CHA-CHING! $$$$$$$$$$$$$
SnoWest Project Trailer 2015: Building a "MORE" perfect trailer.
- Thread starter christopher
- Start date
CHA-CHING! $$$$$$$$$$$$$
Chris, as for the insulation on most trailers the factories do a sub par job at it. They use the basic standard sheets of insulation and do a crappy job when it comes to corners and cutting around plug outlets and anywhere technical. I've seen a couple trailers that had been blow over in the wind here in wind free alberta that had to be torn apart and seen the crap insulation attempts. It would amaze you how many gaps were there. On my last custom trailer I had the walls made out of 1.5" tubing and used 1.5" insulation and personally cut and put the insulation in. I used a product called rumber on my floor and put electric in floor heating in. didn't turn out so great. but I've heard of a couple guys who used wabasto heaters(used in semi trucks) and run in floor with liquid and seemed to have great results.
At the end of the day the bottom line us that the walls are THIN.
No matter what the insulating material us, if you only have half an inch, or maybe 3/4s of an inch, your just not going to have great insulation. What we need are thicker walls that have more dead air space in them.
BUT..
Thicker walls mean narrower inside dimensions, and even with an 8.5" wide trailer there were times when the skis of 2 sleds were pressed right up against each other. There just isn't a lot of leftover room to play with. For me, I am going to try and resolve the problem in the other direction. Accepting the fact that I really can't insulate the trailer much better, I will try and see if ere isn't a way to inject MORE HEAT into it instead.
No matter what the insulating material us, if you only have half an inch, or maybe 3/4s of an inch, your just not going to have great insulation. What we need are thicker walls that have more dead air space in them.
BUT..
Thicker walls mean narrower inside dimensions, and even with an 8.5" wide trailer there were times when the skis of 2 sleds were pressed right up against each other. There just isn't a lot of leftover room to play with. For me, I am going to try and resolve the problem in the other direction. Accepting the fact that I really can't insulate the trailer much better, I will try and see if ere isn't a way to inject MORE HEAT into it instead.
Christopher,
The suburban thermostats work very well... I have one in my Airstream.
Common problem.
The reason your thermostat is not working is because it it not getting an accurate reading of the ambient temp you want....
Instead, it is reading the temp of the wall... which, as you have noted above... looses heat....
The temp of the wall fluctuates greatly when the heat kicks in or winds blow outside.
Just sayin.
You need to isolate the thermostat so that it only reads your desired ambient.
A plastic pad, made from foamed PVC, mounted to a cabinet side would work very well. It is isolated from the cabinet side by the foamed PVC,
which is 90˚ to the outside wall....separated from the wall temp fluctuations.
The Webasto heaters do work very well...but are diesel fired and can have fuel storage issues or fuel-gelling.
The suburban thermostats work very well... I have one in my Airstream.
Common problem.
The reason your thermostat is not working is because it it not getting an accurate reading of the ambient temp you want....
Instead, it is reading the temp of the wall... which, as you have noted above... looses heat....
The temp of the wall fluctuates greatly when the heat kicks in or winds blow outside.
Just sayin.
You need to isolate the thermostat so that it only reads your desired ambient.
A plastic pad, made from foamed PVC, mounted to a cabinet side would work very well. It is isolated from the cabinet side by the foamed PVC,
which is 90˚ to the outside wall....separated from the wall temp fluctuations.
The Webasto heaters do work very well...but are diesel fired and can have fuel storage issues or fuel-gelling.
2. Heater Thermometer
For the most part it was really little more than an ON-OFF switch.
When it was cold, you wanted the heater ON pretty much all the time.
The trailer, even with insulation, really isn't able to retain much heat when the heater goes off, so I am not sure the thermometer ever really turned "off" the heater during the winter.
Message sent to Mirage
Thermometer really didn't work very well, the slide didn't want to hold any particular temperature setting on the low side.
It was basically either ON high or off.
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If you wanted the ULTIMATE heating system for your More-Perfect trailer.
A propane fired compact liquid heater with VIEGA CLIMATE PANELS would be the way to go.
Heat from the ground up... super efficient.
I know it is a dream system... But I've installed it in small boats though.
.
A propane fired compact liquid heater with VIEGA CLIMATE PANELS would be the way to go.
Heat from the ground up... super efficient.
I know it is a dream system... But I've installed it in small boats though.
.
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Out of my league for a sled trailer.
I hear ya...Doesn't hurt to dream though.
You may want to ask if Mirage can set you up with Icynene Insulation... Spray in... and low loss... affordable too... made a huge difference in heat/cool of the airstream we put it in. Another benefit is that it actually increases the strength of the trailer.
Keeps air loss to a minimum.
I used the ProSeal MD-C-200 v3.... R7/1"
.
You may want to ask if Mirage can set you up with Icynene Insulation... Spray in... and low loss... affordable too... made a huge difference in heat/cool of the airstream we put it in. Another benefit is that it actually increases the strength of the trailer.
Keeps air loss to a minimum.
I used the ProSeal MD-C-200 v3.... R7/1"
.
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for a t-stat i put a decent programmable home unit it. works so much better. nice thing about it; you can program it to come on to say 60deg around 3:00 if you think you'll be back to the truck around 3:30 or 4. then when you get there crank it up to 70 and it will only take a few minutes to get up to temp.
i wired all of my accessories to a nice disconnect, that way you can easily turn everything off to make sure that you dont have a drain on the battery.
also going to install a solar panel. its in the garage but i havent got my mounting figured out yet, and havent had time.
https://www.renogy-store.com/100W-Mono-p/rng-100d.htm with a charge controller.
one thing ive really been pondering:
what about a flat nose bumper pull trailer???? have a front side door like on a GN. that way when you're cramming things like rzr's insdise you can use all of the trailer. its a PIA!!!!! to fit (3) rzr's in my 30' but if it was a flat nose it would be much easier. theres a good 30" of unusable space in the nose. ive thought about selling mine and ordering one like that; its just such a PIA to sell/buy/install accessories inside
i wired all of my accessories to a nice disconnect, that way you can easily turn everything off to make sure that you dont have a drain on the battery.
also going to install a solar panel. its in the garage but i havent got my mounting figured out yet, and havent had time.
https://www.renogy-store.com/100W-Mono-p/rng-100d.htm with a charge controller.
one thing ive really been pondering:
what about a flat nose bumper pull trailer???? have a front side door like on a GN. that way when you're cramming things like rzr's insdise you can use all of the trailer. its a PIA!!!!! to fit (3) rzr's in my 30' but if it was a flat nose it would be much easier. theres a good 30" of unusable space in the nose. ive thought about selling mine and ordering one like that; its just such a PIA to sell/buy/install accessories inside
LOVE the idea about the upgraded programable Thermostat.
How sweet would it be to come back to a warm trailer after a long day on the mountain in sub 0 temps!!
While it has better usable space inside, it sure doesn't tow as nice as a V-Nose does!
5. Ice Melter
In the first trailer Mirage installed a "prototype" ice melter between the end of the trailer and the begining of the rear fold down ramp. The idea was that it would catch the snow coming off of the sled preventing buildup that turns to compressed ICE everytime the rear door is closed. In concept its a great idea. In practice it just couldn't develop enough heat running on DC power to get the job done.
However, if this was converted over to AC, then I think we might have a real WINNER here..
Message sent to Mirage.
The rear ice melter did absolutely nothing as far as we could tell.
It was a great idea, but it just filled up with ice and stayed full for the entire trip each time.
Needs to be AC powered.
In the first trailer Mirage installed a "prototype" ice melter between the end of the trailer and the begining of the rear fold down ramp. The idea was that it would catch the snow coming off of the sled preventing buildup that turns to compressed ICE everytime the rear door is closed. In concept its a great idea. In practice it just couldn't develop enough heat running on DC power to get the job done.
However, if this was converted over to AC, then I think we might have a real WINNER here..
Message sent to Mirage.
The rear ice melter did absolutely nothing as far as we could tell.
It was a great idea, but it just filled up with ice and stayed full for the entire trip each time.
Needs to be AC powered.
6. E-Track Mounting
The E-Track did NOT work out as I had expected.
#1.
Was VERY hard to find SHORT e-track attachment straps.
Everything out there is set up for commercial use.
Finding 12-24 inch straps was a challenge.
#2.
The sled tracks spun on top of the e-tracks badly!.
I utterly failed to appreciate that these SMOOTH metal surfaces would greatly reduce the amount of track friction on the floor.
Add water and ice and sometimes the sleds would just sit and spin.
#3.
With the next trailer I will NOT ask Mirage to install them again.
If I was going to use it again, I would WALL mount it.
#4.
My plan for the next trailer will be to install Supertrax Superclamps instead
The E-Track did NOT work out as I had expected.
#1.
Was VERY hard to find SHORT e-track attachment straps.
Everything out there is set up for commercial use.
Finding 12-24 inch straps was a challenge.
#2.
The sled tracks spun on top of the e-tracks badly!.
I utterly failed to appreciate that these SMOOTH metal surfaces would greatly reduce the amount of track friction on the floor.
Add water and ice and sometimes the sleds would just sit and spin.
#3.
With the next trailer I will NOT ask Mirage to install them again.
If I was going to use it again, I would WALL mount it.
#4.
My plan for the next trailer will be to install Supertrax Superclamps instead
7. Center Floor Tie Downs
The trailer came with two very different floor mounted tie down points.
2 in the middle that were surface mounted.
2 at each end that were flush mounted.
Of them I GREATLY preferred the flush mounted ones, and will ask Mirage to install ONLY those throughout the entire trailer.
They were just SO MUCH BEEFIER!
Message sent to Mirage.
There were two different styles of floor mounted tie downs in the trailer. The deep set tie downs in the front and rear of the trailer worked great. The surface mounted ones in the middle, not so much.
The trailer came with two very different floor mounted tie down points.
2 in the middle that were surface mounted.
2 at each end that were flush mounted.
Of them I GREATLY preferred the flush mounted ones, and will ask Mirage to install ONLY those throughout the entire trailer.
They were just SO MUCH BEEFIER!
Message sent to Mirage.
There were two different styles of floor mounted tie downs in the trailer. The deep set tie downs in the front and rear of the trailer worked great. The surface mounted ones in the middle, not so much.
Small rubber mallet to knock the ice off of the sleds before loading them in the trailer is a massive help to prevent lots of ice inside. We also keep a broom in the trailer to sweep it out.
I like this for a tie down track and I leave several of the rings in different spots for my tiedowns and "traction"
http://www.towrax.com/product.phtml?p=25&cat_key=7
These rings work well with the super clamps also.
http://www.towrax.com/product.phtml?p=23&cat_key=7
I like this for a tie down track and I leave several of the rings in different spots for my tiedowns and "traction"
http://www.towrax.com/product.phtml?p=25&cat_key=7
These rings work well with the super clamps also.
http://www.towrax.com/product.phtml?p=23&cat_key=7
I remember looking at that last year and wondering HOW you make sure it doesn't get filled with ICE and rendered unusable?
I think he's committed to using the topper on his bed.
4. Better Stereo
My Number one user comment
Without a doubt, one of the most FUN features of the trailer was the sound system. Who would have thought that playing some tunes before and after the ride would be SO DANG NICE. Talk about setting the "Tone" for the day's ride. The inside speakers rocked the trailer all winter long, and come Spring the outside speaker picked up the slack and lit up all the area around the trailer for lakeside parties. Absolutely LOVED having sound!
BUT.
There were some serious shortfalls on the road to acoustic nirvana..
1. This is a LOOONG trailer.
With a pair of speakers in the front and a pair in the rear, the middle had a huge difference in volume that either of the ends. Trailer needs at least 6 speakers inside of it to cover all the square footage.
2. As much as it needed "more" speakers" I think it needed BETTER speakers as well. My last job was manufacturing performance lake boats, and sound systems was one of the things all of my customers DEMANDED, as tunes on the lake were an absolute necessity. So I have a little background in wet environment sound systems. This trailer needs some upgrade marine 3 way speakers. That would hugely change the overall quality of the sound. BUT, the skin/walls of the trailer, even with being insulated are VERY thin. So I am not sure there is a way to mount a cone based speaker IN the ceiling. My guess is that we will need to hang the speakers in enclosures and let them be exposed in some manner.
3. Because we are dealing with a trailer, the inside is SUPER reflective. There is just nothing to deaden the sound waves from bouncing off every hard flat surface. With that in mind I felt that 1-2 small subs, mounted inside of the cabinets in the very front and very rear of the trailer would add a tremendous amount of "quality" to the over all sound.
4. The trailer came with an acceptable stereo head unit, but it was nothing to write home about. I would like to seriously upgrade this to something MUCH more cutting edge and feature rich. At the very least we desperately needed a multichannel head so we could isolate the inside sound from the outside sound.
Message sent to Mirage
a. 6 speakers instead of 4
b. High quality speakers and a sub woofer
c. Couple 3 way speakers
d. Better head unit
So the stereo was a mixed blessing.
We LOVED having music in the trailer, made the trailer user experience MUCH more fun! We didn't love the way it sounded.
With the speakers in the front and the rear the sound dispersion was very poor. Very loud in front and rear, kinda dead in the middle There needs to be a 3rd set of speakers in the MIDDLE of the trailer to balance out the sound from front to rear.
The speakers in the trailer sound "Tinny", they are shallow and without a well rounded sound. What would be REALLY nice are some higher quality 3-way marine speakers. (and I fully understand the size limitations you are working with in the ceiling mounted speakers)
One thought we had was to add a small sub woofer inside of one of the storage cabinets at the front and rear of the trailer to overcome the shallow speakers mounted inside the roof.
If we can't mount better larger speakers because of depth limitations, then perhaps a small 6-8" woofer mounted in the cabinet facing down would do the trick.?
We also needed a 2 channel speaker control so that the Inside Speakers could be isolated from the Outside speakers. Channel A and channel B. Lots of times we want to crank up the OUTSIDE speakers, which made it impossible to be inside the trailer.
Likewise, better outside speakers would be Greatly Appreciated by the crowd. People absolutely LOVED having sound on the outside of the trailer! Who would have guessed how nice that was.
In general we found the head unit to be less than desirable.
Would really prefer to have a better overall unit to work with.
Found it a real pain to use the Blue Tooth link as that was THE primary way we brought sound into the trailer. Would just like something a little nicer, more modern, better looking and more user (technology) friendly in general.
JL Audio marine speakers are really nice and sound awesome.
I am going to be hanging the speakers and subs on the roof of my trailer. Unfortunately I bought infinite baffle subs, which require a lot of volume and weigh a lot( probably 100lbs for 2 speakers and a sub in a box). I might sell them and get the subs below.
If you aren't dead set on marine speakers, JL Audio makes subs that only need .50 cu ft of volume. JL Audio 10TW3-D4
Then you won't be losing too much head clearance or cabinet space.
Marine head units have dual zones, which you might find handy.
The issue was the 100% humidity.
We had some SERIOUS water inside the trailer after several days of sledding.
We had some SERIOUS water inside the trailer after several days of sledding.
Makes sense.
All I know is I love the stability of a goose. Only time you look back to see what the trailer is doing is if your checking for tires.
Looking forward to another interesting build!
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