2 different fixes for the same problem.

[JUDD]

Now i may be losing my mind but fallow my theory.

The Redneck racing kit allows the sled to run at a hotter temp causing more expansion. This reduces the amount of piston vibration. Which seems to be the same problem the PMS Kit solves.

Any thoughts?

Has anyone had major problems with either kit?
I want to know which route is the better fix.

 

[Butta]

Hmmm....I think the jury is still out on that one. I, for one, believe, in my OWN opinion, that the PMS kit by MtnTK is a more logical, mechanically sound "fix" for the inherent design issues with the 800 CFI motor. While I won't disagree that maintaining a more consistent temperature (like the Redneck racing product claims to do) isn't a beneficial trait, the hotter temperature has me a bit leery.

I'm watching both of these "fixes" over the next year and will decide which, if either, I choose to use once my warranty is about over. Hopefully there will be some solid information on both by then.

It's frustrating that for some simple pieces of plastic that the coolant kit costs what it does. For the $$, the PMS kit sure does have a lot more to it.

Time will tell................

 

[JUDD]

i have the same concerns about the temp. I also agree with the mechanically sound fix. Ideally would do the PMS Kit, But would add a red neck kit also if it kept stock temps.
waiting to hear from the shop, warrenty was up 2 months ago. Dont want to have to make a decison yet, but not looking good.

 

[skibreeze]

I'm with Butta. The stock pistons not only have too much clearance and expansion issues. They are breaking off the skirts. IMO the PMS kit better addresses the clearance issues along with making a taller piston that will be better to prevent rocking in the bore.

I posted in a "Gizmo" thread, I asked them to put their money where their mouth was. No response to it. I am willing to bet that my 800 would still scuff pistons with their kit and nothing else. I put a PC5 on my sled and adjusted fuel by 15% in places to get EGT's in line and have over 600 miles w/o scoring pistons and this was also including a massive overheat. IMO the gizmo cannot compensate for a 15% addition in fuel to fix the issue. Now this also an issue with the PMS fix, it addresses the poor OEM tolerances but does nothing for the fuel mix.

IMO for a reliable (lol) 800, a PC5 and the PMS kit are the best products to help with that. I also had the last set of Polaris pistons Swain Tech coated.

9 pistons trashed before a PCV, and none after.

 

[theshadowrider]

I think your theory is correct. This summer I am going to put wiseco pistons in my 08 dragon. Some have just put the wisecos in and had great success. They are tighter clearances. I also think a fuel controller is needed. With that combination you should eliminate some of the major problems people are having.

 

[JUDD]

Thanks for the info guys. Know what direction i will head if the shop calls with bad news. warrenty just expired and didnt look good to me.

 

[FriscoProx]

Here's an idea, next time you burn pistons down, have the cylinders bored/re-nic'd to 86mm (813cc) at .003-.004 and install Wiseco's 86/70 forged two ring pistons.

Then run without the thermostat. It will run cooler but no more trouble with cold coolant hitting a hot cylinder and help displace heat build up around exhaust ports.

Add a richer map to the PCV. Altogether should be about the same money and address the Poo's engineering problems. Plus you get a little more displacement.

 

[poledge800]

I'm with Butta. The stock pistons not only have too much clearance and expansion issues. They are breaking off the skirts. IMO the PMS kit better addresses the clearance issues along with making a taller piston that will be better to prevent rocking in the bore.

I posted in a "Gizmo" thread, I asked them to put their money where their mouth was. No response to it. I am willing to bet that my 800 would still scuff pistons with their kit and nothing else. I put a PC5 on my sled and adjusted fuel by 15% in places to get EGT's in line and have over 600 miles w/o scoring pistons and this was also including a massive overheat. IMO the gizmo cannot compensate for a 15% addition in fuel to fix the issue. Now this also an issue with the PMS fix, it addresses the poor OEM tolerances but does nothing for the fuel mix.

IMO for a reliable (lol) 800, a PC5 and the PMS kit are the best products to help with that. I also had the last set of Polaris pistons Swain Tech coated.

9 pistons trashed before a PCV, and none after.

we had a sled that went down down repeated times time last spring so we thought ya it has to be fuel so we bought efi box and a 02 sensor to find the lean spot, but the first ride out his year it went down within 10 miles of a brand new engine with 02 readings of 11-12 now that tells you that it isnt fuel now if you have ever looked at a piston that has been cold seized it has the scores on the side of it, same as the dragon pistons we put the redneck kit on that sled and it has been trouble free since it was installed at 400 miles since then it is extremely nice to ride with out having to worry about we are more than convinced that it was the problem and not fuel

 

[Butta]

we had a sled that went down down repeated times time last spring so we thought ya it has to be fuel so we bought efi box and a 02 sensor to find the lean spot, but the first ride out his year it went down within 10 miles of a brand new engine with 02 readings of 11-12 now that tells you that it isnt fuel now if you have ever looked at a piston that has been cold seized it has the scores on the side of it, same as the dragon pistons we put the redneck kit on that sled and it has been trouble free since it was installed at 400 miles since then it is extremely nice to ride with out having to worry about we are more than convinced that it was the problem and not fuel

I really wish our schools were still teaching punctuation........................

 

[mountainhorse]

Please keep this thread clean and bash free.

Thanks in advance.

MH

 

[R44guy]

I'm with Butta. The stock pistons not only have too much clearance and expansion issues. They are breaking off the skirts. IMO the PMS kit better addresses the clearance issues along with making a taller piston that will be better to prevent rocking in the bore.

I posted in a "Gizmo" thread, I asked them to put their money where their mouth was. No response to it. I am willing to bet that my 800 would still scuff pistons with their kit and nothing else. I put a PC5 on my sled and adjusted fuel by 15% in places to get EGT's in line and have over 600 miles w/o scoring pistons and this was also including a massive overheat. IMO the gizmo cannot compensate for a 15% addition in fuel to fix the issue. Now this also an issue with the PMS fix, it addresses the poor OEM tolerances but does nothing for the fuel mix.

IMO for a reliable (lol) 800, a PC5 and the PMS kit are the best products to help with that. I also had the last set of Polaris pistons Swain Tech coated.

9 pistons trashed before a PCV, and none after.

I completely agree with what skibreeze posted! I also question the high temps of the gizmo all for $300. I had pms install the mtntk kit and my cfi 800 has never ran so good.

I think the extra heat of the gizmo may help the stock engine last longer by some extra expansion like a band aid and yet there seems to be plenty of people pleased with the kit so far? but all of these sleds have all had thermostats and coolers in the tunnel like the sleds polaris has been building for how many years but now we all need to be equalized?

I also agree with the PCV but pms has not had problems with out them and I think SLP, & Dynotech have had a hard time keeping up with all the map updates & changes from polaris to keep multiple downloadable programs for each remap or flash so far?

 

[poledge800]

i cant beleive how many people are out there that just need to have something to complain about or they arent happy at all i dont see you guys trying to find the fix except to complain about everyone elses findings on the problem

 

[JUDD]

Trying to find the best fix.

Im not complaining about anyones fix. Just trying to find the exact cause of the problem to apply more than a band-aid. Both kits address the same issue. And the fuel controler probably helps regardless.
Because its hard to remap without finding ther true cause of the problem i think people are having mapping issues. The fact is polaris may now just be figuring out the cause, because we all spent money doing their research for them. If polaris wont figure it out, i have to because im not a fan of $10,000 pieces of junk.

 

[R44guy]

Im not complaining about anyones fix. Just trying to find the exact cause of the problem to apply more than a band-aid. Both kits address the same issue. And the fuel controler probably helps regardless.
Because its hard to remap without finding ther true cause of the problem i think people are having mapping issues. The fact is polaris may now just be figuring out the cause, because we all spent money doing their research for them. If polaris wont figure it out, i have to because im not a fan of $10,000 pieces of junk.

Judd, How do both of these kits or fixes address the same issue? Both kits are completely different. The PMS/MTNTK kit fixes the piston to cylinder wall clearence issues and repairs the concern that makes a actual hard part change with pistons, cylinder shim plate,and head bolts.

The redneck gizmo is made to equalize the temps in the engine cooling system between the engine and the tunnel or cooler. How does this kit fix the tolerance issue in the engine?

The engine repair kit actually fixes the issue with broken piston skirts due to excessive tolerance issues with the factory oem polaris pistons since the 2010engine update and flash concerns.

Yes there has been map issues since the 2010 polaris engine & map updates and that is where the PCV has helped richen up the lean issues but that obviously still wont correct the piston tolerance issues.

In my opinion the 2 biggest updates are the engine update kit from pms or to actually have your cylinders replated to tighter specs and have other pistons fitted so you are with in tolerance when everything is done and said and then the PCV with a proven map for what ever polaris map flash you have.

Obviously all of the crank failures happen after these motors have ate some pistons and the skirts, they get the top end rebuilt after the rod bearings have already been damaged and then it is just a matter of time depending on what kind of breakage occurred, obviously if you melt a piston the damage may not be as extensive.

Yes these are not trouble free machines but if you can be a little proactive with some of the information now available to repair these engines before it is too late you can help control some of these concerns.

I updated my pistons with low miles with out a failure to avoid the cost and head aches down the road where some others have waited until they blew and then it cost more money. Sometimes there is also nothing that you can do and polaris should do more for there loyal customers then they are!

 

[poledge800]

Judd, How do both of these kits or fixes address the same issue? Both kits are completely different. The PMS/MTNTK kit fixes the piston to cylinder wall clearence issues and repairs the concern that makes a actual hard part change with pistons, cylinder shim plate,and head bolts.

The redneck gizmo is made to equalize the temps in the engine cooling system between the engine and the tunnel or cooler. How does this kit fix the tolerance issue in the engine?

The engine repair kit actually fixes the issue with broken piston skirts due to excessive tolerance issues with the factory oem polaris pistons since the 2010engine update and flash concerns.

Yes there has been map issues since the 2010 polaris engine & map updates and that is where the PCV has helped richen up the lean issues but that obviously still wont correct the piston tolerance issues.

In my opinion the 2 biggest updates are the engine update kit from pms or to actually have your cylinders replated to tighter specs and have other pistons fitted so you are with in tolerance when everything is done and said and then the PCV with a proven map for what ever polaris map flash you have.

Obviously all of the crank failures happen after these motors have ate some pistons and the skirts, they get the top end rebuilt after the rod bearings have already been damaged and then it is just a matter of time depending on what kind of breakage occurred, obviously if you melt a piston the damage may not be as extensive.

Yes these are not trouble free machines but if you can be a little proactive with some of the information now available to repair these engines before it is too late you can help control some of these concerns.

I updated my pistons with low miles with out a failure to avoid the cost and head aches down the road where some others have waited until they blew and then it cost more money. Sometimes there is also nothing that you can do and polaris should do more for there loyal customers then they are!

if it were fuel all the damage would be right in the middle of the piston and tell me this even as the tolerances are off why are there no cases of the sleds with the gizmo going down with out fuel controllers or anything one went down before the gizmo was installed with an efi controller and 02 sensor had it rebuilt didn't ride it again until we installed the gizmo then took off the efi controller and it has been trouble free since same with hundreds of others the pms kit may work but why pay the extra money when there is a cheaper route to go

 

[R44guy]

if it were fuel all the damage would be right in the middle of the piston

Pledge, I never said the damage was from fuel but yes when it occurs it is in the center of the piston usually. I was commenting on judds statment that the gizmo and the pms piston kit did the same thing and then just referencing the most common issues with these engine failures.

 

[Adobe-Al]

Pledge-we are all happy that the gizmo fixed your sled for now. I think all of us want to see a fix (PMS/Gizmo)work for over 2k miles. Then we can call it a true fix. I do have a question for you, why doesn't my 09 RMK 700 have this same flash cooling issue? from what I see it has the same cooling system.

R44Guy- who is going to do your dyno testing for you? (PMS thread)

One other thing- it seems at times we lump all failures as the same. A lean piston failure, cylinder skirt failure and a piston skirt failure can all have different causes. So I think we have to address as many of them as we can to prevent a failure. A single fix all product seems hard to believe. IMO

 

[R44guy]

Pledge-we are all happy that the gizmo fixed your sled for now. I think all of us want to see a fix (PMS/Gizmo)work for over 2k miles. Then we can call it a true fix. I do have a question for you, why doesn't my 09 RMK 700 have this same flash cooling issue? from what I see it has the same cooling system.

R44Guy- who is going to do your dyno testing for you? (PMS thread)

Adobe-Al, BMP - BikeMan Performance in Osceola, WI is doing the Dyno tests with some different combinations. I will post the results as soon as the testing is done unfortunately I got put off for a few days now.

 

[poledge800]

Pledge-we are all happy that the gizmo fixed your sled for now. I think all of us want to see a fix (PMS/Gizmo)work for over 2k miles. Then we can call it a true fix. I do have a question for you, why doesn't my 09 RMK 700 have this same flash cooling issue? from what I see it has the same cooling system.

R44Guy- who is going to do your dyno testing for you? (PMS thread)

One other thing- it seems at times we lump all failures as the same. A lean piston failure, cylinder skirt failure and a piston skirt failure can all have different causes. So I think we have to address as many of them as we can to prevent a failure. A single fix all product seems hard to believe. IMO

next time you stop let it sit for 10 minutes or even 5 then as soon as you start it watch the temp as you start to go it will drop

 

[R44guy]

next time you stop let it sit for 10 minutes or even 5 then as soon as you start it watch the temp as you start to go it will drop

Pledge800, I am also aware of the temp. cool downs but this has been going on with the Polaris sleds since they have been using coolant and that is why proper warm ups are needed!

IMO the excessively loose clearance or tolerance piston issues certainly help cause more engine failures when they are shocked cold with coolant and this is the only area where I believe the gizmo may help these 800 cfi's.