TRA settups...attn clutch guru's

[winter brew]

I have no issues with eating belts, performance, track speed etc...But there is still one thing about the TRA that I would like to improve upon and want input from anyone that has found a cure (or a way to minimize) the RPM variation in different snow conditions and terrain. I have a 800R 159 that runs VERY good, but they are a peaky engine....run under 8100 and you missing out, over 8400 and you are too high. I find with just about any settup that I have to run 2 clicker setings lower on the flats (or firmer snow) than I do when climbing or in the deep. I am VERY picky on my clutching and always want peak performance so I find myself playing with clickers 2-3 times/ride as I go from road to the play areas.
Has anyone found a good mountain settup that shows consistant RPM in a variety of conditions?
And yes, my TRA`7 is in good shape...it's not the clutch itself, just the classis TRA behavior.....is there a cure besides a P-85 or quick clickers??

 

[cableguy]

call DJ, his stuff works real good,

 

[fatguy1]

call DJ, his stuff works real good,

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I had the same thing happening on my new XP... From what I've heard and read Joes kit really helps this out, so I bought one and installed it but haven't had it to the mountains yet to put it to the test.... For now I'd have to agree with cableguy. Phone up Joe!

 

[canucklehead]

I agree 100%

I have no issues with eating belts, performance, track speed etc...But there is still one thing about the TRA that I would like to improve upon and want input from anyone that has found a cure (or a way to minimize) the RPM variation in different snow conditions and terrain. I have a 800R 159 that runs VERY good, but they are a peaky engine....run under 8100 and you missing out, over 8400 and you are too high. I find with just about any settup that I have to run 2 clicker setings lower on the flats (or firmer snow) than I do when climbing or in the deep. I am VERY picky on my clutching and always want peak performance so I find myself playing with clickers 2-3 times/ride as I go from road to the play areas.
Has anyone found a good mountain settup that shows consistant RPM in a variety of conditions?
And yes, my TRA`7 is in good shape...it's not the clutch itself, just the classis TRA behavior.....is there a cure besides a P-85 or quick clickers??

I just came back to doo after 4 years on a big bore kingcat and I must say they are very sensitive to load. I have the dj kit and it is a nice improvement over stock. I am still dialing it but I can be nuts on 8150 in a windblown area or crossing another track(s) (low load)and then hit some really deep heavy stuff and drop 400 rpm. It's not the helix because it does backshift, it seems the motor just doesn't have the torque. So clicker up so you are back in the powerband and then when you hook up or the load lessens you are bouncing off of the rev limiter. Kind of easy for me to notice this coming down in hp.

 

[winter brew]

Yes, very load sensitive. One thing I have observed is an identical sled with a RKT head seems to be a little more consistant. Perhaps the added midrange power from the head helps the peaky "R" hold RPM a bit better when under a load. ??
I am still trying different things every weekend, some settups are a little more consistant but give up some of the low end snap.
I have considered a helix from Joe....but I also enjoy the tuning and the knowledge gained from trying different things.

 

[ghost rider]

clutching

Check your compression, make sure it is 125 plus. Doo is de-tuning sleds due to many engine replacements in 07 and 08. Some sleds come with 130 and some like mine came with 115. It has good bottom and mid but falls off at top on hard pulls. I changed my head to a 145 compression and problem solved it doesn't even waver 100 rpm. I also went with a 44/40 helix and it makes a big difference over 42/42.
Rule of thumb if your sled can get to desired rpm but can't hold it is the helix. If the sled won't make it to desired rpm it is weights in primary.
Hope this helps

 

[BoneStock 600]

dj clutch kit?

There sure is a lot of people who praise this DJ clutch kit? I just dont see what everyone like so much about the kit? I was not impressed with the kit I purchased. It just seem like there are alot of sheep here... If one person does it the next does it. The setup I had worked ok on hardpack but suffered in deep snow or even elevation. I agree on the steepness of the helix. Joe and I talked about his setup but never got it resolved. Hopefully he does have an improvement from when the time I had his kit. I just dont like hearing people talking about motors drafting rpm and blaming it on the motors. Clutching is where it is at.

 

[plumnuts]

I going with a set of quick clickers.. dial them up when up high.. and crank them back down for the ride home..

 

[WMD]

I have been testing, here are the results.

I just installed DJs kit.

07 XRS 151, Cutlers can, intake improvements, 125 compression, running a 20top gear, powdermax track.

I cleaned the hell out of the clutches, in addition to the new primary spring and pin/weight kit that DJ sends I replaced the rollers as well. The buttons were good and moved free. I started out with the new pins with 1/4 inch weights ( about 15.3 grams ). Started out on click 4. Sanded the clutch sheaves to ensure good grip. I went and rode it for three days, here is what I found:

- Elevation 5500 - 9000

- On hard pack it reved like mad, get it in the deep and it dropped like a rock down to like 7800. Track speed 36 - 38. Not acceptable for a $300 + clutch kit.

- So, I clicked to 5 and got Rs up to 8000 - 8200 and track speed of 38 - 40.
That is a little better but very inconsistant and would not hold rock solid like I want it to. Back on the hard pack and it reved to 8600.

I went home and removed the weight from the pins and rode it the next day.

- Started out on click 4 and it would rev hard on the hard snow and drop to 8000 in the deep. I clicked to 5 and it would rev between 8000 and 8200 with an occasional drop to 7900. Track speed was about 40 - 42.

I used new belts, tried the old 166 and the race 288. No real difference that I could feel or see on the tach. Clutch heat was still VERY HOT. In three days of riding I did start to make threads on the 166, I ran that belt most of the time because it is harder compound and I think it holds up to the heat better. I was still getting black marks on the primary.

If you are not getting full rpms the clutches are NOT fully shifted out. You have to get 8200 - 8400 to get the clutches fully shifted. I did mark the sheaves to see where the belt was running. If you are not running correct rpms you will have lots of heat and belt life will be short.

I am so f'ing frustrated trying to make this sled run, When it works it works good but it is a tempermental SOB. I thought that the DJs kit would be the answer to this RPM problem but I am going to have to call him and see what we can figure out.

Any other sugestions boys? I am out of ideas.

 

[WMD]

Have to agree with bonestock 600. I am not happy with DJs kit right now and if it will not perform as advertised I will ask for my money back. $300 + dollars for a helix and a spring is a lot of money if it doesn't work.

Just my opinion.

 

[Original Tetonice]

Sensative to load is a good thing imo from a tuning point of view. The only internal area of the TRA that needs attention and concern while your riding is your clutch heat, heat can eat up your TRA's performance. The only internal part needing concern and the workhorse of the TRA is the spring. I've mentioned the importance of a springs ability to provide consistant shifting at the rate the spring is designed tp perform without having the spring fading due to the internal heat and stress on the spring. A good quality spring helps maintain consistant shift and pinch of the belt.

The rubber belt is also a big issue a belts ability to maintain it tolerance and compond structure as clutch heat persist effects clutch performance in almost every deep powder rider. Swap your belt with a fresh belt at mid-dayand watch your RPM hold.

As i've said the TRA persistant heat effects what are imo the 2 key operating componants of the TRA. Once the clutch heat has "heat soaked" the tolerance spring and in many cases the belt as well, consistant clutch performance is lost.

Running an aftermarket head or cheater or porting or pipes or lightweight cans 99.9% of the time have nothing to do with clutching. And if it does it's typically just an adjustment in pinweight to dial in the rpm.

You know your clutch performance is in trouble and starting to fade when you start adjusting your clickers in search of clutch performace.

OT

 

[ghost rider]

clutching

I just installed DJs kit.

07 XRS 151, Cutlers can, intake improvements, 125 compression, running a 20top gear, powdermax track.

I cleaned the hell out of the clutches, in addition to the new primary spring and pin/weight kit that DJ sends I replaced the rollers as well. The buttons were good and moved free. I started out with the new pins with 1/4 inch weights ( about 15.3 grams ). Started out on click 4. Sanded the clutch sheaves to ensure good grip. I went and rode it for three days, here is what I found:

- Elevation 5500 - 9000

- On hard pack it reved like mad, get it in the deep and it dropped like a rock down to like 7800. Track speed 36 - 38. Not acceptable for a $300 + clutch kit.

- So, I clicked to 5 and got Rs up to 8000 - 8200 and track speed of 38 - 40.
That is a little better but very inconsistant and would not hold rock solid like I want it to. Back on the hard pack and it reved to 8600.

I went home and removed the weight from the pins and rode it the next day.

- Started out on click 4 and it would rev hard on the hard snow and drop to 8000 in the deep. I clicked to 5 and it would rev between 8000 and 8200 with an occasional drop to 7900. Track speed was about 40 - 42.

I used new belts, tried the old 166 and the race 288. No real difference that I could feel or see on the tach. Clutch heat was still VERY HOT. In three days of riding I did start to make threads on the 166, I ran that belt most of the time because it is harder compound and I think it holds up to the heat better. I was still getting black marks on the primary.

If you are not getting full rpms the clutches are NOT fully shifted out. You have to get 8200 - 8400 to get the clutches fully shifted. I did mark the sheaves to see where the belt was running. If you are not running correct rpms you will have lots of heat and belt life will be short.

I am so f'ing frustrated trying to make this sled run, When it works it works good but it is a tempermental SOB. I thought that the DJs kit would be the answer to this RPM problem but I am going to have to call him and see what we can figure out.

Any other sugestions boys? I am out of ideas.

You should have told me you were wanting a DJ's clutch kit i would of sold it to you half price. Just kidding but no joke my didn't work either.
My set up for my 07 151.
Secondary spring is stock
Helix 44/40
Primary spring- 160/320
Primary ramps 433's
Primary weights 17 grams
I ride 7,000 ft to 11,000 ft, at 7000 run clicker 1 or 2 and at 11000 run 3 maybe 4 on a heavy snow day. Track speed up steep hills until turn out 43-45 mph track speed. I would try this set up. Little to no clutch heat.

 

[Skidooer]

You should have told me you were wanting a DJ's clutch kit i would of sold it to you half price. Just kidding but no joke my didn't work either.
My set up for my 07 151.
Secondary spring is stock
Helix 44/40
Primary spring- 160/320
Primary ramps 433's
Primary weights 17 grams
I ride 7,000 ft to 11,000 ft, at 7000 run clicker 1 or 2 and at 11000 run 3 maybe 4 on a heavy snow day. Track speed up steep hills until turn out 43-45 mph track speed. I would try this set up. Little to no clutch heat.

I am using this set up ghost rider suggests. It works very good. It is like my sled gained 40HP over stock set up. Fast spool up on track speed too. I love it!

08 XP 800 154" X
Stock Helix and spring in secondary
160/290 Spring
19.7 grams - tried higher & lower but 19.7 is the number for me
433 Ramps
19/45 gears
7K-9K feet clicker 2
9K+ or heavy load Clicker 3 or 4.

You don't even have to buy the kit from DJ.

 

[badass1000]

I put a dj kit in my 154xp last week. Riding for a few days last week/weekend. Sled goes to rev limiter on the trail. on clicker 4 with 15.3grams weight and riding 6-8,000'. runs about right at 8200-8300 in the deep on the hill. running a new 377 belt with only half days ride on the old set up. Had dealer check alignment and cleaned all internal components when apart. Clutch still gets very very hot. After a real long rip wide open in the powder it seems like water will almost steam when it hits it.
Putting a vent kit on it soon and maybee add more weight to 15.9.
Quick clickers are a must on this sled.
Doos just doo not seem to hold consistant rpms in general. My m7 with racin station m8 and racin station clutching will hold pretty much exact rpm all the time. I rode it a bit this last weekend with the stock pipe and can. I was told to run it about 7850 rpm. It was always between 7820 and 7870. I change the clickers on my xp usually once or twice a day. That is with not caring that it goes to redline on the trail (feathering the throttle on the trail) and just paying attention to full throttle on the hill in the deep.

 

[blksumit]

I have no issues with eating belts, performance, track speed etc...But there is still one thing about the TRA that I would like to improve upon and want input from anyone that has found a cure (or a way to minimize) the RPM variation in different snow conditions and terrain. I have a 800R 159 that runs VERY good, but they are a peaky engine....run under 8100 and you missing out, over 8400 and you are too high. I find with just about any settup that I have to run 2 clicker setings lower on the flats (or firmer snow) than I do when climbing or in the deep. I am VERY picky on my clutching and always want peak performance so I find myself playing with clickers 2-3 times/ride as I go from road to the play areas.
Has anyone found a good mountain settup that shows consistant RPM in a variety of conditions?
And yes, my TRA`7 is in good shape...it's not the clutch itself, just the classis TRA behavior.....is there a cure besides a P-85 or quick clickers??

winter brew,
I would not consider myself a "guru", but here are some of my thoughts on this. I ride at 9500-11,500ft., the problem seems more pronounced at higher elevations. Also seems more pronounced with a Team sec. I would expect this because of the Team's sensitivity to load. IMHO I believe this is related to tip weight. The more tip weight, the larger the rpm drop. I am thinking seriously about Thunder Shift arms and load the base with weight to get the shift force and run a light tip weight to help prevent what I call "overshift". You are familiar with Cat and Poo clutches, what happens when you run a lot of tip weight? Something to think about!

I have also given thought to a P-85 but rumors of broken cranks have shelved that idea for now. Also, some reputable builders claim the Doo motor will shake the P-85 apart.

BTW, I ran an RK Tek drop-in kit, specifically to see if it's a hp issue, NO change at all!!!

I hope this may have helped a little,

Dave

 

[winter brew]

I pulled my primary apart last night (as I do almost every week) and it looks like the "new" updated '07 rollers are still junk. One of the bushings was worn almost all the way through after 400 miles. The rollers havn't flatspotted and looked fine 2 weeks ago . Back to the aftermarket rollers for me! This was not my RPM issue but certainly isn't helping. I am now going to play with the 1mm oversize rollers I have and get another set of stock size rollers...but NOT from Doo.
Thanks for the feedback, looks like I'm not the only one fighting this. But I am still VERY happy with the sled and the performance, playing with the clickers is not a big deal.

 

[LRD]

winter brew,
I would not consider myself a "guru", but here are some of my thoughts on this. I ride at 9500-11,500ft., the problem seems more pronounced at higher elevations. Also seems more pronounced with a Team sec. I would expect this because of the Team's sensitivity to load. IMHO I believe this is related to tip weight. The more tip weight, the larger the rpm drop. I am thinking seriously about Thunder Shift arms and load the base with weight to get the shift force and run a light tip weight to help prevent what I call "overshift". You are familiar with Cat and Poo clutches, what happens when you run a lot of tip weight? Something to think about!

I have also given thought to a P-85 but rumors of broken cranks have shelved that idea for now. Also, some reputable builders claim the Doo motor will shake the P-85 apart.

BTW, I ran an RK Tek drop-in kit, specifically to see if it's a hp issue, NO change at all!!!

I hope this may have helped a little,

Dave

You may be on the right track. Heard the real performance gain to be had with the doo clutching from somebody who tunes on the mtn and with chassis dyno, said he could get any sec to work good (Team, Hyperlite, doo, Cat, Paragon) but where he really found a performance increase was with the Thunder shift Arms and weighting the base rather than the tips.

Good Luck

 

[canucklehead]

good points

winter brew,
I would not consider myself a "guru", but here are some of my thoughts on this. I ride at 9500-11,500ft., the problem seems more pronounced at higher elevations. Also seems more pronounced with a Team sec. I would expect this because of the Team's sensitivity to load. IMHO I believe this is related to tip weight. The more tip weight, the larger the rpm drop. I am thinking seriously about Thunder Shift arms and load the base with weight to get the shift force and run a light tip weight to help prevent what I call "overshift". You are familiar with Cat and Poo clutches, what happens when you run a lot of tip weight? Something to think about!

I have also given thought to a P-85 but rumors of broken cranks have shelved that idea for now. Also, some reputable builders claim the Doo motor will shake the P-85 apart.

BTW, I ran an RK Tek drop-in kit, specifically to see if it's a hp issue, NO change at all!!!

I hope this may have helped a little,

Dave

Some good points there. On my bigbore cat the clutching was ten times better with tip-light weights, great backshift. But I remember back on the mod zx's we would put ti arms in them and run a lot of pin weight and that was the killer setup. The guys who seem to be happy also seem to be running quite a bit of pin weight. What do these 433 ramps look like?

Edit: Forgot to say that after about 500km my arms were pretty sticky and one of the rollers is toast.

 

[Original Tetonice]

HeavyHitter Arms or Flyweights are excellent tuning tools. I prefer the 28.1 arms with 17g's of pin weight, 1st hole 2g's, 2nd hole 7g's and 414 ramps along with a Renton Ti Spring has been an outstanding combo so far regardless of which helix 46/42 or 44/42 or 44/40.... It's all in how you pinch the belt and manage the TRA's heat imo. Choosing the correct componants will play a key roll in consistant TRA performance. Being able to reduce the TRA's heat by as much as 40% helps a ton.

 

[baD-MAX]

The 433 ramps came stock in my 05 1000. Should be easy to find used sets since alot of people changed to the 414 ramps that came with the "Hi-Alt" kit from doo. The 433's have a little taller start then a deeper belly to a much steeper finish(compared to 414's). They are similar to the 414's just more radical changes in the slopes. The 415's are very flat through the start and mid but finish the same as the 414's. I think the steep angle of finish on the 433's is what is allowing some to use more weight with less spring finish. JMHO


...MAX