850 gone down already??

[Lobstah guy]

If my 850 starts to blow or even acts like it. Im not shutting it off to bring it in for a halfassed rebuild. Im gonna run it till it blows hard, throws something out the side, or seizes.
If they do turn out to be garbage ill take an alll new garbage one for now untill my warranty is done.
My reason for purchasing the 850 was the new electrical system. So far ive got 2 hours on mine. Its pig rich but has started every time ive wanted it to. Well see what happens.

 

[JJ_0909]

Haha ! We just all looked at each other and said WOW !!

That’s gotta come apart and get fixed....

The big problem with this is this....


...


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[/QUOTE]

Was that some sort of haiku or do you just really like paragraphs?

In all seriousness thanks for chiming in with your thoughts on the motor/finish. I hope you are wrong! Time will tell.

 

[Murph]

It's seems so strange that this would happen..... Polairs was really starting to show progress on the 800 cylinder finish....

Not all of them.... but a really good percentage were pretty good.


Dan

Dan,

Have you seen a 2019 800 cylinder to see if their honing process went backwards compared to the progress you were previously seeing on the 800 cylinders?

Have you looked at crank/ crankcase assembly/ production on your 850?

 

[Madtown]

Am I correct in saying the motor plant for these Patriot 850's is new? Plant is in Osseo,WI. I also thought they are running far behind hence the reason for delay in delivering 850 sleds. I was on the fence about getting a 850 as really liked the improvements in electrical/front end but glad I waited.

 

[WAsledder]

On Saturday an 850(60 miles on it) in our group seized. Luckily it was only a mile from the road. It's getting dropped off at the dealer today...I told him to take pics so I'll post them when he gets them.

 

[POLZIN]

A first year Polaris engine larger than 800cc Is asking for trouble. Don't worry though after all the warranties are up Polaris will offer a suspiciously reasonably priced update kit ( see 900 Crank update)

 

[no_uh]

This is a big revelation if it is true across the board, or even if it affects more than a handful (like other manufacturing defects which seem to be in play with the few downed 850s we've heard about). However, I'm going to remain pretty confident about this until we hear that it is a problem with more than one motor.

 

[snowmobiler]

maybe indy got the only rejected clys.LOL

 

[Teth-Air]

We unloaded our our new 174" - 850 and pulled the head to check the bench volume..... Found the cylinder finish to be as bad as the 2008 Dragon motor.

Also looked like the early 800 Ski Doo's that were eating ring faces.

We built a cylinder base torque plate, & Head torque plate and measured it up and put it in the power stroke for about 20 minutes with our finest super abrasive shoes.... And then plateau polished it with 2 finishing shoes.

Total time in the hone 40 plus minutes plus set-up. ( took out between .0003 to .0004 tenths )

Whatever 850's have the finish this one had won't make it thru the first season.

It's funny the cut away motor at the Polaris show had a cylinder finish like a mirror just the way Silcon Carbide cylinder have to be for long piston & ring life.

I'll try and post the before and after pics of the difference.

On our stock cylinder you can feel the cross hatch deep grooves with your thumb nail. ( this is a death sentence to a ring and piston )


After enough miles the Pistons will look like the oil pump stopped. ( the intake skirt will look like it was dragged down a gravel road. )

Silicon carbide should not have deep cross hatch like a cast iron bore. ( even cast iron should be plateau honed )

The silicon carbide process is so porous you have to plateau polish off the sharp peaks as much as possible .

Honing is a process required ( on a cast iron bore to remove threading from the boring process..... ( and to create an ( X ) cross pattern to #1 cut in the rings #2 hold oil. ( cast iron bores are very soft )

In a silicon carbide ( there is no threading ) from plating...... The silicon carbide
Is electronically applied..... ( very thin to under size it )

And it's harder then a honeymoon hard-on..... The hone is needed to then cut ( with ( DIAMOND ) impregnated super abrasive stones.

I said ( only needed to cut to size ) not to created cross hatch.... Cross hatch is a by product of sizing...... ( it's actually a bad thing ) on plated cylinders.

On silicon plated cylinders the cross hatch needs to be polish away as much as possible. ( from what I have found ) it's almost impossible to over polish and it is next to impossible to remove all the cross hatch.

Once you get that fine of polishing shoe the plateau gets long and smooth and it will no long remove anything it just creates heat.

You seem to hit a wall at about .0005 tenths.

Dan

I wish you were wrong for once and these motors turn out to be stupendous.

 

[sno*jet]

A first year Polaris engine larger than 700cc Is asking for trouble.

fixed.

 

[indydan]

Cylinder finish hone process

Ok, here is a picture of a new 850 we just drove in the shop ZERO miles

And 4 pictures of 800 small block cylinder cylinder we just honed for comparison.

They both looked about exactly the same before honing....

The reason the 850 looks almost white is the fracturing ( or tearing ) of the silicon carbide material from an aggressive ( sizing ) or cutting shone.

After the HG7 finishing process the cylinder surface ( That takes on a deep bronze mirror like finish ) ... this color is a by product of flat long plateau finsh
the piston ring & piston glide over without wearing the piston and rings.

Notice the dark black residue at the top of the 850 cylinder....... That is piston graffle coating being scraped off by the aggressive cross hatch.

Murph.....I have not seen a 2019 800 cylinder yet. ( i don't want to ge into a bottom-end thing right now )

Dan

 

[jptbay]

Am I remembering wrong that the 850 piston ring material is different this year - iron??

Could this explain the cylinder finish?

Necessary to seat new ring?

 

[indydan]

New 850 Pistons

Here is what the graffle coating looks like from the trailer to the shop on our new 174 850

under 100 feet.

The missing coating is what you see on the cylinder push up towards the top
by the ring.

Dan

 

[willjogervais]

We unloaded our our new 174" - 850 and pulled the head to check the bench volume..... Found the cylinder finish to be as bad as the 2008 Dragon motor.

Also looked like the early 800 Ski Doo's that were eating ring faces.

We built a cylinder base torque plate, & Head torque plate and measured it up and put it in the power stroke for about 20 minutes with our finest super abrasive shoes.... And then plateau polished it with 2 finishing shoes.

Total time in the hone 40 plus minutes plus set-up. ( took out between .0003 to .0004 tenths )

Whatever 850's have the finish this one had won't make it thru the first season.

It's funny the cut away motor at the Polaris show had a cylinder finish like a mirror just the way Silcon Carbide cylinder have to be for long piston & ring life.

I'll try and post the before and after pics of the difference.

On our stock cylinder you can feel the cross hatch deep grooves with your thumb nail. ( this is a death sentence to a ring and piston )


After enough miles the Pistons will look like the oil pump stopped. ( the intake skirt will look like it was dragged down a gravel road. )

Silicon carbide should not have deep cross hatch like a cast iron bore. ( even cast iron should be plateau honed )

The silicon carbide process is so porous you have to plateau polish off the sharp peaks as much as possible .

Honing is a process required ( on a cast iron bore to remove threading from the boring process..... ( and to create an ( X ) cross pattern to #1 cut in the rings #2 hold oil. ( cast iron bores are very soft )

In a silicon carbide ( there is no threading ) from plating...... The silicon carbide
Is electronically applied..... ( very thin to under size it )

And it's harder then a honeymoon hard-on..... The hone is needed to then cut ( with ( DIAMOND ) impregnated super abrasive stones.

I said ( only needed to cut to size ) not to created cross hatch.... Cross hatch is a by product of sizing...... ( it's actually a bad thing ) on plated cylinders.

On silicon plated cylinders the cross hatch needs to be polish away as much as possible. ( from what I have found ) it's almost impossible to over polish and it is next to impossible to remove all the cross hatch.

Once you get that fine of polishing shoe the plateau gets long and smooth and it will no long remove anything it just creates heat.

You seem to hit a wall at about .0005 tenths.

Dan

I admit, as an 850 owner, I want to believe good things about it. I kinda skimmed over the cpl statements about possible blown motors without giving much detail or if they sounded sketchy. Although this wasn't a blown motor (yet), this one has me concerned. Hopefully this is an isolated case, because reading it makes me not so ready to strap on my turbo and throw away my 4 year warranty.... But on the other hand, I did just that with the new 16' 800 too and had 0 issues before moving on to this.
All this worry and I have yet to even take it up a mountain...
Christopher, can you go pick up your new trailer so I have something else besides these threads to occupy my time on here?

 

[willjogervais]

Here is what the graffle coating looks like from the trailer to the shop on our new 174 850

under 100 feet.

The missing coating is what you see on the cylinder push up towards the top
by the ring.

Dan

Holy !

 

[SEVS11]

Wow......this is disappointing!!! I am coming from a G4 that had its concerns but at least the engine was good. I am deeply regretting this purchase and I haven't even ridden the damn thing yet

 

[indydan]

Breakin proceedure on the 850

People...... do not be fooled by smoke & mirrors from the OEM's

Trust me here.......when i first saw some of by own recalled Long Rod motors back in 2013 & 14 I literally just about chit myself.

I knew in about 5 seconds i was about to be financial destroyed when i saw the first set of ( then ProX ) pistons that only been started and not driven yet.... I was in deep trouble. ( coating gone )

Then i saw the first set of Polaris OEM's i had used in my motors.... they were much better but i still knew i was in deep trouble.

The polaris cylinder finsih back then was lights out better then where i was at. ( The Japanese Fuji's from the 1996 days were better then both. )

And used Polaris pistons 2 years old looked better then the ones from my motors ( the only difference was cylinder finishing. )

I paniced..........( changed by break if proceedure ) trying to get the public to slow down and give me time to recall them...... not a chance people with mountain sleds are going to hammer them from day one.

My Motors can be pound wide open on day one ( Warmed up good & Hammer them ) they can take it.

No cautionary break in proceddure with save a incorrectly honed silicon carbide cylinder...... it will never stop eating pistons until its plateau honed.

I have been there done that........Its carbide, rings are cast... pistons Aluminum... Who wins ??? The cylinder wins everytime.

I went on a rampage to to figure out a way to get my cylinders as good as the Polaris OEM's

After countless attemps things started to come around.

October 15th 2015 the first HG3 finsh was brough out and started testing.

It was better by a mile then where i was.

Then HG5.... much better.

Then HG7, this is 4 finishing processes past the HG3.

I finally had to have all custom super abrasives shoes made along with polishing shoes.

The reason there is no HG4 or HG6 is because we kept getting it better faster
then we could get the finishes tested.

Dan

 

[indydan]

Honing.

Dan,

Is this essentially the HG7 finish or is this a new process?

Did you split the cases to look at the crank assembly/ construction/ production?

Yes Murph, its the HG7 Finishing process.

 

[AndrettiDog]

IndyDan - What can we do to improve the reliability of our 850's? Is there an easy check (such as pulling head, etc) that us half mechanics can do to monitor this moving forward?

 

[TRS]

Haha ! We just all looked at each other and said WOW !!

That’s gotta come apart and get fixed....

The big problem with this is this....

I have a $25,000 Power stroke hone with the most advanced
Finishing process for Silicon Carbide ( Nicasil )cylinders, Sorry same thing different title....

We are buried this time and do not have the man power to just Re-hone Polaris cylinders..... our hone is busy doing the motors we sell.

It runs most often 2 to 6 hours per day for next 3 months.

We need another hone.... ( the new automatic sizing hones start
At $60,000 Base priced with out tooling )

Delivered & tooled up the basic unit will be $80,000

And I wouldn’t want that one.... the one to buy is $130,000
Base for full auto ( delivered with tax & tooling $150,000 )

Then I would have to hire a guy to run it.... ( then he needs to be trained)

I hired a new guy last spring and have been training for the last 4 months how
To hone with accuracy & precision.

Honing these ( Nicasil ) silicon carbide cylinders is no game.

And it can not be done with a drill in a parts washer. ( with a budget $400 snap-on Anco hone )

The hone we have us just barely adaqute to service
Our own in House work ( and then throw in our honing customers ) we can just barely keep up with seven guys.

So if anyone thinks for one second we are looking for work
You are on crack.

Not only do I hate honing, I hate the money required to maintain
Equipment & staff to do it correctly.

The process for the old 800 & the 850 is the same...

But you have to stick to the same machines, same guys, same procedure
The 800 had towards the end. ( polaris is a * lowest bidder company * because of the stock market )

Honing is about consistency..... not lowest bidder. You gotta stick with the same guys and machines that work.

Short cutting honing on a cylinder as hard as silicon Plating will eat you alive in warranty.

Plus the tooling... ( has to be broke in ) in other words the super abrasive shoes
Have to be honed for hours and hours in Just cylinders to get them edge prepped ( and round to fit the bore ). And then those stones can only be used in that exact bore size.... ( because the radius on the face has been formed )

My business was almost destroyed by poor cylinder finish pre- October 15th 2015..... because the cylinders Coming from the plating companies
Was destroying the piston & rings.

Giving away well around 200 cylinders & 400 plus OEM piston kits will force you to find the problem..... or you will be gone.

At this moment in time... no one I have ever seen can put a final finish on a Nicasil cylinder like Indy Specialty can.

Not bragging.... it’s just a by product of what comes from a 3 year warranty.

If you are going offer a 3 year motor warranty you better make sure
The motor can make it well past that.

And that’s 3 years plus with guys who live in the mountains and ride 5 days a week all winter. Not just 2, or 3 trips per year.

The finish on the 850 is going to be a death sentence to a 4 year warranty ( yes there will be motors that won’t go down..... either the cylinder was better then the ones I have seen.... or they don’t don’t ride but a few times per year ).

You will be able tell trouble is coming..... when you can’t beat a Snall block
800 and your struggling to pull clutch weight past what the 800 runs...... you can bet the cylinder finish has already eaten your pistons

And the end is near.

I am to old to fear monger..... ( it’s in writing on a public forum)

Sit back and watch..... if its a good snow year it’s going to
Be a train wreck for 850 pistons

And ( NO ) there is not going to be an aftermarket piston that’s better then The OEM...... there never has been and never will be.

The OE BUDGET is far past the aftermarket.

It’s a cylinder finish problem when they eat pistons.

All plated cylinders we get are undersized.... then we torque plate everything.

Dan




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[/QUOTE]

Thanks Dan. You said the 850 was going to be trouble.

My 2018 was on its 4th engine when I put it away last spring. Sounds like a six pack of 850 long blocks coming my way for ‘19?.

I may have to add another manufacturer to the stable to get through the winter.