What would you do? Avy safety and reluctant group

[x-guy]

I was discussing avalanche safety with my brother, he is also my main riding partner, we have beacons, probes, shovels, basically the bare minimum for mountain safety equiptment. While driving we were discussing how real of a threat avalanche danger is, and the answers I recieved sent a chill up my spine to be honest.

His view is that avalanche danger will always be in the back of his mind, but that we could get hit by a car crossing the street, so he is not going to let it worry him. Basically he feels that his gut should tell him if he is safe to climb or not, and that you can basically tell by taking a first run whether to stay off, and that if it has been climbed that day, or if its not a steep slop then it would be fine. He blames the media mostly for instilling fear in peoples minds, but figures when you compare the amount of sledders on a hill to the amount of avalanche victims its very small.

I just think he is not taking this as serious as it needs to be, dont let it ruin your day, but at the same time you need to be educated in my view, and stay away when its not safe. No matter the danger, if he gets buried I will try to rescue him no matter what, he is my brother after all, so this could very well become my problem, but I also have a young son to come home too. I know alot of his views directly contradict what they teach you, and what should be common knowledge, but I cannot drive home this point to him, nor the rest of our group, and I am the only one that seems to want to take avalanche courses. The biggest problem was for the past 22 years we have ridden in areas that are for the most part pretty safe, and have remained uneducated on the dangers out there, and I think this has given him a false sense of security that it will not happen to him, but we are riding in more extreme terrain with much more powerful sleds.

I know he says accidents will happen, but in my opinion there is a big difference between accidents, and preventable accidents. Am I overreacting? Have I read to many sad threads on snowest of tragedy? I don't see how I can deal with this other than to find another group to ride with, but thats really not the direction I would like to go. It truly breaks my heart to have family act this ignorant, I just dont know how to get through to him.

What do you guys think I should do?

 

[pano-dude]

He's rolling the dice if this is his thinking. It's not just his life, your's is on the line as well.

You could get hit by a car crossing the street but do you cross with you eyes closed? No, 99% of people look both ways right?

Same with being in the backcountry. Dig a pit, look at the snow to see what the stability is.

To "test a slope" by taking a poke at it will bite back eventually.

I'd sign him up for a avy course for Christmas and sit him down to watch a dozen more turns with your son.

 

[cobbycat]

avys are becoming more and more of an issue, mostly due to the capability of the newer sleds. bottom line; if your partners out riding are not safe, trained, and equipped, then your life is in danger. a group is only as safe as their weakest link will allow. I trust my life to the guys I ride with, as they trust me with theirs and we trust each other because we all took training together, we practice together, and we have even recovered a downed sledder from a snowy grave together.(not from our group, no beacon, probed for 3.5 hrs to find) if your brother won't get training, buy it for him for christmas, pull the mom card, black mail, whatever you have to do. once he is there, he will be glued to his seat as it is very eye opening experience. and if he won't go still then quit riding with him and find some buds that are willing. I couldn't imagine killing my brother!!

 

[EricW]

He is right....accidents will happen.

That said, you loosing your life, your wife loosing her husband, and your kid loosing his father because his brother didn't take the time to learn weather, wind, snow condition, slope grade, and at a minimum learn how to read an avy report is not an accident. It is irresponsible.

He has to know his brother will no doubt go under that hang-fire cornice to try to save his buried azz which has a big chance of taking you from those you love because he chose to be casual with his self preservation.

He has the right to be casual with his own self preservation and so he should sky dive with a old shute, kayak where no one goes, or take on any other 1 victim sport. He is choosing a sport and an approach to it that could well cost other their lives as well based on his actions.

The other side of that is you are willingly riding with someone that threatens your well being and your families future. I know ya love your brother, but will your wife and kids be OK with all the hardship that could be the direct result of going with him given the knowledge you obviously have of the associated risks. Might be time to make a hard choice man. Choose life. EW

 

[x-guy]

Thanks for the suggestions, I think an avalanche safety course for a Christmas present is an excellent idea! Not give him the option, if he doesnt learn from the course, I am thinking he won't ever, and I guess I will be on to new riding partners, or selling the sled.

Thanks again.

 

[sled_guy]

I've been riding in this rodeo for a long time. I remember when avy gear was something that only back country skiers needed. Then we had a close call and we started wearing gear, but we weren't real smart. Some of us kept talking about it and always reminding eachother about it and over time we all got a lot smarter and continue to get smarter.

I'm saying, don't give up on him... keep talking about it, expose him to the avy class, movie, other stuff... always talk about it and eventually he'll wise up. Sure, you want him smart from day one, but don't give up if he's going to keep riding.

sled_guy

 

[skibreeze]

I've been riding in this rodeo for a long time. I remember when avy gear was something that only back country skiers needed. Then we had a close call and we started wearing gear, but we weren't real smart. Some of us kept talking about it and always reminding eachother about it and over time we all got a lot smarter and continue to get smarter.

I'm saying, don't give up on him... keep talking about it, expose him to the avy class, movie, other stuff... always talk about it and eventually he'll wise up. Sure, you want him smart from day one, but don't give up if he's going to keep riding.

sled_guy

Agreed, we first got beacons and probes after a friend was buried in a slide, luckily his hand and head was still showing. We keep learning more thru experience, reading, and took a class this year.

 

[Lake Cle Elum]

Last season, I was "tail end Charlie" and watched my whole group ride across and avy chute that had taken out the groomer earlier in the year.

All rode thru w/o a care in the world and just followed the guy ahead.

I always practice "one guy at a time" thru an area like that....

At our next stop, they got a little bit of "preaching"....

On the return trip, they repeated their mistake....Think I'll find new riding friends this year..........

 

[Stovebolt]

x-guy,

You have taken a tough situation and asked the hive mind for perspective on it, rather than just throw your own Brother under the bus.

To me, you sound like a person with sound judgement and a sense of responsibility and accountability. Your Brother sounds like a jerk - I'd throw him under the bus. Ignorance kills.

Don't quit the sport. Quit your Brother. But tell him WHY! You are the one who needs to change, follow the direction your good sense is sending you toward, and keep doing avy refreshers and find safer peeps to ride with. If your Brother sees this and feels it and eventually "gets it" - everybody wins. If he doesn't, then he doesn't - you can't force change, you can only influence it at best. Detachment is hard when it's your Brother who is being unsafe - hell, he might even be a cool guy, just ignorant. Makes it even tougher. If this is too hard for you, show this post to your Brother - and tell him STOVEBOLT would drive the bus.

Good luck, stay the course....

Stovey
************************************

Might be time to make a hard choice man. Choose life. EW

Thanks for the suggestions, I think an avalanche safety course for a Christmas present is an excellent idea! Not give him the option, if he doesnt learn from the course, I am thinking he won't ever, and I guess I will be on to new riding partners, or selling the sled.

Thanks again.

 

[RMKcowboy]

Last season, I was "tail end Charlie" and watched my whole group ride across and avy chute that had taken out the groomer earlier in the year.

All rode thru w/o a care in the world and just followed the guy ahead.

I always practice "one guy at a time" thru an area like that....

At our next stop, they got a little bit of "preaching"....

On the return trip, they repeated their mistake....Think I'll find new riding friends this year..........

You're always welcome over here!
I do most of my riding in an area that has very little, if any, avy activity (I've never heard of an avy in the areas we ride at least). But last year, I was playing on an open slope above the road, while my wife was on the road cut bank taking pictures of me. I hit the slope 4-5 times, and on my way down after the last climb I noticed about an 18" wide crack in the snow right where the top of the road cut met the actual slope... made me really think! We moved on after that to other spots to play.

 

[Vertical-Extreme]

Send him to a avy course. it will scare the chit out of him. we ride with a couple guys once and a while who have never been to any type of training and it is a night and day differnence. not saying we are perfect or that we never used to do some stupid stuff, but it was a real eye opener taking a ast course. if it does not change his attitude, find some new ridin buddies
TH

 

[justadude]

Did you tell them about your observation? It's a good opportunity to educate.

Last season, I was "tail end Charlie" and watched my whole group ride across and avy chute that had taken out the groomer earlier in the year.

All rode thru w/o a care in the world and just followed the guy ahead.

I always practice "one guy at a time" thru an area like that....

At our next stop, they got a little bit of "preaching"....

On the return trip, they repeated their mistake....Think I'll find new riding friends this year..........

 

[tudizzle]

Dig a pit, look at the snow to see what the stability is.

.

You would have to dig a pit on every hill...on every aspect for this to be even slightly effective. Where a skier may only hit 3-4 hills in the BC, sledders will hit 15-20 in a day....at 20-30 minutes per pit that would be more than half the day digging? Does anybody really do this.

 

[Powderhound]

Find the thread on here from last year. It is the storied accounts of the eleven who died in the avy in BC. Have him read where they had to leave their buried friends that were calling out to them cause the hill was sliding for the third time. I cannot imagine the pain of having multiple riders buried and I have to decide who lives and who dies. I do not wear my beacon for me. i wear it for the others in my group. I wear it so that I can help find them if they are buried. If I am buried I am screwed !!!!! It is up to the others in the group to help me.

One of my best friends was caught in an Avy last year on a hill that was blistered with trees and we had hit it a million times and never saw it slide. Buried him to his neck. As we went to help a portion of the hill slid a second time. Luckily it didnt make it to him. WOKE US ALL UP TO THE POWER OF AN AVY..

Throw the hammer down either your brother takes an avy course, or he is never to ride with you. Remeber it is your *** that will be buried and i hope he knows enough to get you out.

Good Luck !!!!!

 

[mtnpull]

With your brothers attitude he is bound to be a statistic or cause a statistic in the future. Many times sledders are "forced" to learn to be safe by a tragedy in their group. Unfortunately this leaves them with a lifetime of regrets. Just because a slope has tracks on it DOES NOT make it safe. If conditions are right, there is a trigger spot and it just may not have been hit or overloaded yet.

Do whatever you can to change his way of thinking. Be obnoxious about it, be overbearing, whatever it takes to get him to wake up. Find some vids of actually recoveries, etc and get him to watch it. There are times it's ok to be on the hills and other times you are just asking for trouble.

 

[pano-dude]

You would have to dig a pit on every hill...on every aspect for this to be even slightly effective. Where a skier may only hit 3-4 hills in the BC, sledders will hit 15-20 in a day....at 20-30 minutes per pit that would be more than half the day digging? Does anybody really do this.

Why not spend 20 mins have a coffee break( or smoke if that's the way you roll) and dig one? Especially early in the year to see what the snow pack looks like. Doesn't have to be on every hill, I just like to see if there is any potential issues. If I dig a pit and see a bad layer it's a day to stay off the big stuff.

It may not help but it sures doesn't hurt.

 

[mtnpull]

You would have to dig a pit on every hill...on every aspect for this to be even slightly effective. Where a skier may only hit 3-4 hills in the BC, sledders will hit 15-20 in a day....at 20-30 minutes per pit that would be more than half the day digging? Does anybody really do this.

Not necessarily, the snow pack should be similar on similar slopes and aspects, in other words, a NE facing slope at 9000' elevation should have a similar snow pack as other NE facing slopes at 9000' elevation within a general area. Venture far enough away and it may start to vary, but you can get a good idea of the snow pack by digging a few pits on a couple different aspects. Following the avy forecasts on a daily basis in a given area can also help a lot IF you know the terms and what they are talking about. If there are any persistent weak layers in a given area they will definitely be mentioning them and the aspects they are finding them on.

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

Why not spend 20 mins have a coffee break( or smoke if that's the way you roll) and dig one? Especially early in the year to see what the snow pack looks like. Doesn't have to be on every hill, I just like to see if there is any potential issues. If I dig a pit and see a bad layer it's a day to stay off the big stuff.

It may not help but it sures doesn't hurt.

real simple to dig a pit on every aspect(use a smaller less steep area)..just do a small side hill cut with your sled and then probe it for layers..your track will cut a perfect test wall..we do this all the time..just not on big open slopes...but it allows you a snapshot of conditions....

 

[tudizzle]

During my Avy refresher course this year they were talking about an experiment where they dug 10 avy pits 10 feet apart on the same hill. Each told a completely different story. "Dig a pit" seems to be a kinda go to answer to peoples avy questions but in reality they are not as telling as once thought.


Sure they can give you a basic understanding of recent snow activity and the different layers that have been put down...but the results could be completely different 50 feet to the left. A shear test in one spot could provide you with a false sense of security for the rest of that slope.

just say'n

 

[tudizzle]

back on subject.....


The xmas gift sounds like a great idea!