I need to do a school project and am doing it on propane sleds. I need to know from you guys what it takes to convert a sled to run on propane, what the cost is, what the benefits are, how clean it is, what kind of fuel economy you get, and so on... Thanks alot!! -Mike
Tell me about propane powered sleds
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Extreme-One
Well-known member
The person to talk to would be Brad Story or Val Simmons... they are the two the are sparking everyone's interest. I'm guessing that it's specific to 4 strokes and I know they are doing it for the benefits of running it with a turbo. Brad gets on here from time to time and he'd answer your questions.
thats who I was thinking of, thanks guys
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Pilsner
New member
The idea behind using propane as a performance fuel is because of the high octane it is, I think 114. It is also a gas at -30"C, which makes it better than gas which needs to be atomized. You can run higher cylinder pressures (boost) and more ignition advance ( resist deto). Propane burns hotter making it good for turbo applications, heat makes turbos spin. That's all I can think of off the top of my head, I'm sure there is plenty more. There are also some downfalls, such as propane cylinder weight, extra parts: lock off, vaporizer, mixer etc.
Hope this helps.
Hope this helps.
In the late 60's early 70's Muscle cars where running high octane gas with lead to run cooler and to lubricate the valves and to avoid pinging (detonation) due to the fact that some of those cars were running 11:1 compression from the factory. If you look at some old owners manuals from that time they tell you to run a minimum of 91 octane which is todays premium.
I had a customer with a 67 427 super sport impala. in the mid 70's they had it converted to propane like lots of other people due to the fact that propane could handle high compression engines without detonation. They lost a piston to pre-ignition (detonation) In 1975 The EPA started making cars with Catalytic Converters and lead destroys them, so they stopped making gas with lead for a number of reasons and lowered the octane rating. thats were Propane conversions came in so popular.
I had a 68 Ford wagon with a 390 when I was 16 that would ping like crazy. the higher octane, lower the flash point. 100 octane fuel takes longer to burn than it does 91, 100 octane fuel will handle higher compression with out pre-igniting. You need the plug to tell it when it ignite, and with high compression engines running 91 or lower octane fuel, the fuel charge will ignite before the plug ignites it, just like a disel engine ignites fuel without the use of plugs, and that is what the knocking noise is that you hear in a diesel, the fuel pre-igniting.
As for clean burning, they say it is, but I didn't see it. I did state emissions testing for 14 years and every propane powered vehicle would come in running rich, and when you leaned it out it would misfire which raises emsissions. But it would handle high compression engines. So if it burns cleaner but uses, example: twice the fuel, is it cleaner??
Now they got Oxygenated fuel in California which is basically methanol (Alcohol) I ran a 360 sprint car on alcohol. you have to double the jet sizes in an alcohol car, but it could handle 14:1 compression ratio without pre-ignition, but it won't pass a gas station!! it would take 20 gallons of fuel to run a 30 lap main event. your sleds warn you about oxygenated fuels. if you use them, you are running your sled leaner.
so when you see a leaf on the side of the fender of a Ford, or it says "flex fuel car" the fuel goes thru a sensor that tells the computer what percentage of methanol is in the mix (those sensors run $600, I know) the computer will make the injector pulse longer and advance/retard the timing to compenate for the fuel. On a flex fuel car you can run up to 85% methanol, but you will get considerably less miles per gallon than regular gas, so is that cleaner?
I say your best bet for high comprssion engines is good ol fashioned high octane 110-114 race gas. good luck on your report if you read this far!!
I had a customer with a 67 427 super sport impala. in the mid 70's they had it converted to propane like lots of other people due to the fact that propane could handle high compression engines without detonation. They lost a piston to pre-ignition (detonation) In 1975 The EPA started making cars with Catalytic Converters and lead destroys them, so they stopped making gas with lead for a number of reasons and lowered the octane rating. thats were Propane conversions came in so popular.
I had a 68 Ford wagon with a 390 when I was 16 that would ping like crazy. the higher octane, lower the flash point. 100 octane fuel takes longer to burn than it does 91, 100 octane fuel will handle higher compression with out pre-igniting. You need the plug to tell it when it ignite, and with high compression engines running 91 or lower octane fuel, the fuel charge will ignite before the plug ignites it, just like a disel engine ignites fuel without the use of plugs, and that is what the knocking noise is that you hear in a diesel, the fuel pre-igniting.
As for clean burning, they say it is, but I didn't see it. I did state emissions testing for 14 years and every propane powered vehicle would come in running rich, and when you leaned it out it would misfire which raises emsissions. But it would handle high compression engines. So if it burns cleaner but uses, example: twice the fuel, is it cleaner??
Now they got Oxygenated fuel in California which is basically methanol (Alcohol) I ran a 360 sprint car on alcohol. you have to double the jet sizes in an alcohol car, but it could handle 14:1 compression ratio without pre-ignition, but it won't pass a gas station!! it would take 20 gallons of fuel to run a 30 lap main event. your sleds warn you about oxygenated fuels. if you use them, you are running your sled leaner.
so when you see a leaf on the side of the fender of a Ford, or it says "flex fuel car" the fuel goes thru a sensor that tells the computer what percentage of methanol is in the mix (those sensors run $600, I know) the computer will make the injector pulse longer and advance/retard the timing to compenate for the fuel. On a flex fuel car you can run up to 85% methanol, but you will get considerably less miles per gallon than regular gas, so is that cleaner?
I say your best bet for high comprssion engines is good ol fashioned high octane 110-114 race gas. good luck on your report if you read this far!!
P
product tester
Well-known member
yes propane powered engines with out boost are dogs but with boost in my opion are better than gas leaded or not.
An issue in a snow mag this last fall had a right up on propane sleds. Dont remember which mag it was but it talked about the simmon/story project. Couple of linky's below on propane sleds.
http://www.simmonsski.com/
http://www.snowmobile.ca/mha_internal/article.php?sid=431
http://www.simmonsski.com/
http://www.snowmobile.ca/mha_internal/article.php?sid=431
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Pilsner
New member
Converting a gas engine to propane will loose HP, because the engine was designed to run on lower octane gas. If you were to build the engine to run on propane, higher compression, different ignition timing and curve, it would be comparable in power and maybe slightly higher.
Or you could just press the "EASY" button
I thought he was talking about nitrous since he seemed to be well educated on the topic? Or was is sasquatch?
"that was easy"!
