2009 M5 stump-ed

[FurtherOn]

This last summer I purchased this dead sled, owner said it hadn't been run in 6 years. 192hrs on the engine, and just shy of 5000km. Looked it over and it was nothing short of a minor disaster. The right ski was worn clean thru the wearbar/ski and the spindle was being pushed along the ground. Both skis were in this shape, hadn't looked like the wear bars had been ever changed. The whole front suspension assembly was eventually replaced as bonking it along the ground rotated the spindles and wrecked the control arms. One shock was bent. Replaced with 2nd hand fox floats. The nose of the sled was smashed to ****, and was covered up by a skid-plate. Replaced it. The original track looked ripped to shreds. hi-fax was right down to the line and a bent wheel. Replaced those. Kept the 141 and the 1.5inch lug. Figured it suitable for power of the sled. The hood was held together by zip-ties from a wreck, and the handlebars had been changed out to a pro-taper set (came from a motorcycle), no warmers. Replaced the hood and the bars back to stock. Someone had washed the headlights with acetone and the engine bay was full of pine needles. The rear grab bar was missing entirely, (replaced it with a straight bar) along with a suitable snow-flap. No windshield came with it, All the decals had been stripped off of it and the seat was missing presumed dead.

No stranger to fixing things up. Haddn't worked on sleds in 15 years and recovering from a near fatal traffic accident left me with some time on my hands. Not a special sled, though I kind of like the early M-series sleds, and knowing that bigger power is a drop in over summer project. (600 - 800) Took it home and began the slow methodical process of finding parts, checking and replacing what was either out of spec, after learning how to get specs and most things faulty or just trashed got replaced.

I've been thru this sled, front to back. I have a full 2009 repair manual, parts manual and owners manual. I have full tools as I was a HD mechanic for 10 years previous. Sourced MOST my parts from ebay (2nd hand stuff) but they were certified AC parts just at diecent prices and I have 'almost' returned it to her former glory.

All sensors/generators within ohm/voltage spec. Strong water pump, and clutching is presumed good. No problems with the Diamond drive, reverse works fine, oil came out clear.

I have an interesting presumed ECU-CCU-and or Electrical related problem. Before people start referencing the manual. I have put hundreds of hours into repairing this sled, in and out the manual lots. I have been over countless web-pages and sites looking for ANY information that could lead me to sorting out what the *&^% is wrong with this engine. Nothing on this ride has been rushed, no corners cut. I'm not the type to throw money at a problem unless its been ruled out. I tried my best to return the C5 to STOCK, PLUS improvements. I have schematics for the electrical system and I have gone thru the harness myself, as well as checked and cleared EVERY sensor that exists on the engine.

The engine 120psi compression tested. It has new reeds.

It starts fine. 1710Rpm idle when warmed up. TPS set at .709V idle. No codes. When I bump the throttle it responds like you would expect it to, however after about 4 seconds It goes from a peppy engine to a serious power loss/bog gonna die engine. I have to stop, let go the throttle and let the sled collect itself, then it will only go 5 feet or so before powering out again. If I smash the throttle the sled dies. Starts right up afterward and the same thing continues.

When it starts cold, it sounds to be running on one cyl, always PTO side. Until the engine warms up then the other side kicks in, it seems. When I took the intake side of the engine apart initially I found allot of 2 stroke oil in the air-box. Suspecting a faulty oil pump, I replaced it and synced it properly. Throttle cable has been replaced and the throttlebody/butterflies are adjusted to spec.

I have no clue what is causing this power drain, and its frustrating me as I am SURE its something I have overlooked. The computer is saying NOTHING is wrong.. yet.. its clearly not preforming how it should be. I feel like an idiot for thinking of taking it to a dealer for repair, considering my trade.. But I am out of ideas and its not a Caterpillar, Cummins or Detroit problem.

When I say I have checked everything, I mean it. What could it be. It sounds like its not getting enough fuel.. OR its getting to much. I dunno. I am thinking of getting the injectors thru a leak-down test as there's no visible filter on the fuel line, and I suspect they are plugged up, OR jammed open. HOW do I tackle this on such tiny injectors. Is there a way I can do it @ home on the bench. Thanks in advance for any additional suggestions.

When I pull the plugs.. the PTO one is always allot wetter and darker then the mag side.

 

[JoeySlushr]

Check fuel pressure yet? Pull the fuel rail off and check the screens on the injectors. No rips or tears in the reed cages where it could suck air?


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[kiliki]

un plug the TSS (throttle safety switch) this is the little switch located at the pivot point on the throttle. the pin hits this switch as you move the throttle. if the cable is too tight or the micro switch has corrosion on it you will get what you described.

 

[FurtherOn]

Check fuel pressure yet? Pull the fuel rail off and check the screens on the injectors. No rips or tears in the reed cages where it could suck air?

I will do this and report back "the injector screens". As for the reed cages, they have been thoroughly inspected and checked for any problems. Reeds are new factory replacements, and new paper gascuts. Straight as an arrow, no chips, or roughness all seal as they should.

kiliki, I did check weather or not that little tss was functioning, and its wired NC side of the 2 position switch (black and red). Throttle cable is set to 1/8th gap and both the throttle body and oiler are set and synced. Continuity when its open, none when closed. However, I didn't just unplug it and try the sled again. I checked it, then plugged it back in and gave it another try. I have a spare from another set of grips. I will give this a shot tonight and see what happens.

Is their any reason to have a Tss in there anyways, or is it redundant.. Tss was in my carbed sled to prevent crazy **** from happening when the slider hung in the bore.. If I can eliminate any of these erroneous switches I am for that. Thanks guys.

 

[kiliki]

.

Is their any reason to have a Tss in there anyways, or is it redundant.. Tss was in my carbed sled to prevent crazy **** from happening when the slider hung in the bore.. If I can eliminate any of these erroneous switches I am for that. Thanks guys.

only for it freezing open. i just cut one of the wires off the switch and tape it off. then add a tether.
you can check it with a meter but you need to have it 5 ohms or less and in the sweep check for it to jump around.

i have also seen a few of the pickups on the ignition circuit go bad. you can test them at the point they come out of the case by the recoil. the smaller plugs should be 2.

you did dump the fuel and flush the tank right? use a hanger and pull the fuel line in the tank up and inspect it for cracks along with the smart valves. you can undo the fuel pump just to the r of the steering post with just one nut and 1 plug (black and red wire) and pull it all out of the tank if needed.

service manual
https://support.countrycat.com/?tax...20ffa-3c99-4d6a-b96c-b9642791687c&feed=recent

 

[FurtherOn]

only for it freezing open. i just cut one of the wires off the switch and tape it off. then add a tether.
you can check it with a meter but you need to have it 5 ohms or less and in the sweep check for it to jump around.

-I was thinking that adding a tether would remove the need for a tss. Good, I shall do this, I have one in the mail as we write. As for the OHM check 'good' info, into my notes.

i have also seen a few of the pickups on the ignition circuit go bad. you can test them at the point they come out of the case by the recoil. the smaller plugs should be 2.

As in 2 OHM.. I gather. Ok. I did check the entire magneto back in august when I went thru the engine and its probably more then likely that something happened to it between then and now. Understanding that reducing the amount of 'false economy' is the goal for me and this sled here. I will check the mag again thru using the write-up in the 2009 service manual. If its dodgy, I will replace the whole shebang.. crank sensors, pull rope and all.

You did dump the fuel and flush the tank right? use a hanger and pull the fuel line in the tank up and inspect it for cracks along with the smart valves. you can undo the fuel pump just to the r of the steering post with just one nut and 1 plug (black and red wire) and pull it all out of the tank if needed.

One of the first things I did Kel was get rid of that old stank gas and water in the tank and clean the tank spotless. However I didn't have the fuel pump/works out of the tank. Initially I used it to bilge the tank, then STOPPED realizing I risked put all that **** thru the pump. I dumped the rest out by hand. I looked at the screens in the pickup with a flashlight and I didn't see any OBVIOUS damage, but I didn't get my HANDS on them and inspect closely. I will pull the fuel pump tonight and yard it out of there and look for cracks.

Update: Okay, I split the throttle quadrant and disconnected the micro-switch. Put it together, and fired it up. I let it warm up then proceeded to do my little circuit loop. It went further then it ever went, and managed to punch it a few times.. what a machine.. but around the far side of the loop it started to howl as before, only NOT as severe. So +1 on that micro switch Bud. Thank you. Not the entire solution but definitely a step in the right direction.

I have the heat on in the garage, so after I finish writing this, it should be cool enough to take the muffler off to get to the fuel tank, and the fuel rail.

I think Joey's advice combined with your advice concerning the fuel pickup is on the right track. Fuel system needs a very close inspection. I do NOT have a pressure gauge, but when the RPM picks up, I can watch the fuel line try to straighten out or flex, not an accurate reading I know. I will try and locate a fuel pressure setup to borrow. I noticed that the in-tank-pump has a built in return and not a looped return with a regulator on rail like a conventional EFI system. Odd to me. Like chinzy odd. Not the way I would do it but whatever.

On last note. The pump in the tank when running just seems to spray the return fuel all over the place.. like a.. sprinkler and I have no idea if that's even normal.. Looks wack to me.. but like I said I am new to Sled EFI and I have seen pumps with internal pressure reliefs, just not one so.. flamboyant I guess.. I will update as I get crap pulled apart.

Thanks again for helping me with this. Back to work.

 

[Firetrail]

Title

Maybe I missed something here and I am sorry if I did but your title says 2009 M5. You seem pretty sure that it is a 2009 and if so it is not an M5 and does not have a 500 engine. If it is an EFI and a 500 it is a 2006.
May not make much difference as the early "M" sleds had a lot of parts and "issues" in common. Just thinking that if the sled had the wrong engine in the chassis you could have an ECU mismatch.

 

[deanross]

Have you pullled the injectors out and checked to see if they are plugged? You can pull one out at a time and pull the rope to see if they spray fuel good. If they don’t, look on YouTube “fuel injector cleaning” and you can find some good articles on how to clean your injectors.

 

[FurtherOn]

Maybe I missed something here and I am sorry if I did but your title says 2009 M5. You seem pretty sure that it is a 2009 and if so it is not an M5 and does not have a 500 engine. If it is an EFI and a 500 it is a 2006.
May not make much difference as the early "M" sleds had a lot of parts and "issues" in common. Just thinking that if the sled had the wrong engine in the chassis you could have an ECU mismatch.

You sir are most certianly correct. It is a 2009 'C'5 not an 'M'5
141 track liquid cooled EFI and blacker then the inside of a cow.

2006 M5

 

[FurtherOn]

Happy Kitty

Okay.

I tore apart the fuel system, on the 'C5' (thanks mate) right down to the injectors and what do ya know it there was this grey gunk clogging up the filter screen on both of em. I bit of smashing it against the bench and cutting small strips of towel to soak up the sludge and they came clean. I settled on 12.6 ohm resistance for both.

Definitely going to put that on the fall checklist. Injector screens.

That's exactly what it looked like.. sludge. Fine Grey goop that could be scraped out of the filter element with a needle. Like lapping compound. There wasn't gobs of it just enough to plug it and restrict flow.

I pulled the fuel pump out of the tank and checked the filter elements and all hoses and lines for cracks and deterioration. and all of it seemed bang on up to snuff so I put it back in the tank and hooked the electrical up. I really want to put an inline filter somewhere in this fuel line to screen the injectors a little ahead. A suggestion for that, or could I just get a barrel filter from napa for pressure lines and slam it in. You know what I mean.

Anyways, I put it all delicately back together and when I got it running it sounded much much better. I put my gloves on and after it was warm, took it around the circuit. It tested out bloody fantastic...almost freakishly snappy. Like.. right now throttle. Man this thing has jam, and forgive me you 800 900 1000 turbo owners reading here, I am used to clapped out ride on lawn-mores, 25 year old quads and the odd cheapo bike ride. This sled is like riding a f-ing ripsaw.

So, Overlooking something minute was absolutely correct. I had gone thru the fuel system but never thought to check the injectors for clogged screens. It makes sense now why it was starving for fuel.

Thanks all who contributed to helping me with this problem, I had been bashing my head against this sled for the last couple of months and I put allot of effort into getting it all back to the glory it was when it was new. It was information overload and a pile of notes trying to sort where the problem was. All of the suggestions I investigated and I am grateful for how swiftly it was to find a solution. You guys know your stuff. I know my way around this sled pretty good for now, but as with all relationships.. 2 years before marriage.

I read that reviews on this sled were of the 'gonna want more power'. Forgive my asking, but POWER for what exactly. Powder, or that Boon-dock trail braking I watch on you-tube where there in the trees and ridiculously deep snow. The thing has 90+ more HP and I'm going to want more Power? Are they insane. This is a rocket powered bar stool on steroids with skis. Definitely not my fathers 1962 puma....holy S*** better hang on.

I think I am going to take the advice, start here with the 500 and...ahem.. throttle my way up into more advanced sleds and riding as I get broken into the sport again.

Now I don't assume that this will not be the last time I have problems with this sled, as they are.. well.. fine tuned machines or vindictive input/output devices with additudes at times. But when I run out of ideas, and the search isn't helping me, and I am ready to take a f-ing hammer to it, I know where and WHOM to turn to.

Thank you Snowest Forum. I'm going for a boot tomorrow in the daylight..

 

[Firetrail]

M5

Glad you got the sled running. There is not a whole lot of difference between the Ms and the Crossfires of any given year. The M5 was only built in 2005 as a carb and and in 2006 as an EFI. The M5 engines are very simple and tough as nails. They do not have power valves but still have a decent power curve and good HP for a 500.
I owned my first M5 in 2008 and sold it. I really missed the thing and bought another one this spring. Was not in great shape and had led a tough life. Doesn't sound as bad as your Crossfire but they are really worth restoring.
Thanks for your "entertaining" posts on your project and I am glad you are up and running.

 

[kidwoo]

glad you got it figured out

Sounds like some 6 year ethanol fuel

 

[deanross]

Good to hear when someone has a problem and gets it fixed and lets us know what is was. That’s what these forums are all about. Now someone down the road will remember posts like these and it will help them get their sled going again. I started out on an M5 and still have it as a spare sled. After you ride your C5 a year or two and step up to an 800, ride it a year or two and ride that 500 again, if you still have it, you will be blown away how little power it has. I would never want to have to go back to one again. I love my M8. It’s such a kick to climb hills and go places the M5 wouldn’t go. If you like the C5, stick with it. Just don’t ever borrow someone’s 800 and try it or your wallet will be smaller.