Drewd,
Our numbers are not static. They're declining.
MD.
Our numbers are not static. They're declining.
MD.
Vail Pass fee increase proposal
- Thread starter blurredelevens
- Start date
IMHO, that's not at all unreasonable. We incur more costs than the average sledder. Probably a bureaucratic nightmare, but I'd not be opposed to it.
Ahh, and the signs are out, just got back from VP, about 10" through the day, the signage is up. Bueno.
South facing stuff has a somewhat scary ice layer (groomers in particular), but things are shaping up ok. Machine Gun Ridge is riding pretty darned well, on a sled
.
South facing stuff has a somewhat scary ice layer (groomers in particular), but things are shaping up ok. Machine Gun Ridge is riding pretty darned well, on a sled
.This has been mentioned time and time again. As I believe it would be of a great help for everything. Most of our search and rescue missions involve a skier or cross country skier. They got lost or caught in a storm, injured etc.... 2/3 of all of our snow searches are skiers of some sort
How many of the "snowmobilers" who are allegedly infringing on the hybrid/ski areas are actually hybrid users going back up the hill to catch another run back down?
None of them. There are established up-roads in place, the tracks are in the MIDDLE of the skiing terrain, and sled trenches are MISERABLE on skis - they suck. They set up hard under the snow, they're like giant concrete drainage ditches.
Plus, a significant percentage of the sled-skiers can't ride a snowmobile to save their lives, and the tracks that are irritating me are put in by people who clearly CAN ride - and many of them are not in "transit" locations; giant sidehills across the whole slope, etc.
Occasionally, skiers will parallel the transit roads just off trail to cool sleds off, typically going downhill. No one cares about that. Tandeming two people up anything worth skiing is generally difficult enough that you stay on a groomed path/run in sled trail.
Rhalloran
The issue that many of us have is that the non motorized group continue to grab up more and more land that is not used. They are only interested in taking the land that is easy for them to get to, places they can ride snowmobile to the top of an area and ski down. They create all these wilderness area and they practically go untouched. They use an old logging road to haul in lumber, power supplies, cement trucks, to build a "yurt". In the summer they haul wood in, use a crane to build the structure, bring in supplies, have a gas truck come up and fill up the propane tank. Yet they tell me I can't go within 1/2 mile of it on my snowmobile because I am ruining the experience.
You don't see snowmobile only areas. They have a couple roads that are snowmobile only but that is only because they have a road right next to it that is skier only. Give us real areas to ride in. We don't want groomed trails, we want real terrain. Stop taking land away that my grandfather used to ride on. Stop trying to protect the land, over the snow travel does not hurt the land.
I'm not advocating closing MORE terrain to snowmobiles, I'm after people following the rules that are already in place.
I'm aware of exactly two places in Colorado that have this type of restriction - sleds on established roads to preserve skiing terrain - Vail Pass and Buffalo Pass.
Everywhere else is either motorized ok or not. I'm sure there are other places where sleds have to stay on the groomer - I believe there's some of that outside of Breckenridge, but the "skiing" part is not factored in.
Just so we know where *I* stand on land closure - I would not support CLOSING existing land to snowmobiles/forcing "established routes only." I _would_ support opening currently closed areas to motorized use, for both skiing and sledding.
ALL I'm after with this one is for people to respect the closures that are already in place.
Two reasons - one, sled tracks on ski slopes suck. No two ways about it. The good news is that I can always find good skiing, even at Vail when sleds rode in the closed areas. I'll live, but paying to use the National Forest stings a bit more when part of what I'm paying for (signage to keep sleds out) is not effective.
Secondly, and more importantly, when sledders CLEARLY break the rules in clear view of groups of people who MIGHT ACTUALLY BE anti-snowmobile, it is A) stupid and B) makes snowmobilers look like a bunch of jerks.
Vail Pass Winter Recreation Area has to be the highest concentration of multiple use in the state, as far as over-snow vehicles and human powered. Four? huts are accessible via VP, lots of non-skiers, lots of skiers, lots of sled-skiers, lots of sledders, plus tourists on rentals/tours.
OF ALL THE PLACES we need to be on our best behavior, VP is damned close to the top of the list, if not THE top of the list. The west side of RE is closed to sleds (why is a mystery), but the two lots are separate - the vast majority of XC skiers/snowshoers at RE don't see/interact with the sleds.
Vail, we're all smashed together. Ignoring the rules RIGHT IN FRONT of the very people who might care is stupid. Every single skinner headed out to Fowler or Janets through Wilder gets an eyeful of sled tracks right next to a "no snowmobile" sign. I'm not advocating ignoring the rules, but geez, if you're going to do it, don't do it THERE.
The crossover is growing, too - when I started sled skiing, if we saw another group on sleds with skis/boards, it was unusual. Now, it is about 50/50 - more and more people are figuring out that snowmobiles are great ski lifts, and a LOT of those people are *not* OHV enthusiasts.
IE, they don't care if they have to stay on groomers.
They're not necessarily the enemy, but don't give them reasons to bitch and moan to the FS about it. The anti-sled people would probably see a "groomed road only" mandate as a good compromise; as the number of people who use these things to ski grows, well, yeah - see where that goes?
Now, before anyone tells me to eff-myself, I'M NOT THAT GUY. Forcing us to stay on groomed roads - the skiers who actually use their snowmobiles - would suck. Cats don't go to some of the places we do. I DON'T SUPPORT THAT.
but it is not that far fetched.
The rules that are in place may suck, they may not be right, but they are in place. Breaking the rules is not going to open more terrain. The whole "civil disobedience" thing is horsefeces; civil disobedience is useful in bringing attention to an inequity.
99% of the world does not care about snowmobile access.
I'm aware of exactly two places in Colorado that have this type of restriction - sleds on established roads to preserve skiing terrain - Vail Pass and Buffalo Pass.
Everywhere else is either motorized ok or not. I'm sure there are other places where sleds have to stay on the groomer - I believe there's some of that outside of Breckenridge, but the "skiing" part is not factored in.
Just so we know where *I* stand on land closure - I would not support CLOSING existing land to snowmobiles/forcing "established routes only." I _would_ support opening currently closed areas to motorized use, for both skiing and sledding.
ALL I'm after with this one is for people to respect the closures that are already in place.
Two reasons - one, sled tracks on ski slopes suck. No two ways about it. The good news is that I can always find good skiing, even at Vail when sleds rode in the closed areas. I'll live, but paying to use the National Forest stings a bit more when part of what I'm paying for (signage to keep sleds out) is not effective.
Secondly, and more importantly, when sledders CLEARLY break the rules in clear view of groups of people who MIGHT ACTUALLY BE anti-snowmobile, it is A) stupid and B) makes snowmobilers look like a bunch of jerks.
Vail Pass Winter Recreation Area has to be the highest concentration of multiple use in the state, as far as over-snow vehicles and human powered. Four? huts are accessible via VP, lots of non-skiers, lots of skiers, lots of sled-skiers, lots of sledders, plus tourists on rentals/tours.
OF ALL THE PLACES we need to be on our best behavior, VP is damned close to the top of the list, if not THE top of the list. The west side of RE is closed to sleds (why is a mystery), but the two lots are separate - the vast majority of XC skiers/snowshoers at RE don't see/interact with the sleds.
Vail, we're all smashed together. Ignoring the rules RIGHT IN FRONT of the very people who might care is stupid. Every single skinner headed out to Fowler or Janets through Wilder gets an eyeful of sled tracks right next to a "no snowmobile" sign. I'm not advocating ignoring the rules, but geez, if you're going to do it, don't do it THERE.
The crossover is growing, too - when I started sled skiing, if we saw another group on sleds with skis/boards, it was unusual. Now, it is about 50/50 - more and more people are figuring out that snowmobiles are great ski lifts, and a LOT of those people are *not* OHV enthusiasts.
IE, they don't care if they have to stay on groomers.
They're not necessarily the enemy, but don't give them reasons to bitch and moan to the FS about it. The anti-sled people would probably see a "groomed road only" mandate as a good compromise; as the number of people who use these things to ski grows, well, yeah - see where that goes?
Now, before anyone tells me to eff-myself, I'M NOT THAT GUY. Forcing us to stay on groomed roads - the skiers who actually use their snowmobiles - would suck. Cats don't go to some of the places we do. I DON'T SUPPORT THAT.
but it is not that far fetched.
The rules that are in place may suck, they may not be right, but they are in place. Breaking the rules is not going to open more terrain. The whole "civil disobedience" thing is horsefeces; civil disobedience is useful in bringing attention to an inequity.
99% of the world does not care about snowmobile access.
G
GBCB
Active member
Go "eff" yourself! Now that half the sled traffic is going skiing out of the trailhead it's just not the same anymore. Those wankers don't even rev their engines when they leave the parking lot. How is anyone going to appreciate that stinger can "bark" if I don't rap it out in the parking lot. They sure cant hear it as well when I'm out riding in the wilderness, er, I mean woods.
Grow the sport? Why would I want to grow the sport? Half the threads on here are bitching about the crowded parking lots. Our registrations numbers are down 25 percent in the last ten years and if they drop another 25, well, more room for me! But sled prices will rise, so you say. So what? I'll just finance 20 grand instead of 15. Gotta have the most flickable sled, right? Some skier punk will buy my three year year old sled for 5 grand. What does he care about flickabilty?
Of course the wife might get pissed about the new sled. I mean, we'll probably have to live in the trailer a couple more years. I know she wants that double wide real bad. But forget about her, she's already torqued about me doing the bottom end of the XR on the kitchen table. I don't really need the insurance from her Safeway cashier job anyway. I'll just pay the Obamafine and hope for the best. I mean, who breaks their leg twice?
Yeah, I probably won't miss her. I like it here at the trailer park. I can plug the powerstroke in to the meter pedestal next door and no one even notices. And the manager lets me use his wood splitter for free. Yeah once she's gone, I'm gonna move the gun safe into her closet to make room for the 80" tv in the living room. Nothing like watching a larger than life head explode while playing Assassin's Creed III on the Xbox.
But back to the twig fairies. I don't get how their numbers have doubled in the five years. I mean how fun can those face shots be if your not sitting on a seat and pegging the flapper? How can the hundred of them whispering drown out the five of us shouting? Where do they get the time to attend all those meetings anyway?
Well, there's my 2 cents, gotta go deliver some more propane- catch ya later skaters.
Grow the sport? Why would I want to grow the sport? Half the threads on here are bitching about the crowded parking lots. Our registrations numbers are down 25 percent in the last ten years and if they drop another 25, well, more room for me! But sled prices will rise, so you say. So what? I'll just finance 20 grand instead of 15. Gotta have the most flickable sled, right? Some skier punk will buy my three year year old sled for 5 grand. What does he care about flickabilty?
Of course the wife might get pissed about the new sled. I mean, we'll probably have to live in the trailer a couple more years. I know she wants that double wide real bad. But forget about her, she's already torqued about me doing the bottom end of the XR on the kitchen table. I don't really need the insurance from her Safeway cashier job anyway. I'll just pay the Obamafine and hope for the best. I mean, who breaks their leg twice?
Yeah, I probably won't miss her. I like it here at the trailer park. I can plug the powerstroke in to the meter pedestal next door and no one even notices. And the manager lets me use his wood splitter for free. Yeah once she's gone, I'm gonna move the gun safe into her closet to make room for the 80" tv in the living room. Nothing like watching a larger than life head explode while playing Assassin's Creed III on the Xbox.
But back to the twig fairies. I don't get how their numbers have doubled in the five years. I mean how fun can those face shots be if your not sitting on a seat and pegging the flapper? How can the hundred of them whispering drown out the five of us shouting? Where do they get the time to attend all those meetings anyway?
Well, there's my 2 cents, gotta go deliver some more propane- catch ya later skaters.
Not a politician, but literacy hurts sometimes.
Ok, I got some information for the FS. The good news is that this is on going for the next year or so. It's not going to be implemented this year. Please make comments! Be respectful because the nasty comments will be thrown out. I would focus on the fact that throwing more money at the issues on VP won't simply fix them. The money collected now is not handled well. The parking lots are not plowed well. Snowmobilers already contribute money from the registration of sleds which is distributed by Colorado Sate Parks.
Dillon and Eagle-Holy Cross Ranger Districts propose fee increase at the Vail Pass Winter Recreation Area
Silverthorne, CO (Monday, December 15, 2014) – The Dillon and Eagle-Holy Cross Ranger Districts propose to increase the fee at the Vail Pass Winter Recreation Area (VPWRA) to cover the costs of operation. The fee would be increased to $9 per day and $100 for a season pass. The current fees to use the area are $6 per person per day and $40 for a season pass. This current fee has been in place for over ten years and over time the cost to operate the area has increased with no commensurate increase in revenue. The authority to charge a special recreation permit fee is authorized by the Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act.
The fee revenue provides the following:
· A brochure/ map
· Groomed trails
· Managed parking
· Visitor information
· Forest Service patrols
“This proposed increase in fee revenue would allow for us to continue providing quality service at the Vail Pass Winter Recreation Area,” says Jan Cutts, Dillon District Ranger.
This proposal is supported by the Vail Pass Task Force, a volunteer group that provides oversight of the recreation area.
Feedback is requested on this proposal from users of the winter recreation area. To comment, the public is requested to send an e-mail to wrnf_scoping_comments@fs.fed.us
For additional information, please call the Dillon Ranger District at 970-468-5400
Dillon and Eagle-Holy Cross Ranger Districts propose fee increase at the Vail Pass Winter Recreation Area
Silverthorne, CO (Monday, December 15, 2014) – The Dillon and Eagle-Holy Cross Ranger Districts propose to increase the fee at the Vail Pass Winter Recreation Area (VPWRA) to cover the costs of operation. The fee would be increased to $9 per day and $100 for a season pass. The current fees to use the area are $6 per person per day and $40 for a season pass. This current fee has been in place for over ten years and over time the cost to operate the area has increased with no commensurate increase in revenue. The authority to charge a special recreation permit fee is authorized by the Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act.
The fee revenue provides the following:
· A brochure/ map
· Groomed trails
· Managed parking
· Visitor information
· Forest Service patrols
“This proposed increase in fee revenue would allow for us to continue providing quality service at the Vail Pass Winter Recreation Area,” says Jan Cutts, Dillon District Ranger.
This proposal is supported by the Vail Pass Task Force, a volunteer group that provides oversight of the recreation area.
Feedback is requested on this proposal from users of the winter recreation area. To comment, the public is requested to send an e-mail to wrnf_scoping_comments@fs.fed.us
For additional information, please call the Dillon Ranger District at 970-468-5400
Thank you, AndrettiDog - that's helpful.
S
stingray719
Well-known member
I try to avoid Vail Pass because of the hybrid snowboarder/skier issues. Seems that those hybrid users wanting conflict go to Vail Pass because I do not see the confrontations I do at Vail when riding other places. Might just be me though........
C
capulin overdrive
Well-known member
So CSA grooms the trails, and does the work.
And the Vail Pass Task Force provides the oversight!
So darn much skiing in the I-70 corridor, that robbing away sled terrain is beyond pathetic.
Loveland pass, Berthoud, East Vail, resorts, resort side country, etc., etc., and a gazillion acres of wilderness.
Sorry rhalloran, I get wanting to sled ski. But the VP hybrid is a crock of poo!
And the Vail Pass Task Force provides the oversight!
So darn much skiing in the I-70 corridor, that robbing away sled terrain is beyond pathetic.
Loveland pass, Berthoud, East Vail, resorts, resort side country, etc., etc., and a gazillion acres of wilderness.
Sorry rhalloran, I get wanting to sled ski. But the VP hybrid is a crock of poo!
Funny how many of you guys avoid Vail Pass because you think it is crowded or the skiers are too much. Fine with me but I rarely see anyone there once we get past the parking area and Shrine Road. Amazing terrain when you get back there.
I guess I don't get the fee structure. Daily is rising 50% from $6 to $9. Annual is going up 120%. Seems like they really want people to pay the daily fee and not get a pass. Structure the pass at $80 and daily at $9.
I guess I don't get the fee structure. Daily is rising 50% from $6 to $9. Annual is going up 120%. Seems like they really want people to pay the daily fee and not get a pass. Structure the pass at $80 and daily at $9.
C
capulin overdrive
Well-known member
Funny how many of you guys avoid Vail Pass because you think it is crowded or the skiers are too much. Fine with me but I rarely see anyone there once we get past the parking area and Shrine Road. Amazing terrain when you get back there.
I guess I don't get the fee structure. Daily is rising 50% from $6 to $9. Annual is going up 120%. Seems like they really want people to pay the daily fee and not get a pass. Structure the pass at $80 and daily at $9.
Shhhh, don't tell anybody!
I like VP, I-70 not so much.
If I ride there, i'll access from Redcliff side, or come from the south.
So CSA grooms the trails, and does the work.
And the Vail Pass Task Force provides the oversight!
So darn much skiing in the I-70 corridor, that robbing away sled terrain is beyond pathetic.
Loveland pass, Berthoud, East Vail, resorts, resort side country, etc., etc., and a gazillion acres of wilderness.
Sorry rhalloran, I get wanting to sled ski. But the VP hybrid is a crock of poo!
The funds come from Colorado State Parks. These funds are mostly from us registering our sleds. CSA administers the funds by assisting state parks in determining which clubs and entities (Vail Task Force is not a club) get in terms of funds. Then the clubs or Vail Task Force grooms the trails. Funds for buying the groomers also comes from these sources. The people at Colorado State parks do a great job of looking out for the snowmobile world. So, snowmobilers contribute by registering sleds (I have no sympathy for those who don't register their sleds). But what do the skiers do to contribute to this cause?
