We got nailed on Caribou Basin!
- Thread starter mountainbigbull
- Start date
Some ideas...
Over 200$ on potential support.
I think that is just the start, if you want to do this, plan it and let us know what you want to do. Maybe a second party to help organize it?
Perhaps we can pool in together and fund this mission, and if anything is left over after paying all the costs, we can donate to a worth while charity on behalf of Snowest Forum.
I think if you need a lawyer, you should get one. Sounds like you don't... but if there is enough support, and the lawyer can counterclaim for all the costs, and we would have more to donate.
I think this should get front page on the local newspapers.
Perhaps if you go forward, an additional thread in General would generate more interest.
Sledders should not bow down to this.
WIRED1 is a Lawyer, and a sledder, maybe she can point us in the right direction.
Over 200$ on potential support.
I think that is just the start, if you want to do this, plan it and let us know what you want to do. Maybe a second party to help organize it?
Perhaps we can pool in together and fund this mission, and if anything is left over after paying all the costs, we can donate to a worth while charity on behalf of Snowest Forum.
I think if you need a lawyer, you should get one. Sounds like you don't... but if there is enough support, and the lawyer can counterclaim for all the costs, and we would have more to donate.
I think this should get front page on the local newspapers.
Perhaps if you go forward, an additional thread in General would generate more interest.
Sledders should not bow down to this.
WIRED1 is a Lawyer, and a sledder, maybe she can point us in the right direction.
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I do agree with you, but I thought about that too, and IMO the only thing is it needs to come off as sledders being proactive about this and pointing out that they thought they were in the right area (not in Caribou habitat), and were, and simply stating that they never meant to ride in restricted areas, and had it actually been a restricted area with a designated boundary and signs, they wouldn't have been there, since 99% of sledders respect the boundary and the caribou. Its going to be hard to drum up support if we slam the Ministry of Env., and come off self righteous and cocky. Besides, if we make the Ministry look foolish, who do you think they are going to target? They will be looking to make an example of sledders the moment we step out of bounds next time, and you can believe that they will know the boundaries, doubtful they will make the same mistake twice, then likely we will be the ones in the paper looking foolish. We will probably get the front page exposure "Snowmobilers chasing Caribou around the mountain" instead of "Ministry reps make mistake" on page 13 between the personals.
Besides all this, we can tell the media what actually happened, but they can manipulate it however they want. All they need to do is get our side of the story and then in an attempt to look unbiased, interview a wildlife biologist who says: "In this case the snowmobilers were in the correct area, but at least 15 other times this season...blah blah." right beside a photo of a dead caribou that was killed on the higway with a caption that says "Caribou herds have been dwindling because of a loss of habitat to recreational users that are forcing them out of their habitat." We could still come off looking like the bad guys. Its one of those things that could help us now, but come back to bite us in the a$$ later.
Great to hear that we have a lawyer/sledder in the mix though!!
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B
barefooter
Well-known member
Sorry to hear about this incident.
As stated above - this is an issue the BCSF should be directly involved in. I don't want to belittle the effort (contributing towards costs) but if every Alberta sledder who went every other weekend to Revy/Golden/Sicamous used their money to buy a BCSF membership and local club membership, I think this sport would have a lot more "political" pull. Before i get flamed on this (seems to be a bit of Alberta/B.C. animosity on some posts) I am from Alberta, but am also a member of the FT Sask Club., Vernon and Hunter's Range clubs. It is incidents like these that will show the benefits of an organization like the BCSF.
Now - to the ticket. If the Minister had not yet determined the closure boundaries pursuant to the enabling legislation or regulations, then the tickets are likely void. (Yes - I am a lawyer too). This is best determined by someone who practices law in BC. If this is the case - the Crown will likely just withdraw the charge. You may have to get someone to appear - I don't know how BC works.
Again - talk to the Revelstoke club and the BCSF and get them involved. Join both, as they will all need our support in these kinds of "dust ups"
As stated above - this is an issue the BCSF should be directly involved in. I don't want to belittle the effort (contributing towards costs) but if every Alberta sledder who went every other weekend to Revy/Golden/Sicamous used their money to buy a BCSF membership and local club membership, I think this sport would have a lot more "political" pull. Before i get flamed on this (seems to be a bit of Alberta/B.C. animosity on some posts) I am from Alberta, but am also a member of the FT Sask Club., Vernon and Hunter's Range clubs. It is incidents like these that will show the benefits of an organization like the BCSF.
Now - to the ticket. If the Minister had not yet determined the closure boundaries pursuant to the enabling legislation or regulations, then the tickets are likely void. (Yes - I am a lawyer too). This is best determined by someone who practices law in BC. If this is the case - the Crown will likely just withdraw the charge. You may have to get someone to appear - I don't know how BC works.
Again - talk to the Revelstoke club and the BCSF and get them involved. Join both, as they will all need our support in these kinds of "dust ups"
I was asked to chime in, as the SW Lawyer.
You don't need a lawyer unless you want to waste your money. This is just a ticket. I know you want to set an example or prove a point, but to do so would cost you a great deal of money. Here's my suggestion.
Talk to the local club Prez's. Find out from where and whom they get their information. Contact said person, in writing, requesting information on 1) where the boundaries, 2) where the boundary signs are 3) when were these boundaries set and 4) what forms of public notifications were used to announce said changes. Also contact the forest guys that manage that neck of the woods and ask the same things.
Again, DO IT IN WRITING!!! If they call, ask for it in writing. Fight the ticket but go in prepared, with as much documentation as you can. Photographs of the area in showing no signs is good too.
Ignorance of the law is no defense of breaking it. BUT, judges love it when someone takes the time to research what they did wrong.
When in court: Show up dressed nice, preferably a suit (shows respect of the court and system). Have everything in order and easy to find, in a manila file folder. On the left inside flap of the folder, write out an outline of your argument. Not detailed, just key point in a flowing order so you can glance at it and remember what you wanted to say. Do not read it though. Know what you want to say and how you want to say it in advance. This is just to jar your memory. On a finicky note, if you wear a suit, when you sit down, unbutton the jacket (more comfy). BUT, when you stand up, button it up immediately. Again, respect. And yes, they actually taught of that in law school.
Good luck.
Oh, and for the record, I have officially switched my status with the bar association to "inactive" and therefore cannot legally practice law. So I hereby resign as the "official" SW Lawyer.
You don't need a lawyer unless you want to waste your money. This is just a ticket. I know you want to set an example or prove a point, but to do so would cost you a great deal of money. Here's my suggestion.
Talk to the local club Prez's. Find out from where and whom they get their information. Contact said person, in writing, requesting information on 1) where the boundaries, 2) where the boundary signs are 3) when were these boundaries set and 4) what forms of public notifications were used to announce said changes. Also contact the forest guys that manage that neck of the woods and ask the same things.
Again, DO IT IN WRITING!!! If they call, ask for it in writing. Fight the ticket but go in prepared, with as much documentation as you can. Photographs of the area in showing no signs is good too.
Ignorance of the law is no defense of breaking it. BUT, judges love it when someone takes the time to research what they did wrong.
When in court: Show up dressed nice, preferably a suit (shows respect of the court and system). Have everything in order and easy to find, in a manila file folder. On the left inside flap of the folder, write out an outline of your argument. Not detailed, just key point in a flowing order so you can glance at it and remember what you wanted to say. Do not read it though. Know what you want to say and how you want to say it in advance. This is just to jar your memory. On a finicky note, if you wear a suit, when you sit down, unbutton the jacket (more comfy). BUT, when you stand up, button it up immediately. Again, respect. And yes, they actually taught of that in law school.
Good luck.
Oh, and for the record, I have officially switched my status with the bar association to "inactive" and therefore cannot legally practice law. So I hereby resign as the "official" SW Lawyer.
need to fight
my buddies will also donate to the fight 5 of us, please set up something on snowwest. the word is out lets fight, as you know next year nothing like this should happen again.
my buddies will also donate to the fight 5 of us, please set up something on snowwest. the word is out lets fight, as you know next year nothing like this should happen again.
Just this year the FS is enforcing a closure in MT (Hylite) that is still tied up in court.
I don't believe there's any maps or signs but people have been ticketed and for some reason it sticks in court???
I don't know how this is possible besides the fact we are the nerdy kids on the playground who gets frustration taken out on us by the bullyes (FS) cause drunken Step Dad from home beats them (greenies).
Good luck, I think if you do like Wired says you might at least impress the judge and let you off.
I don't believe there's any maps or signs but people have been ticketed and for some reason it sticks in court???
I don't know how this is possible besides the fact we are the nerdy kids on the playground who gets frustration taken out on us by the bullyes (FS) cause drunken Step Dad from home beats them (greenies).
Good luck, I think if you do like Wired says you might at least impress the judge and let you off.
Thanks Wired1 for the advise before you resigned. I never thought about what I would wear!
You make good points barefooter. We all need to get organized and join clubs and organizations to help make a stronger voice if we want to keep back country open for snowmobiles. The BCSF have been contacted about this as well.
For those who want to donate. I'm not real comfortable taking money from people. I do appreciate the support. In last years group that were fined those guys sent in dispute notices like we did and have not receive hearing dates almost a year later. I think I will wait and see when the hearing dates are and then go from there. One friend that was fined is from Alberta and my other is from Kamloops. So not sure if the hearings will be on the same day or what. Once we know the hearing dates I will talk to my friends and decide if we should post a pay pal etc.
Also I want to let people know that I have posted this on this site in other topics and also other sites as well here is the links for people that want to read all the comments. Sorry for this I just wanted to let as many people know about this as I could. (I think it worked)
http://www.sledrevelstoke.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=649
http://www.snowandmud.com/forum/f4/we-got-nailed-caribou-basin-5576.html
http://snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73180
http://snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73074
Thank you for the support everyone!!!!!
You make good points barefooter. We all need to get organized and join clubs and organizations to help make a stronger voice if we want to keep back country open for snowmobiles. The BCSF have been contacted about this as well.
For those who want to donate. I'm not real comfortable taking money from people. I do appreciate the support. In last years group that were fined those guys sent in dispute notices like we did and have not receive hearing dates almost a year later. I think I will wait and see when the hearing dates are and then go from there. One friend that was fined is from Alberta and my other is from Kamloops. So not sure if the hearings will be on the same day or what. Once we know the hearing dates I will talk to my friends and decide if we should post a pay pal etc.
Also I want to let people know that I have posted this on this site in other topics and also other sites as well here is the links for people that want to read all the comments. Sorry for this I just wanted to let as many people know about this as I could. (I think it worked)
http://www.sledrevelstoke.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=649
http://www.snowandmud.com/forum/f4/we-got-nailed-caribou-basin-5576.html
http://snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73180
http://snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73074
Thank you for the support everyone!!!!!
Guess why you got a ticket?
They had to show the minister what a good job they were doing. Someone on a snowmobile was going to get a ticket that day. Make sure you get all your documents in order now because a year from now no one will remember where the boundaries were. Print out the pages from the website, etc..
Good luck!
Ask the club to make a post here to start collecting on your behalf with funds held by them for your expenses. Have them donate any extra funds to signage to help fix the problem in the future. When I see their post I will chip in $20 too and push others to do so.
Changed the "Minister" to "someone from the Ministry"
I have been asked to edit my original post by the Revelstoke Snowmobile Club, and as well I want to make my story completely accurate. Apparently I have ruffed a few feathers. Our group has come to the conclusion that what was said to us by the Conservation Officer when we ask who was in the helicopter besides the pilot he said "someone from the Ministry of Environment” Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I have been asked to edit my original post by the Revelstoke Snowmobile Club, and as well I want to make my story completely accurate. Apparently I have ruffed a few feathers. Our group has come to the conclusion that what was said to us by the Conservation Officer when we ask who was in the helicopter besides the pilot he said "someone from the Ministry of Environment” Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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