Rescuers to recover bodies of snowmobilers killed in avalanche near Golden, BC

[James T Kirk]

Wow, I have to say I strongly disagree with that statement.

I took AST 1 classroom and field sessions in 2007 from Zacs Tracs. I then assisted Zacs Tracs during one of their AST 1 field sessions in 2009. A few months ago I took Zacs Tracs new AST 1.5 course. Based on what I've learned from Lori during these courses, I feel I ride extremely safe. I don't need AST 2 to help avoid the mistakes others are making, and frankyly I don't think anyone needs AST 2 to do the same. I don't dig pits. I let the folks that contribute to www.avalanche.ca dig the pits and analyze the snowpack and then I follow their updates daily. From that, I decide where and how I'm going to ride. Regardless of any of this, I don't hit slopes like the one in this thread and I don't sit at the bottom like a dummy, so chances of me getting caught in something like this are very slim.

Good Luck, you sound exactly like the "dangerous" guy I mentioned earlier. You can never learn enough about snowpack. Look at some of the people who have been killed in slides in the last 15 years, Alex Lowe, probably the greatest climber ever, Jack Hannan and Trevor Peterson, two of the greatest ski mountaineers ever, those 3 guys had forgotten more about snow science them most will ever know, they they still went out in slides.

Dig your own pits and look at the snow for yourself!!! The avy reports on avalanche.ca cover VERY large areas and conditions can vary greatly from one place to another. avalanche.ca has very good information and is a very good resource, but it is only giving you the "big picture". That information is ment to be suplimented by your own snowpack tests/analysis. Do you really want to trust your life to information on the internet about a snow pit that was dug 20km from where you are riding?

 

[Flange]

I get what you are saying but based on the terrain I ride, I really don't think its a big help. I travel 40-60 km a day, how many snow pits do you think would required? How many snow pits would you dig on a slope like the one in this thread before you would feel confident enough to hit it? Me, not nearly enough of them, thus I just stay off them completely. Its a decision that I've chosen to make and feel good about. I still think 90% of these fatalities could/would be eliminated if everyone had AST1 one. You seem to disagree and think we actually get more dangerous with this training. I still don't understand or agree with that.

 

[James T Kirk]

People dont get more dangerous with training , they get more dangerous with complacency. Someone with a level 1 who realises that they only have introductory level training and choose terrain as such, which sounds like how you describe yourself, is in a good place. The danger is the guy who takes the level 1 and thinks he can take on anything. My whole point from the begining is that todays machines will let you take on terrain and snowpack that is way beyond most peoples training levels and beyond the comfort zone of even experienced mountain guides, and you can get on that terrain very quickly.

If you really want to know what that new turbo can do, you had better know your snowpack at a level much higher then an AST 1.

 

[Flange]

I agree when you put it that way.

 

[Leaf27]

there's already 2 threads on this, and this is the one we're having a discussion in.

I had nothing to say until scardeycat posted this


i was waiting for the bull**** comments to come from the so called experts and it didnt take long

global calgary news interviewed dr louis francescutti who called snowmobilers rednecks and said we shouldnt be allowed to do what we do


I'm not going to let a post in denial of what happened just sit without rebuttal.
And then you come on talking about "bashing" other sledders...
What purpose is that serving? Us PREACHERS are trying to figure out how to get this crap to STOP.

YOU go start another thread & post up a bunch of happy thoughts, prayers, wishes, vibes, and blow them some butterfly kisses while you're at it. That'll help a TON. I promise I won't come over there & hassle you. (can't speak for flange though... that guy is just a jerk from what I hear)

Yup, I agree 100%. This discussion might help this from happening to another Family. Need to hear the truth even if it hurts.

 

[somefear]

Wow, I have to say I strongly disagree with that statement.

I took AST 1 classroom and field sessions in 2007 from Zacs Tracs. I then assisted Zacs Tracs during one of their AST 1 field sessions in 2009. A few months ago I took Zacs Tracs new AST 1.5 course. Based on what I've learned from Lori during these courses, I feel I ride extremely safe. I don't need AST 2 to help avoid the mistakes others are making, and frankyly I don't think anyone needs AST 2 to do the same. I don't dig pits. I let the folks that contribute to www.avalanche.ca dig the pits and analyze the snowpack and then I follow their updates daily. From that, I decide where and how I'm going to ride. Regardless of any of this, I don't hit slopes like the one in this thread and I don't sit at the bottom like a dummy, so chances of me getting caught in something like this are very slim.

I took the AST 1 course with Zacs Tracs last winter, and it really did open my eyes up to so much. In fact my hubby and I felt so strongly about avy training, we made sure our 13 yr old son took it too.

Lori is an awesome teacher, I can't say enough good things about her, and her style of teaching.

As for snowpits....we dig them every time we go out. We don't have accurate CAC forecasts for our area, so it's up to us to make sure that we can ride safely. We usually submit our findings to the CAC, which, in turn helps others.

This avy in Golden is just another example of peeps heading to the mountains and not having a clue. That mountain face gives me the goosebumps just looking at it. To have a multiple burial situation on a hill like that, obviously they had never taken any avy training!

My next goal is to take the AST 2 course, one can never be too complacent or have too much knowledge when heading out there. I just hopes peeps start wising up to this fact, and get proper training!!

 

[K45]

Originally Posted by K45
Please trust that these men knew their sport and the "rules" of the back-country well.

Hey Backcountry, that was the mother of the surviving son & wife of the fallen father that said that - She lost love ones - directly commenting about lost love ones is BULL**** !

Like I said make your posts leaving hurt full comments directly aimed at their lost loved ones out. Reference the different avalanches that have happened and what could have should have been done - way more helpfull and not hurtfull to family members of the lost

I just feel you *** clowns are going about your crusade all wrong.
We all want to live at the end of the day - Ride safe.

 

[Trashy]

Originally Posted by K45
Please trust that these men knew their sport and the "rules" of the back-country well.

Hey Backcountry, that was the mother of the surviving son & wife of the fallen father that said that - She lost love ones - directly commenting about lost love ones is BULL**** !

Like I said make your posts leaving hurt full comments directly aimed at their lost loved ones out. Reference the different avalanches that have happened and what could have should have been done - way more helpfull and not hurtfull to family members of the lost

I just feel you *** clowns are going about your crusade all wrong.
We all want to live at the end of the day - Ride safe.

Calling them (or me?) ***clowns doesn't do much to help get your point across.

I cannot speak for them, but I can say that I really do feel for the families who have lost loved ones.

However there are some facts here that simply cannot be ignored.

Mistakes were made. I am human and have made them too. We need to learn from them. There simply is no argument against this.

I don't know backcountry, nor have I ever ridden with him, but I do agree with the points he (and others here) are trying to make. I doubt he intentionally wants to hurt anyone's feelings, but I share his frustrations in the way people can be a little passive about anything that can -and will- kill you.

Arguing wether the fallen sledders made the right decisions won't bring them back. But I think (I hope???) most of us can accept that mistakes were made.

There really is only one point to be made here..... LEARN FROM THIS! Buy a book, take a course, teach a fellow sledder, set a good example... I hate to say it, but if an avalanche doesn't scare you a LOT something is really wrong.

There is no way to be nice about it. Sorry.

 

[←snow∞motion→]

Kaleb is so outspoken because he has experienced the fear that comes from being in a slide first hand.

I hope to never even come close to being near a slide, much less in it, but I will tell you that the thought scares the living crap out of me.

I hate to think of the last moments of those poor souls, but I take the experience of Kaleb who knows EXACTLY what it feels like, and accept the advice he and others have to give me.

It may be perceived as abrasive or un-caring, but unfortunately this is something that can't be sugar coated or coddled, it is way too important.

My thoughts and prayers go out to the families, but these events help us to learn from mistakes that have been made to help others assess risks better in the future, to hopefully prevent further losses.

 

[Leaf27]

My condolences to the families. I will never park anywhere close to an Avi run off. Every time I here of an accident I get even more sensitive to potential risks in the backcountry.

 

[Hardass]

So when you dig your SNOW PIT at the bottom of the hill is it the same conditions as up higher on the hill? at any given spot the conditions are different aren't they?I'm curious about this I have seen the pit digging and then seen people climb 1,000 feet up the mountian. No one dug a pit up there? or even part way up. How does that work?

 

[backcountryislife]

So when you dig your SNOW PIT at the bottom of the hill is it the same conditions as up higher on the hill? at any given spot the conditions are different aren't they?I'm curious about this I have seen the pit digging and then seen people climb 1,000 feet up the mountian. No one dug a pit up there? or even part way up. How does that work?

I dig few pits, but use test slopes a lot.

When I dug pits more often, I'd dig a pit on an aspect we were going to spend a lot of time on, so that I had an IDEA of what it would be like above. Wind load, temp, and angle will obviously change the snowpack even on a very similar slope, but it gives you a starting point.

Now I try to find small aspects that are indicitive of the bigger ones, and try to get them to go. Often I'll get a little guy to slide, and that gives you a pretty good idea that above will be as bad or usually in our case worse.

This is one common test spot for me, to the left on the same wall is a much larger face with nowhere to go, but this wall offers easy escape, a change in angle which gives a better idea what will be tender between N facing & NE facing, and is easy to go check after. This shot was riding back up to take a look & climbing up to check the crown, it's not from being caught in it. (the hangfire is less than it looks, there's minimal snow above)

This one is about as big a "test slope" as I'll use, but it gives people a real good idea what's going on in the snowpack, whereas a pit is much more difficult to quantify. on a tester, you can do a quick flat run, then sidehill a bit, then hammer on it a bit... it give people a good visual.

Pits are good too, but I really feel they're a very ineffective tool for the way that sledders travel.

 

[Flange]

So when you dig your SNOW PIT at the bottom of the hill is it the same conditions as up higher on the hill? at any given spot the conditions are different aren't they?I'm curious about this I have seen the pit digging and then seen people climb 1,000 feet up the mountian. No one dug a pit up there? or even part way up. How does that work?

You make a great point. You have no way of knowing how the snowpack changes. I also agree (again ) with backcountryislife, sledders just simply travel to far for pits to be an effective tool.