Service for citizenship

[duffman]

Why not require some amount of service in the armed forces to secure citizenship, more specifically the right to vote? I have been doing a lot of reading the last few months, given what is going on in the country right now. I have only seen one comment on this as a possible solution. The more I ponder it, the more sense it makes to me. I am curious what this group thinks, as there are some very good critical thinkers here.

My libertarian streak makes me cringe a little bit at the thought of the state requiring much of anything, but vigilance is the price of liberty and there have been far too many good people sit by and watch our liberties erode.

Bring on the arguments, I am prepared to defend my position!





P.S. Happy veterans day and a big for our service members here.

 

[Wolfrun]

I whole heartedly agree. Being in the service forges a bond, not only with your comrades but with your country.

 

[POLZIN]

I guess you didnt hear you no longer have to EARN anything in this country!

 

[Ollie]

I don't think that would work.
Not because it is a bad idea, but think of the logistics.
If we required everyone aged 18 to serve 2 years (like they do in isreal), we don't have enough supplies to do it.
There are MILLIONS that would be in at any given time.
Add to that if you require people to serve, you will have a lot people that resent it and you will be creating the very people you want to avoid.

One of the problems with living in the land of the free is you really do have to put up with people who take things for granted. Liberty being a big one.

What we need is to re-establish the pledge of allegance in the schools, we need to actually teach childeren that america isn't evil and out to destroy the world.

and for god's sake do away with political correctness. If someone is fat, it's ok to tell them they are fat, they are NOT weight challenged.
If you think someone is stupid, it's ok to tell them their stupid (trust me, quite a few people on here have said this to me).
Nowhere in the bill of rights does it say you have the right to NEVER be affended.
Nowhere in the bill of rights or the consititution does it garantee you life, liberty and happyness. Those things have to be earned and protected.

 

[Sturgis Sledder]

I wouldn't want half of those scumbags in my military. BUT people should have to show a FILED tax return AND proof of citizenship before being allowed to vote .

 

[Wade]

The right to vote, is constitutional, at least from a modern perspective. And, I agree with that.

Welfare isn't anywhere in the Constitution.

My solution, if you want Welfare, you must give up the right to vote. It would be a small token to pay, for making yourself dependent upon the providers. If you can't be responsible to stay off Welfare, most of your life, you probably aren't responsible enough to select your leaders.

You need to do everything you can, to insentivise people to better themselves.

If your working, self sufficent, or served, you should be allowed to vote. Workers pay taxes, and therebye support the Military. There's also other ways to serve your country, besides the military. Most of them, I probably would have a hard time with though.

 

[previous member]

As far as the "right to vote" goes I think something that could be accomplished and should be accomplished in addition to being a citizen would be for the voter to have to pass an English and and Intelligence TEST............You don't pass you can't vote.

I remember I had to pass a Civics Test in the 8th Grade or I would have flunked. I'll bet there are many voters in this country that could not pass that test.

These tests that I am talking about would have to be given in English and only English.

 

[Ollie]

The right to vote, is constitutional, at least from a modern perspective. And, I agree with that.

Welfare isn't anywhere in the Constitution.

My solution, if you want Welfare, you must give up the right to vote. It would be a small token to pay, for making yourself dependent upon the providers. If you can't be responsible to stay off Welfare, most of your life, you probably aren't responsible enough to select your leaders.

You need to do everything you can, to insentivise people to better themselves.

If your working, self sufficent, or served, you should be allowed to vote. Workers pay taxes, and therebye support the Military. There's also other ways to serve your country, besides the military. Most of them, I probably would have a hard time with though.

I really don't have that big of a problem with welfare.
Once in a while people just need a hand.
Take the wife that never worked but stayed home and supported her husband and kids in the home. She finds herself devorced with zero skills.

This is one area where I agree with bill clinton. He put in place a 2 year lifetime limit on welfare. Too bad that was overturned.

However, if you recieve welfare you should have to work for the state or be in school learning a trade (not college, trade school).

Stop the cycle of generation after generation scamming the system and living on welfare their whole lives.

Oh, one other thing. You should have to repay the state the money you recieved during your stay on welfare.
Maybe as little as 50 dollars a month, but pay it back non-the-less.

 

[shortstop20]

I don't think that would work.
Not because it is a bad idea, but think of the logistics.
If we required everyone aged 18 to serve 2 years (like they do in isreal), we don't have enough supplies to do it.
There are MILLIONS that would be in at any given time.
Add to that if you require people to serve, you will have a lot people that resent it and you will be creating the very people you want to avoid.

One of the problems with living in the land of the free is you really do have to put up with people who take things for granted. Liberty being a big one.

What we need is to re-establish the pledge of allegance in the schools, we need to actually teach childeren that america isn't evil and out to destroy the world.

and for god's sake do away with political correctness. If someone is fat, it's ok to tell them they are fat, they are NOT weight challenged.
If you think someone is stupid, it's ok to tell them their stupid (trust me, quite a few people on here have said this to me).
Nowhere in the bill of rights does it say you have the right to NEVER be affended.
Nowhere in the bill of rights or the consititution does it garantee you life, liberty and happyness. Those things have to be earned and protected.

X2.

 

[Wade]

I really don't have that big of a problem with welfare.
Once in a while people just need a hand.
Take the wife that never worked but stayed home and supported her husband and kids in the home. She finds herself devorced with zero skills.

This is one area where I agree with bill clinton. He put in place a 2 year lifetime limit on welfare. Too bad that was overturned.

However, if you recieve welfare you should have to work for the state or be in school learning a trade (not college, trade school).

Stop the cycle of generation after generation scamming the system and living on welfare their whole lives.

Oh, one other thing. You should have to repay the state the money you recieved during your stay on welfare.
Maybe as little as 50 dollars a month, but pay it back non-the-less.

Sure, that's exactly what I'm thinking. Unemployment isn't welfare to me, unless your milking it. Getting a divorce, and going on public assistance shouldn't be a crime. But, being on welfare for 5 years, for no good reason, should cost you your rights. Even the unskilled, can learn a skill in 5 years. I'm targeting the generational welfare person.

I'm all for giving people a hand up. But, not an open ended hand out.

I don't even care if they pay the money back. It would just be another excuse to not start working. I just want people to quit the welfare cycle.

Actually, even though I hated Clinton, he did a couple good things for women, when he was in office. He made it a requirement to give the names of the father(s), before getting your welfare. He also created a cap on the number of children you could profit from, and made it easier to get fixed.

 

[tech a]

The thing with Clinton and the welfare reform is that he didn't support any of it until the polls showed a huge percentage of Americans were for it...he was
not a fool and knew how to take credit for things the republican congress
did....politics as usual....

Even in the left-leaning european countries service in mandatory...evern if it
was not all in the military it would be a good think, we could use help in many
domestic areas (forestry, general maint/clean up of public areas) helping in nursing homes/hospitals....no reason people could not do this before college...

Who know's, it might even instill some work ethic in our youth (something I
think is missing) not all of them, but, you all know a bunch of them that would sit around and play guitar hero forever if they could......

 

[ruffryder]

Even in the left-leaning european countries service in mandatory...evern if it
was not all in the military it would be a good think, we could use help in many
domestic areas (forestry, general maint/clean up of public areas) helping in nursing homes/hospitals....no reason people could not do this before college...

Who know's, it might even instill some work ethic in our youth (something I
think is missing) not all of them, but, you all know a bunch of them that would sit around and play guitar hero forever if they could......

I like this idea a lot. If not military service, then some other service should be required.

 

[searcher11]

Maybe I am dating myself here, but in the Vietnam ERA I served with many foreign
national who were indeed serving in the military for the ability to get their American
citizenship. Some made it some didn't. It boils down to how much they REALLY WANTED CITIZENSHIP. Same **** different era now though. Most illegals just want a fr&*&kin free ride from U.S. and our governing leaders want that also. especially the mex votes.

 

[mngoat]

Wasn't this part of the movie Starship Troopers?

Didn't they have to serve to become citizens? Maybe not

 

[Wade]

Wasn't this part of the movie Starship Troopers?

Didn't they have to serve to become citizens? Maybe not

Yha, World Citizens. I really don't care to be a UN citizen.

 

[knightkrawler00]

I have a hard time agreeing with any kind of service for citizenship program. While this may not be true tomorrow, today this is still the Land of the Free. Where people are supposed to be able to live their lives in the way that it suits them while allowing others to do the same. It's also the Home of the Brave, where the Brave may choose to serve in the military to protect the right of the Free and the Brave to make their own choice. I never served in the military, came very close, but did not go. Does that make me a second class citizen? I work hard, pay taxes, help others when they need it, and try to be good person. I love my country and would stand to defend it, if the need arose. I've known a few ex-military that could care less about their country, are they first class citizens?

 

[Wade]

I have a hard time agreeing with any kind of service for citizenship program. While this may not be true tomorrow, today this is still the Land of the Free. Where people are supposed to be able to live their lives in the way that it suits them while allowing others to do the same. It's also the Home of the Brave, where the Brave may choose to serve in the military to protect the right of the Free and the Brave to make their own choice. I never served in the military, came very close, but did not go. Does that make me a second class citizen? I work hard, pay taxes, help others when they need it, and try to be good person. I love my country and would stand to defend it, if the need arose. I've known a few ex-military that could care less about their country, are they first class citizens?

Yha, I kinda agree. I like my approach a little better, which is, if you leech off others, you loose some right. Criminals, dope addicts, welfare lifer, ect, you loose rights. Being a contributor, is important to me. A contributor, is someone cleaning bathrooms up to the CEO.

 

[Polar Express]

First of all, I would like to thank the Veterans for their service. It doesn't need to be Nov 11, to appreciate my freedoms. I've tried to vocalize my gratitude more frequently as well.

I'm 35, and for the last couple years, I have developed a strong regret that I did not serve in our military. Today, I serve our country here, at home, as a fireman, and I certainly feel good about that. But, it's different, and I still wish I had served in the military.

At work, I go to many homes of low-income or no-income folks. To many, 9-1-1 is 'primary health care'. We go to car wrecks, with folks with no license (or insurance) won't speak English (don't know for sure if they can), but they are driving! All they get is a ticket. If they won't speak English, and won't produce proof of citizenship, they should get deported. NOW!

My FIL served in the military for 15 years, until a RIF booted him out. They are a very right-winged conservative family, and yet they have no health insurance, they rely on DSHS. I don't get it.

Private ambulance companies are in business to make a profit. I understand that. So are a LOT of hospitals. You know why our bills are so high? Because they don't collect on 1/2 to 2/3 of the bills they send. So the rest of us pick up the tab.

Service for citizenship is a great concept. But I don't know if it would work. If we started some sort of federal work group, where you worked for a period of time (say... 2-5 years or so) to gain full citizenship, after demonstrating working knowledge of the language of the land (English) I kinda like that idea. How would the labor unions like that? They'd hate it! They would either try to unionize this 'federal work group', and when/if that was blocked, they'd try to dismantle it, 'cuz it's taking away American jobs'. Unions have their place, but they have their problems as well. As a whole, I don't like them. Just like Gov't, they have gotten too big. The problem is, that our younger generations don't have a work ethic. I look around at some of my slack-o peers, and I can't believe they tie their shoes in the morning! And I'm 35! And THEY have KIDS!

Call me old fashioned, but I don't believe jobs are the answer. I really believe business ownership is. Folks didn't found America for a 'job', they wanted to control their own destiny, the only way to do that is to be your own boss. Jobs have their place, and we need people that want to do these jobs. But our country is suffering from a serious lack of ambition.

As a society, we have dropped the ball with educating our youth. Part of the reason they don't care, is they don't understand. We've stopped teaching our history in our schools. That 8th grade Abominable Snowman had to pass wasn't there when I was in school. My wife's sisters (in 6-11 grades) don't have to take (much less pass) one. It's sad.

Ok, my scattered thoughts have run out for the evening. I have to get up early to WORK. So, it's off to bed.

Thanks again to those who have served, continue to serve, and will serve. Please know that after all my ranting, I am proud to be an American, and I am grateful to all those who put themselves in harms way for me. Armed forces, CG, police and fire, thanks.

PE

 

[duffman]

I don't think that would work.
Not because it is a bad idea, but think of the logistics.
If we required everyone aged 18 to serve 2 years (like they do in isreal), we don't have enough supplies to do it.
There are MILLIONS that would be in at any given time.
Add to that if you require people to serve, you will have a lot people that resent it and you will be creating the very people you want to avoid.

One of the problems with living in the land of the free is you really do have to put up with people who take things for granted. Liberty being a big one.

What we need is to re-establish the pledge of allegance in the schools, we need to actually teach childeren that america isn't evil and out to destroy the world.

and for god's sake do away with political correctness. If someone is fat, it's ok to tell them they are fat, they are NOT weight challenged.
If you think someone is stupid, it's ok to tell them their stupid (trust me, quite a few people on here have said this to me).
Nowhere in the bill of rights does it say you have the right to NEVER be affended.
Nowhere in the bill of rights or the consititution does it garantee you life, liberty and happyness. Those things have to be earned and protected.

First off I agree that P.C is a huge problem. In my opinion it was the reason for the Fort Hood tragedy.

People would not have to serve to live here, just to earn the right to vote. The same apathetic people that do not make an informed vote would not bother to serve, they do not respect their right to vote anyway.

This is just a thought exercise, there is no way we could get something like this implimented in todays political arena. However, as great of a job as the founders did, it was not perfect as the country is moving in a direction that they tried very hard to prevent. Granted, the constitution as written has been distorted by the very people put in place to protect it (the judiciary). Maybe the root question at hand is why/how this has happened? As citizens, we need to understand.

I did read Starship Troopers years ago, but I have been thinking more about Israel and their high percentage of citizens that serve in the military.

 

[CatWoman]

There are certainly cases where welfare is needed, and good examples given. I too have seen the abuses firsthand. We have some neighbors who live quite well off of the system. One thing I've thought of, is that these folks that milk the system, they ought to be the ones who HAVE to show up for jury duty. Choosing from registered voters is only encouraging people not to register so they don't have to worry about this.

Getting notices where they say having a job isn't a good reason to be excused, yet they don't reimburse the lost wages folks NEED to get by. So why not just pull from the list of welfare recipients? They aren't working, and being paid not to work, so let them work it off by serving on juries.

Hot topic in our home, the hubby and I have been summoned many times in the past two years, and he recently got a notice from Federal court. You drive all that way, not knowing whether you are coming back, staying for a few days to weeks, and lose a paycheck along with that (and to be able to be there on time early in the morn, you need to go the night before and stay, unless you drive all night). If you're not picked, they don't reimburse for anything. If you are picked, then you can choose a motel you pay for, for discounted rate (barely), get mileage reimbursement, and I believe it's a whopping $25 for the day.

I'm not against serving on a jury, I just find it very narrow sighted in this day and age that having a job isn't considered important. The last time I went in, there was a guy there who was scheduled for some major heart stuff that same morning, yet when he called in he was told he couldn't be excused and still had to go. Thankfully the judge was level headed enough and let him go, but the last thing he needed was more stress on top of the heart issues he already had going on.

Ok......that was my rant for the day!