run over 17lbs boost allot the 71 has a touch more lag but runs cooler at higher boost levels
B
BigFish BC
Well-known member
just go here lots of pics of my build if you want any other pics just let me know.
http://snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=177706&highlight=nytro
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NM
Well-known member
Oh ok Zeb. I was a little thrown off by "Shorter Impulse headers are not more prone to crack than Alpine headers". That kinda sounds like a factual quote and not speculation like you are now saying.
We have tested some shorter headers that were very similar to the Impulse headers, and found because they can not expand enough and flex enough...they break. These were headers built by the same guy that builds the Alpine Nytro and Apex headers, and were heat treated and coated the same as the others.
In discussions with the header builder, he had told me that when he set out top build the Nytro header that he talked to two of the top automotive header builders in the world. These guys test hundreds of headers and know what works. They do not just have theories like you suggest, but they actually test and test again until they are satisfied there product is the best it can be. Both of the engineers that he talked to were adament that the header runners were no shorter than 10.75 inches and if they were shorter they would lose efficiency and would be more prone to failure. That is why the Alpine headers were built the way they are. They are also built in a way that they have minimal leverage on the header tubes from the weight of the turbo, and only shear force on the bolts( which is not an issue). The big automotive header builders have huge R&D budgets unlike small independant sled turbo manufactures that unfortunately have to use the customers for R&D.
We could debate this for hours...but your quote made it sound like you knew something no one else did.
I have to run and work on the Impulse Nytro in my shop! It's having some problems. lol. I have an Alpine Nytro here that is also having problems.
Cheers
NM
IMPULSE TURBO
NM where is your shop, i'm in Edmonton. I have a Impulse Standalone Nytro. No header issues. Would like to bring sled to your shop so you can get a better look and feel [ hands on ] this sled. Only tools needed - duct tape , velcro or maybe handcuffs to make sure you stay on the sled.
NM where is your shop, i'm in Edmonton. I have a Impulse Standalone Nytro. No header issues. Would like to bring sled to your shop so you can get a better look and feel [ hands on ] this sled. Only tools needed - duct tape , velcro or maybe handcuffs to make sure you stay on the sled.
B
BigFish BC
Well-known member
Oh ok Zeb. I was a little thrown off by "Shorter Impulse headers are not more prone to crack than Alpine headers". That kinda sounds like a factual quote and not speculation like you are now saying.
We have tested some shorter headers that were very similar to the Impulse headers, and found because they can not expand enough and flex enough...they break. These were headers built by the same guy that builds the Alpine Nytro and Apex headers, and were heat treated and coated the same as the others.
In discussions with the header builder, he had told me that when he set out top build the Nytro header that he talked to two of the top automotive header builders in the world. These guys test hundreds of headers and know what works. They do not just have theories like you suggest, but they actually test and test again until they are satisfied there product is the best it can be. Both of the engineers that he talked to were adament that the header runners were no shorter than 10.75 inches and if they were shorter they would lose efficiency and would be more prone to failure. That is why the Alpine headers were built the way they are. They are also built in a way that they have minimal leverage on the header tubes from the weight of the turbo, and only shear force on the bolts( which is not an issue). The big automotive header builders have huge R&D budgets unlike small independant sled turbo manufactures that unfortunately have to use the customers for R&D.
We could debate this for hours...but your quote made it sound like you knew something no one else did.
I have to run and work on the Impulse Nytro in my shop! It's having some problems. lol. I have an Alpine Nytro here that is also having problems.
Cheers
NM
I come back to my original thought, what are all these header builders using for material and what is the application? I don't know but I'm willing to bet its either 304 or ideally 321 16G. The cast headers aka Ulmer or whatever they are now have a pretty good rep or so it seems mostly because a cast unit has the meat, so again JMO it stands to reason that if you use a beefier material like Impulse then one would think that it should last better. Again IMO you can't compare a 16g header (which when you put the caliper on it is pretty thin piece <0.65") to a cast unit because the cast unit will be inherently inefficient but last forever because of its mass like a turbo diesel truck manifold which we are all driving. Why aren't they always cracking? Cause they are over engineered not to by being large enough to take the heat. If you go to the Burns stainless site they have some pretty good info on building turbo headers etc but they don't ever say this is for your daily driver. They sell 321 SS 16G stuff mostly for race apps. The Impulse setup gives you a pretty decent compromise with good flow and durability/beef also in 321 which is the only real option aside from Inconel. There's good weight and bad weight on a sled especially a Yami. Reverse is good weight and so is a beefy header. JMO. I know what I would do.
M5
Oh ok Zeb. I was a little thrown off by "Shorter Impulse headers are not more prone to crack than Alpine headers". That kinda sounds like a factual quote and not speculation like you are now saying.
We have tested some shorter headers that were very similar to the Impulse headers, and found because they can not expand enough and flex enough...they break. These were headers built by the same guy that builds the Alpine Nytro and Apex headers, and were heat treated and coated the same as the others.
In discussions with the header builder, he had told me that when he set out top build the Nytro header that he talked to two of the top automotive header builders in the world. These guys test hundreds of headers and know what works. They do not just have theories like you suggest, but they actually test and test again until they are satisfied there product is the best it can be. Both of the engineers that he talked to were adament that the header runners were no shorter than 10.75 inches and if they were shorter they would lose efficiency and would be more prone to failure. That is why the Alpine headers were built the way they are. They are also built in a way that they have minimal leverage on the header tubes from the weight of the turbo, and only shear force on the bolts( which is not an issue). The big automotive header builders have huge R&D budgets unlike small independant sled turbo manufactures that unfortunately have to use the customers for R&D.
We could debate this for hours...but your quote made it sound like you knew something no one else did.
I have to run and work on the Impulse Nytro in my shop! It's having some problems. lol. I have an Alpine Nytro here that is also having problems.
Cheers
NM
Well now that you finally say that you are talking about R&D that you or Alpine did, that is a different story
. What ever you guys did was a different design, different material, welding, ect, then a Impulse header. Just because you guys didn't have luck with short headers doesn't mean others can if they are designed properly and built with the right material. I just don't want people to think that because the Impulse header is shorter then the Alpine it is more prone to failure. Because in real world testing, like I told you, the 15-20 Impulse sleds I've personally been around in the last 3 years haven't had any header failures. Yes, I know that there have been header failures from other Impulse sleds. But there have been failures with Alpine as well. Real world testing results overules opinions.
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