850 patriot will not rev past 8100

[indydan]

I must first say, deflection does nothing beyond belt engagement. All the little bolt does, is control how close the secondary sheaves come together when the sled is stopped (or primary is fully open[disengaged]).

Sorry, you are dead wrong here......

If the clutches start out in a bad ratio ( To high of gear because the belt is low in the driven , then the belt is not deep in the drive clutch and the sled is lazy off the line and most likely rpm is a little low )

Until you let off the throttle and let the driven back shift the belt into a higher part in the driven in relation to the drive belt location compared to where it started from a dead stop.

Dan

 

[summ8rmk]

Sorry, you are dead wrong here......

If the clutches start out in a bad ratio ( To high of gear because the belt is low in the driven , then the belt is not deep in the drive clutch and the sled is lazy off the line and most likely rpm is a little low )

Until you let off the throttle and let the driven back shift the belt into a higher part in the driven in relation to the drive belt location compared to where it started from a dead stop.

Dan

This is a valid statement for drag racing, where u hammer the throttle from a dead stop and only let off at the end of the race.
To make a noticeable difference, the deflection will have to be off quite a bit.


That scenario would very rarely ever happen in the mountains.

Throttle chop is a necessity.

Take off, let off for 1/4 second and the belt ratio should be ideal, correct with ur statement?

Mountain riding, ur thumb almost moves as fast as the pistons.... (not literaly....lol)

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[Sheetmetalfab]

This is a valid statement for drag racing, where u hammer the throttle from a dead stop and only let off at the end of the race.
To make a noticeable difference, the deflection will have to be off quite a bit.


That scenario would very rarely ever happen in the mountains.

Throttle chop is a necessity.

Take off, let off for 1/4 second and the belt ratio should be ideal, correct with ur statement?

Mountain riding, ur thumb almost moves as fast as the pistons.... (not literaly....lol)

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Um actually deflection makes a huge difference as you vary throttle.

If it’s not tight the center to center distance is effectively different for your clutches.

This makes your calibration (clutching) off.

When your deflection is loose the torque sensing nature of a properly tuned cvt system is basically “a gear too high” all the time.

Slippage.
Heat.
Belt glazing.

It becomes a downward spiral for belt life, performance and clutch wear.

All “sparked” by loose deflection.

 

[indydan]

Um actually deflection makes a huge difference as you vary throttle.

If it’s not tight the center to center distance is effectively different for your clutches.

This makes your calibration (clutching) off.

When your deflection is loose the torque sensing nature of a properly tuned cvt system is basically “a gear too high” all the time.

Slippage.
Heat.
Belt glazing.

It becomes a downward spiral for belt life, performance and clutch wear.

All “sparked” by loose deflection.

spot on description

Dan

 

[summ8rmk]

spot on description

Dan

I respect you, sheetmetalfab, and TRS . U all are smart, i buy ur clutch parts and help sell them to fellow riders with the performance of my sleds.

But i disagree 100% about the secondary adjustment bolt (or shims) affecting the clutch performance after engagement and especially after varying the throttle.


I am going to exaggerate a bit to make a point.

If that were the case, if u trail rode ur sled then tried to ride off trail, the performance would suffer due to being stuck in trail performance mode...

Same as off trail riding then transfer on to the trail and ur sled would be stuck at 45mph.... stuck in hill climb mode...

That is not a reality....

I would like to have a gentlemans discussion.

How can u say, if u take off with a loose belt that it will be stuck with a loose belt.

Its a cvt, it will adjust to the load. The clutch center - center are relatively fixed, the belt has a fixed circumference.

8,000 rpm could be 25mph or 85 mph, the belt will be in different heights in the clutchs at the same rpm all due to load.


Please respond with ur evidence of why i am wrong and we can all maintain civility.




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[Sheetmetalfab]

I respect you, sheetmetalfab, and TRS . U all are smart, i buy ur clutch parts and help sell them to fellow riders with the performance of my sleds.

But i disagree 100% about the secondary adjustment bolt (or shims) affecting the clutch performance after engagement and especially after varying the throttle.


I am going to exaggerate a bit to make a point.

If that were the case, if u trail rode ur sled then tried to ride off trail, the performance would suffer due to being stuck in trail performance mode...

Same as off trail riding then transfer on to the trail and ur sled would be stuck at 45mph.... stuck in hill climb mode...

That is not a reality....

I would like to have a gentlemans discussion.

How can u say, if u take off with a loose belt that it will be stuck with a loose belt.

Its a cvt, it will adjust to the load. The clutch center - center are relatively fixed, the belt has a fixed circumference.

8,000 rpm could be 25mph or 85 mph, the belt will be in different heights in the clutchs at the same rpm all due to load.


Please respond with ur evidence of why i am wrong and we can all maintain civility.




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The secondary clutch is reacting like it’s in first gear.

The primary clutch is in 2nd gear.

Really that simple.

Even with a straight cut helix (which is more forgiving)

spring tensions at different compressed heights are still real.

Proper Calibration is for when:
1st= 1st in the two clutches
2nd = 2nd
3rd = 3rd
Etc.

The calibration can be thought of as “a set sensitivity and capacity for torque sensing”

Going outside of that calibration (via uneven force primary to secondary) introduces inefficiency to the system.

Slippage and Heat buildup in the primary (loose) results.

That glazes the belt and the system loses more efficiency.

The “torque sensing capacity” overpowers the engine and it can no longer maintain optimum engine RPM for power.

Low on power?
Calibration is set for rated power…..
Performance suffers.

 

[Sheetmetalfab]

Oh.
Thanks for making me type / think through all that. It really helps clarify my thoughts.

Clutching calibration being off even slightly severely punishes performance. (Partly due to the 2 stroke power curve)

Even more so when hammering the sled on back to back climbs repeatedly, full load, variable snow over and over and over.

I’ve noticed the axys 800 and 850 are more susceptible to deflection induced performance loss than the older sleds. (Especially running Polaris 183 and 216 belts)

Literally take the rental matryx 850 i rode twice recently and ride around hitting some small climbs.
loosen the deflection max rpm 7650 (super hot primary clutch and belt)
Tighten it 8200 (that’s about 12-14 hp gain and cool clutch and belt)

This thread needed pics.

 

[summ8rmk]

The secondary clutch is reacting like it’s in first gear.

The primary clutch is in 2nd gear.

My first argument: The belt is still the same length. when the primary clutch engages on a loose belt "second gear" it is impossible for the secondary to be in " first gear" as the secondary has to be open and the belt lower in the sheaves to make the belt loose. Absolutely horrible for take off and hard on belts but both clutches would effectively be in "second gear".

Really that simple.

Even with a straight cut helix (which is more forgiving)

spring tensions at different compressed heights are still real.

Proper Calibration is for when:
1st= 1st in the two clutches
2nd = 2nd
3rd = 3rd
Etc.

The calibration can be thought of as “a set sensitivity and capacity for torque sensing”

Going outside of that calibration (via uneven force primary to secondary) introduces inefficiency to the system.

Second argument: i can see the clutches taking off in "second gear" affecting overall performance in a drag race where the throttle is held open from take off till the end of the race however, as soon as u let off the throttle the clutches will recalibrate for the respective speed and load. Will not be affected by the secondaries closed status as it does not close while the sled is in motion.

Heat buildup in the primary (loose) or secondary (too tight) results.

That glazes the belt and the system loses more efficiency.

The “torque sensing capacity” overpowers the engine and it can no longer maintain optimum engine RPM for power.

Low on power?
Calibration is set for rated power…..
Performance suffers.

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[summ8rmk]

Oh.
Thanks for making me type / think through all that. It really helps clarify my thoughts.

Clutching calibration being off even slightly severely punishes performance. (Partly due to the 2 stroke power curve)

Even more so when hammering the sled on back to back climbs repeatedly, full load, variable snow over and over and over.

I’ve noticed the axys 800 and 850 are more susceptible to deflection induced performance loss than the older sleds. (Especially running Polaris 183 and 216 belts)

Literally take the rental matryx 850 i rode twice recently and ride around hitting some small climbs.
loosen the deflection max rpm 7650 (super hot primary clutch and belt)
Tighten it 8200 (that’s about 12-14 hp gain and cool clutch and belt)

This thread needed pics.
View attachment 380641View attachment 380642View attachment 380643

I'm gonna piss off my riding buddies now. Lol (stopping to mess with my clutches for an hr)

I will go out and do the same testing on my Khaos, hopefully this weekend.

I will go to each extreme on my secondary and record the results... if i can find a way to make the Alpha belt loose, i will also test that sleds performance. Not the same day obviously...[emoji846]

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[Sheetmetalfab]

I'm gonna piss off my riding buddies now. Lol (stopping to mess with my clutches for an hr)

I will go out and do the same testing on my Khaos, hopefully this weekend.

I will go to each extreme on my secondary and record the results... if i can find a way to make the Alpha belt loose, i will also test that sleds performance. Not the same day obviously...[emoji846]

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Alpha has the bearing in the primary so tight belt. (They work great)

 

[Sheetmetalfab]

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Centrifugal forces exerted clamping the belt by the flyweight at a given position in the primary clutch travel: Is calibrated to match a certain resistance (spring and helix angle) in the secondary.

When those points on the two graphs are offset by the belt being “effectively” longer while the center to center of the clutches has NOT changed………..

Performance suffers.

Every single “clutching guru” I’ve ever had discussions with or read books from all stressed the importance of belt deflection.
Dynamo Joe (skidoo)

Indydan (polaris)
Roosterbuilt (skidoo)
TRS (polaris)
Olav Aaen (old school)

I’ve seen and felt the proof in the pudding.

Hopefully you find some great snow and test it like crazy. ?

Think of this:
Why does your performance suffer when a belt is worn out? (But not glazed)

The narrow belt mimics loose deflection…….

Or loose belt deflection mimics worn out belt?

 

[Reg2view]

Every race school, race manual, and former racer who now sells clutch kits have had this covered for decades. The earth isn't flat. Joe's doc (at least 15 years old) covers the details. FWIW.

 

[summ8rmk]

Bear with me, I have difficulty trying to explain myself. I am not attacking anyone.

It will be hard for people to close their minds, open their ears and eyes to read and listen to what i am saying before forming an opinion or assume i am a flat earther.


I think i have discovered the reason for our differences of opinion.

Its the word deflection and its use.

We are on the same page 95-99% agreement.

Everyone has confused clutch gurus definition of proper belt deflection cause and effect (which they are 100% correct) with shimming the secondary as the root of proper deflection.... two completely worlds here and that is hard for people to disseminate.


Sheetmetalfab, ur picture post explains everything well.

Deflection is directly reliant on clutch diameter, width (open and close) and center to center.

The proper width x length x height belt must be used for proper deflection.

A loose secondary only effects the engagement of the clutches to belt. The width x length x height remains the same after engagement.


A different size belt (aka worn) will effect the clutches throughout the entire range cannot be associated to a proper belt that starts loose and immediately tightened once engaged.

People use deflection for two similar yet separate definitions.

Adjusting the secondary to create the proper belt tension for the best belt life and low gear engagement is absolutely not the same as proper deflection from different belts.

The secondaries deflection adjustment bolt's purpose is to make sure the sled takes off in "1st gear" it will not affect 2nd gear 3rd gear etc. or overdrive.



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[minus40]

Just for fun
a drag race scenario showing the effect of proper belt deflection. Only thing changed was defection

 

[Sheetmetalfab]

Bear with me, I have difficulty trying to explain myself. I am not attacking anyone.

It will be hard for people to close their minds, open their ears and eyes to read and listen to what i am saying before forming an opinion or assume i am a flat earther.


I think i have discovered the reason for our differences of opinion.

Its the word deflection and its use.

We are on the same page 95-99% agreement.

Everyone has confused clutch gurus definition of proper belt deflection cause and effect (which they are 100% correct) with shimming the secondary as the root of proper deflection.... two completely worlds here and that is hard for people to disseminate.


Sheetmetalfab, ur picture post explains everything well.

Deflection is directly reliant on clutch diameter, width (open and close) and center to center.

The proper width x length x height belt must be used for proper deflection.

A loose secondary only effects the engagement of the clutches to belt. The width x length x height remains the same after engagement.


A different size belt (aka worn) will effect the clutches throughout the entire range cannot be associated to a proper belt that starts loose and immediately tightened once engaged.

People use deflection for two similar yet separate definitions.

Adjusting the secondary to create the proper belt tension for the best belt life and low gear engagement is absolutely not the same as proper deflection from different belts.

The secondaries deflection adjustment bolt's purpose is to make sure the sled takes off in "1st gear" it will not affect 2nd gear 3rd gear etc. or overdrive.



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Basically in the real world……

Loose deflection creates poor performance in all rpm ranges.

Whether that’s all from the initial engagement glazing the belt is irrelevant in the field.

Performance WILL be poor.
Belt life WILL be poor.
Clutch temps WILL be high.

This isn’t something that’s only been tested once. ?

It does negatively affect “2nd”, “3rd” and “4th” gear.
Even if the reason it does isn’t precisely happening while it’s in that “gear”

Glazing EFF’s performance.
Heat EFF’s performance.

The flat earth comment might have been extreme but not completely unwarranted.

Remember your comment about “hear me out”?

 

[summ8rmk]

View attachment 380717

Just for fun
a drag race scenario showing the effect of proper belt deflection. Only thing changed was defection

Which was first?
How many times have u tested and had the same result?
Was the test repeated opposite of the first test?

I agree a loose belt will affect the performance in a drag race.

Let off the throttle and let the clutches back shift. Then accelerate again.
Are the results tested and recorded?

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[summ8rmk]

Basically in the real world……

Loose deflection creates poor performance in all rpm ranges.

Whether that’s all from the initial engagement glazing the belt is irrelevant in the field.

Performance WILL be poor.
Belt life WILL be poor.
Clutch temps WILL be high.

This isn’t something that’s only been tested once. [emoji16]

It does negatively affect “2nd”, “3rd” and “4th” gear.
Even if the reason it does isn’t precisely happening while it’s in that “gear”

Glazing EFF’s performance.
Heat EFF’s performance.

The flat earth comment might have been extreme but not completely unwarranted.

Remember your comment about “hear me out”?

Thanks for the dialog.

Now im gonna get hate. Anyone that honestly believes the earth is flat, needs a real honest mental evaluation. People that are quick to name call are usually ignorant to the subject at hand yet still want to be part of the conversation ... if ur not being attacked, why get emotional and 'attack' (name calling or belittling) other's? I'll never understand that....

My 'hear me out comment' i feel is a statement that is needed to get people to read everything before they throw out a response.

Generally, people form an opinion with the first sentence, then reply with knowledge, not from their own experience rather with what they hear or see from their peers.

Most people will believe what their trusted peers or idols tell them, whether its right or wrong, then share that information without the ability to explain the details, Generally due to the lack of understanding, also their firm belief in their peers.


My god, look at the U.S. government and social media in general, the crap they spew to the public, so many people believe it and repeat the lies as truth. Not because they wish harm but because they believe the government or their 'celebrities ' and now the majority of the people they talk too believe it too...

I recognize that, not everyone has a deep understanding of mechanics and physics. I want people to open their minds and think for themselves, not just repeat what they heard.
Do the science, understand the physics/mechanics, test and record.

Theories, are just that.... Theories, they need to be tested and proven, disproven, or improved.

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[TRS]

Let’s say for all practical purposes the ratio stays the same, primary and secondary. The issue is where your flyweight is positioned at that given ratio, With a tighter belt deflection and/or belt to sheave measurement you get more clamping force/shift from the fly weight through its position below full shift. Once the weight gets to its neutral full shift position in the primary it’s over. If the belt is worn (belt to sheave is wide=same affect) and the primary can only get to 5/8 shift before the weight hits neutral you are done. That scenario also loads the engine, that clarifies the start in second gear.
With the amount of heavy tip weights out there today, they help you win at the neutral full shift game.

 

[summ8rmk]

Let’s say for all practical purposes the ratio stays the same, primary and secondary. The issue is where your flyweight is positioned at that given ratio, With a tighter belt deflection and/or belt to sheave measurement you get more clamping force/shift from the fly weight through its position below full shift. Once the weight gets to its neutral full shift position in the primary it’s over. If the belt is worn (belt to sheave is wide=same affect) and the primary can only get to 5/8 shift before the weight hits neutral you are done. That scenario also loads the engine, that clarifies the start in second gear.
With the amount of heavy tip weights out there today, they help you win at the neutral full shift game.

Tony,
Thank you for taking time to comment.
I know, u know and understand clutching with the best of them.
Ur clutch kit paired with Indydan's heavy (solid) cover is the best clutching i have ever ran on a Polaris and my buddies will agree to that.

Maybe u can explain to me?
This example is with running the perfect belt for the clutches.

why can a CVT handle the extreme load change from climbing 5ft of snow up a 40° slope and cruising down the road at 70mph, yet it can't overcome starting "in second gear" because the secondary didn't close all the way?

With the perfect belt at full shift, let off the throttle and the sled back shifts, hit the throttle and the belt should find the ideal height in the clutches for the load?

How is the the load affected in that situation by the secondary not closing all the way if, it never back shifts(track doesn't stop)far enough for the belt to be lose.

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[minus40]

Which was first?
How many times have u tested and had the same result?
Was the test repeated opposite of the first test?

I agree a loose belt will affect the performance in a drag race.

Let off the throttle and let the clutches back shift. Then accelerate again.
Are the results tested and recorded?

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That was done in 2005 but I don't need to remember small details to try and answer a couple.
the loose belt was ran first
I don't bother to test misadjusted belts
However someday I may bother to get some data on a throttle chop/ acceleration run with deflection adjustment
just so I have another graph to post in the belt deflection discussions that pop up. I really should get some oil data so I
can rack up my post counts. Those oil threads can get vicious though so maybe not.

I was helping a novice friend that was unhappy with his clutch kit in his short track. Ran the sled to get a base then opened
the hood to have a look. An easy adjustment and voila ..... massive gains. So belt deflection was never an intended test.