11' PRO engine sieze? any ideas?

[whoisthatguy]

"how can you modify the stock motor to be non-disposable?"

You put a FOR SALE sign on it before it seizes up on you. Only adds a couple of ounces.

 

[rugbynitro]

Don't take this wrong, But by the sound of what happened IMO this is 100% operator error.

As said in another post, Its a purpose built sled to be the best at basicly one thing........... Mountain riding. They build sleds also that are designed to tow & haul things. The PRO is not one of them.

Not hauling x-mas tree down the trial.

Not hauling 2 people.

Not towing another sled.

Deep snow only and if you have to trail ride to get to the snow you better be watching the guages.

I have 6 - 800 small blocks in the shop right now and they all have exactly the same problem ( broken front lower sleeves. ) Its design a problem, and Polaris has not addressed it. In IMO they are not going to. They have a 1 year warranty and most will make it that long and then the extended warranty is on to a outside insurance company. They will not be in business long if they plan on putting a long warranty on these motors.

In stock form the motor is a disposeable pile of junk at best. I would not own one without a warranty.

If your going to trial ride one of these you better use your head.

Dan

Dan,

The MY 2012 cylinder is a completely new part number.

Have you confirmed that both the 2011 and 2012 MY sleds are susceptible to the same problem (broken front lower sleeves)?

I respect your many years of experience on this topic.

 

[Pro-8250]

I love it when people b$tch about people who post questions already answered months, or even years ago. If it bugs you so much that they asked the question why not ignore the post instead of wasting our time reading your complaint about someone not searching before they ask a question.

This is the purpose of a forum, to ask questions. So what if it has already been answered. Maybe we don't all have a bunch of spare time to search for an answer that can be quickly had by posting instead of searching. Maybe he was on a smartphone and couldn't search through all the posts. Or maybe he values his time.

Could not have said it better myself!

 

[dmkhnr]

Don't take this wrong, But by the sound of what happened IMO this is 100% operator error.

As said in another post, Its a purpose built sled to be the best at basicly one thing........... Mountain riding. They build sleds also that are designed to tow & haul things. The PRO is not one of them.

Not hauling x-mas tree down the trial.

Not hauling 2 people.

Not towing another sled.

Deep snow only and if you have to trail ride to get to the snow you better be watching the guages.

I have 6 - 800 small blocks in the shop right now and they all have exactly the same problem ( broken front lower sleeves. ) Its design a problem, and Polaris has not addressed it. In IMO they are not going to. They have a 1 year warranty and most will make it that long and then the extended warranty is on to a outside insurance company. They will not be in business long if they plan on putting a long warranty on these motors.

In stock form the motor is a disposeable pile of junk at best. I would not own one without a warranty.

If your going to trial ride one of these you better use your head.

Dan

Operator error cause he let it heat up, and a design problem because of what?

 

[2XM3]

i will agree that the 4cfi 08-09-10 motors are crap, having built quite a few that broke, I have never seen a 2011 or 2012 motor break the cylinder skirt yet, or for that matter have any piston issues at all. So far in the ones i've seen clearances are pretty good, unlike the .014 +/- of the horrible 08-10 motors.

 

[indydan]

Great questions people.

As for the 08 thru 10 motors....verses the 2011 & 12's.

First, it is a very special motor and in many ways I really like it.

#1 - When you box one up for shipping & and weigh it. WOW!!!!
The power to weight ratio is enough to make me fall in love with it forever.
#2 - its small and very compact.
#3 - its easy to work on.

#/1 - Rod angle ( The rod is to short ) and its driving the piston into the side of the cylinder. this cannot be fixed by moving the pin location in the piston. By moving the pin location down and moving mass above the pin center line does not change the side load area from the rod on the cylinder sleeve. Its still in exactly the same spot.
,
#2 - After updates have been done the compression ratio on the 08,09 & 10 motors is to low for the timing curve on those motors it makes for poor low-end performance.

The 11 & 12 motors have a much better balance of timing to compression ratio. this is why heads built for the 08,09 & 10 motors don't always fair so well and the det sensor goes off on the 11 & 12 motors that didn't on the 08,09 & 10 motors.

Also the 08, 09 & 10 motors ( 4 injector ) benifit more from premix then the 11 & 12.

the 11 & 12 motors ( 2 injector ) motors need the pumps turned up alittle to help rod life. premix still helps these motors but it does lean the fuel curve alittle if you have you motor dialed super lean with a fuel controler. I am a premix lover but you always need to keep in mind that the fuel delivery as been deluted slightly.900's love this.

The main problem is rod length.

I have 5 sets of protype long rods done as of right now and I will have cylinder spacers done shortly.

Hopefully more done soon. Shortly I will have 800 Small block package that comes with a multi-year warranty that should be as good as the Old big block top-end with a better Bottom-end. Shouild be a really nice package.

Dan

 

[indydan]

Operator error cause he let it heat up, and a design problem because of what?

OPPS!! Missed this, Yes because he over heated it.

Dan

 

[IQRIDR]

As for the 08 thru 10 motors....verses the 2011 & 12's.

First, it is a very special motor and in many ways I really like it.

#1 - When you box one up for shipping & and weigh it. WOW!!!!
The power to weight ratio is enough to make me fall in love with it forever.
#2 - its small and very compact.
#3 - its easy to work on.

#/1 - Rod angle ( The rod is to short ) and its driving the piston into the side of the cylinder. this cannot be fixed by moving the pin location in the piston. By moving the pin location down and moving mass above the pin center line does not change the side load area from the rod on the cylinder sleeve. Its still in exactly the same spot.
,
#2 - After updates have been done the compression ratio on the 08,09 & 10 motors is to low for the timing curve on those motors it makes for poor low-end performance.

The 11 & 12 motors have a much better balance of timing to compression ratio. this is why heads built for the 08,09 & 10 motors don't always fair so well and the det sensor goes off on the 11 & 12 motors that didn't on the 08,09 & 10 motors.

Also the 08, 09 & 10 motors ( 4 injector ) benifit more from premix then the 11 & 12.

the 11 & 12 motors ( 2 injector ) motors need the pumps turned up alittle to help rod life. premix still helps these motors but it does lean the fuel curve alittle if you have you motor dialed super lean with a fuel controler. I am a premix lover but you always need to keep in mind that the fuel delivery as been deluted slightly.900's love this.

The main problem is rod length.

I have 5 sets of protype long rods done as of right now and I will have cylinder spacers done shortly.

Hopefully more done soon. Shortly I will have 800 Small block package that comes with a multi-year warranty that should be as good as the Old big block top-end with a better Bottom-end. Shouild be a really nice package.

Dan

So I've done a little measuring and contemplating this myself Dan, are you using the old style 136mm rod with a cylinder spacer coming up at approximately 830cc? I'm thinking about doing this to my '10 800 monoblock carbed motor and seeing how she runs. Maybe with the Pro RMK piston to tighten the clearances a little more too...if I can get it to .006 I'll be happy enough. Thoughts?

 

[indydan]

So I've done a little measuring and contemplating this myself Dan, are you using the old style 136mm rod with a cylinder spacer coming up at approximately 830cc? I'm thinking about doing this to my '10 800 monoblock carbed motor and seeing how she runs. Maybe with the Pro RMK piston to tighten the clearances a little more too...if I can get it to .006 I'll be happy enough. Thoughts?

Well first, rod length doesn't increase motor size. And the old big block rod had a 27mm rod pin, the small block has a 29mm rod pin. That being said it has to be acustom made rod.

If it was that easy we would be in fat city.

You are correct about good clearance that is must on these motors.

 

[pus1100]

Well first, rod length doesn't increase motor size. And the old big block rod had a 27mm rod pin, the small block has a 29mm rod pin. That being said it has to be acustom made rod.

If it was that easy we would be in fat city.

You are correct about good clearance that is must on these motors.

are you going for wiseco or oem piston in your small block 800 package?i have some serious piston slop in my 2011 pro,dont know if it is normal,or it is because the very low oil usage.cant find any info on running wiseco in cfi2 motors.what is your take on it?

 

[theshadowrider]

#/1 - Rod angle ( The rod is to short ) and its driving the piston into the side of the cylinder. this cannot be fixed by moving the pin location in the piston. By moving the pin location down and moving mass above the pin center line does not change the side load area from the rod on the cylinder sleeve. Its still in exactly the same spot.

Dan

So is the success of the "fix it" kit in your opinion due to running pistons that are in spec and not because of they changed pin location?

 

[2XM3]

It just moves it up away from the bottom of the weak cylinder skirt as well as the clearance issue.
In all endurance engines long rod to stroke ratio is the way to go. In trans am motors we always tried to use the longest possible rod.(2:1 ratio is tried for) And this also allows us to use a very short piston, ie much less drag and lighter with (due to rod angle) less wear and better life.
Another benifit of a long rod motor is the piston will "dwell" longer at tdc and bdc thus allowing for better flame travel ect (in 4 stroke) as well as head flow being more stable in relation to crank rotation. And being that the motor is pretty much a "steady state" RPM, ie 6000-12000 the initial port flow at low rpm does not matter as much.
Short rod motors are best suited to drag use/short track where their ratio works very well with large cross sectional ports. The short rod ratio produces a very hard initial pull on the port,getting the air in a large port moving quick,espesially with the long duration cams that need to be run.
But the ring/piston life is very limited and the bore MUST be very round as well as stable as side loading/friction is high.

Crib notes : short rod bad,long rod good,Dans idea and kit great idea.

Plus I like the idea of a nice strong billet rod in there with turbos ect

 

[indydan]

more great questions.

are you going for wiseco or oem piston in your small block 800 package?i have some serious piston slop in my 2011 pro,dont know if it is normal,or it is because the very low oil usage.cant find any info on running wiseco in cfi2 motors.what is your take on it?

I will be using cast pistons for most applications, Cast are more forgiving and under normal use conditions last much longer. Wiseco forged have their place, Even though not a big fan for a daily driver. back in 1999 I ran Wiseco's in my 700 Turbo..... WAY better then the OEM elko piece for a Turbor for my application I was runninmg alot of boost and on the edge of the fuel I ran and if I got to close to the edge and deto a OEM ELKO piston the ring-land & rings crumbled and thrashed the turbo. Once I fittted it for Wisecos you could stick it or deto it and the piston & rings were soft enough & did not break apart.

" QUOTE " So is the success of the "fix it" kit in your opinion due to running pistons that are in spec and not because of they changed pin location? As for the " FIX KIT " It was the first thing to come to the table and it is better then putting one back stock. as " QUOTE 2XM3 said " It moves the piston up away for the trouble problem. His explaination is right on track. Well said 2XM3.

Because the rod is so short the piston comes down to far and cylinder sleeve extends down to far to try and support it. ( kind of a good Idea ) but not really....... Because the 85mm bore the sleeve is not thick enough for its length and the leverage the piston has over time snaps it off.

The " FIX KIT " does help reduce the leveage length of the piston, And then add to the FIT KIT, a cylinder that is the right size & the slapping effect is also reduced. Its like ( Blue Printing ) even a bad design.... is better if all the little imperfections are minimized.

2XM3's example of short verses long rod motors a great simplified explaination.

One most always keep in mind with the internet we are talking to a massive field of people and the same thing is not always great for everyone.

Their are people that drag race, hill climb, mountain ride, and trail ride, bar hop, lake race, and so on. My busines back in the 80's & early 90's was all about bar hoppin & lake racing, the mid to late 90's started to be all about long gevity.

Again great posts people.

Dan

 

[pus1100]

how much longer will the rod in your kit be?i am guessing you will supply longer cylinder bolts with it?i would like to run longer rods before future mods like porting/single pipe.it makes me sick,thinking of loosing crankcase,crank and monoblock after mods due to broken piston/cylinder skirts.only mod so far is Brads 12.5 head.

 

[pus1100]

I will be using cast pistons for most applications, Cast are more forgiving and under normal use conditions last much longer. Wiseco forged have their place, Even though not a big fan for a daily driver. back in 1999 I ran Wiseco's in my 700 Turbo..... WAY better then the OEM elko piece for a Turbor for my application I was runninmg alot of boost and on the edge of the fuel I ran and if I got to close to the edge and deto a OEM ELKO piston the ring-land & rings crumbled and thrashed the turbo. Once I fittted it for Wisecos you could stick it or deto it and the piston & rings were soft enough & did not break apart.

" QUOTE " So is the success of the "fix it" kit in your opinion due to running pistons that are in spec and not because of they changed pin location? As for the " FIX KIT " It was the first thing to come to the table and it is better then putting one back stock. as " QUOTE 2XM3 said " It moves the piston up away for the trouble problem. His explaination is right on track. Well said 2XM3.

Because the rod is so short the piston comes down to far and cylinder sleeve extends down to far to try and support it. ( kind of a good Idea ) but not really....... Because the 85mm bore the sleeve is not thick enough for its length and the leverage the piston has over time snaps it off.

The " FIX KIT " does help reduce the leveage length of the piston, And then add to the FIT KIT, a cylinder that is the right size & the slapping effect is also reduced. Its like ( Blue Printing ) even a bad design.... is better if all the little imperfections are minimized.

2XM3's example of short verses long rod motors a great simplified explaination.

One most always keep in mind with the internet we are talking to a massive field of people and the same thing is not always great for everyone.

Their are people that drag race, hill climb, mountain ride, and trail ride, bar hop, lake race, and so on. My busines back in the 80's & early 90's was all about bar hoppin & lake racing, the mid to late 90's started to be all about long gevity.

Again great posts people.

Dan

i remember on my old peugeot 505 turbodiesel car,the crank centerline was offset to the cylinder bores.i guess it was the french way to decrease side forces on piston and cylinder walls.those motors was all about longetivity.had almost no compression loss when it had reached 600000 km.started like it was summer in strong winter cold.

 

[IceCap]

Question, Wouldn,t the longer piston in the "fix kit" reduce the side impact (load) on the cylinder wall?

I agree it is not the total solution, But my way of thinking is that it at least spreads the load over a larger area.

 

[elvis1280]

thanks for all the help on here guys. To be honest i have never had so many responses on my cat forum for any thread. Like i said above the polaris dealer in steamboat did a fast turn-a-round on jays sled, and it was the crank bearing. He has 800 miles and reading others posts, that is the magic mileage area to look out for.
I do agree that no mountain sled can handle 8miles of trail with two people on it. but I also know that this part on your guys' sleds is breaking and it sucks cause there is now way to check it really or keep an eye on it?

thanks again, I hope the new m800 cat can keep up with you PRO guys this year! If it does, were gonna have some amazing new changes to sleds over the next 3yrs! I love the battles between companies, its great for the sport and you guys have the sled to beat for sure! So for all ours sake, hope that if we meet on the hill, my sled WINS YOURS? LMAO

chris

 

[2XM3]

Question, Wouldn,t the longer piston in the "fix kit" reduce the side impact (load) on the cylinder wall?

I agree it is not the total solution, But my way of thinking is that it at least spreads the load over a larger area.

Yes, but if you actually figure the crossectional area of the increase the % of load change is only a small ammount. ie (example only,guessing) say the piston was 3 inches tall, now add 1/4 inch to its length..figure that over the area and its a small change, and the actual side load does not change, only spreads out a tad.
Now as Indy said change rod angle and the thrust load drops dramaticly.
In the d8 motors I did we plasma sprayed the outside bottom of the cylinder so it would be a slight press fit into the case in hopes this would reinforce this weak area. Sleds have been sold so can't say if it helped or not.

 

[indydan]

Question, Wouldn,t the longer piston in the "fix kit" reduce the side impact (load) on the cylinder wall?

I agree it is not the total solution, But my way of thinking is that it at least spreads the load over a larger area.

The pin location change can be a good thing as long the piston doesn't start to knife edge on the exhuast side. Pin location is a touchy area. This is what the old 650's and big borer ultras use to do.

As 2XM3 said the rod angle just to short.

You can tell Polaris knows there is a problem in that area.

The 08's & 09's are 2 really bad ones, The 10's and newer are alittle thicker in that area and require a different base gasket to allow for the bigger sleeve. The 11 & 12's also have a small porting change.

 

[Outlaw]

The Gizmo by what was? Redneck Racing is what you're talking about. Those that ran them found the sled does run 15 degrees or so hotter than a non-bypassed sled, but the temp swings at startup are less. The bypass avoids a cold shot within 5 sec of restart purported to cause the piston scuff on the 08-10's. Less/non issue with the 11's as time proved out last year, despite smaller coolers. Don't know if they were really on to something, at least for the CFI4's. They made some marketing noise here last year, avoided tough questions, then dropped out of sight early in the season. Product is still around, but I think the co. organized differently.

The Performance Enhancement Kit (Formerly Gizmo) is still around. We are advertised in Snowest,Online and we were at the Boise Snow Show. November Snowest, December Modstock and I am told January Snowest Editorial. The new company is Most Wanted Performance. We have stayed off the forums so far and have let our product speak for itself. We have done a design change and have sent update kits to all our dealers that ran them last year. this was free of charge. Any questions are welcome. If you care to look back at last years post under the Gizmo I don't believe that there was a question unanswered. Those of you that are having issues and those that have not should look into the kit. Ask your dealer or call Polaris tech about it. Judging by this post and many others our kit could sure help.
Ride With Confidence.
mostwantedperformance.com
Regards
T