Radiant heat, best way to supply hot water for it?

[Wheel House Motorsports]

Getting very close to putting heating system in my new shop apt setup and have some questions,

I am doing hydronic radiant floor heat both upstairs and in the slab in the shop below and was curious on opinions on the best way to provide hot water for it.


I am basically battling between, tank or tankless and electric vs propane, I will be setup with a large propane tank on site regardless for other things, so thats not a concern.

school me on the subject! im more than open to any thoughts right now. It is a 24x32' footpring both upstairs and down.

 

[beard]

try a hot spring.....worked good for me, and cheap.


http://www.bchotspringproperties.com/

 

[m8braaaap]

I have central boilers on my place.best advice if you go my route is sharpen your chainsaw and buy a splitter,backhoe and sleep well!!!!

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

yeah, been down that route with a wood furnace driving it all and it was nice, just hard, takes a lot of time to generate enough wood. works well when remodeling as you burn all the scraps, but you still have to have a backup. and i cant afford to setup both right now.

 

[smwizzz]

Combo...

There are many units available these days. If it was me and I had the money to spend up front, I would go a combination of solar over gas/electric back up. The solar unit mounts on the roof and they come in various sizes. We did an install on a 55,000 BTU unit. The panel on the top circulates glycol into an exchanger in a stainless steel boiler that also uses a gas burner or electric element as a back up system. These units are very efficient these days and work in pretty low light conditions.

A real cool advantage with this type of system, especially for a home is you can heat your hot water that you use in your sink, shower etc. You can run a fan coil unit with optional gas or electric heat back up that could be your back up instead of running a more expensive boiler with a gas / electric back up which gives you air circulation and you can install an evaporator coil for A/C. The cool thing is if you couple all of the above with an evaporator coil, in the right environment you can run a heat pump that uses geothermal energy to heat or cool your home also.

I know that some of this does not apply as well to most work shops but the fan coil setup can be used for A/C and also a fast heat recovery like a unit heater when you open a door in cold weather.

Something else to consider if you have access to used oil would be a recycled oil furnace/unit heater.

Just some thoughts....

 

[LoudHandle]

You are far enough south to benefit from the solar angle. I'm far enough north and surrounded by mountains so we are shaded even when we get some sun. Additionally our average of 35 feet of snow would render it useless in the winter when we need it most. I went with a Harman wood pellet boiler and Toyotomi Oil Miser 180 for back up.

From memory your electric is very cheap being mostly Hydroelectric, but weigh which is cheaper per BTU. I am no expert, just an armchair engineer of my own systems after talking with co-workers and others who have done similar projects, as well as internet research. Your temperature output will depend on how you choose to install the tubing, under subfloor, in the floor, poured into slab, etc. So you will likely need to set the temp high enough for your desired hot water use and use mixing valves to temper the circulating water for the various installation types and flooring choice in the apt. I think I would lean towards an on demand for best efficiency but you will need to run some heat calcs. to get it sized correctly.

 

[Jaynelson]

I don't know the exact particulars BUT....

My friend recently built a new house, and he had a high-efficiency gas boiler that ran all his radiant, and his hot water for the rest of the house. I am not HVAC savvy, but it had some type of "switching station" that decided where to send the heat. I liked the idea of something doing double duty.

 

[Blu Du]

if your going gas boiler, the best on the market is the presteige triangle tube. if you have off peak power out there it will most likely be the cheapest route to go and look for a thermolec boiler

 

[catnfool]

yep, the triangle tube is nice, EXCEPT, I didn't have the $4000 to spend while I was building my house. I will get an outdoor wood boiler when I can afford it, but for now I have a 50 gal electric(didn't have a big propane tank) water heater. I think it was around $300 and this is the 3rd year on it. It has a little trouble keeping up with the slab-30x40 in my daylight basement, but I used staple up on my main floor, and it has NO trouble running you out of there!!
The guy selling the $4g boiler said the water heater wouldnt work; must have been too cheap
This is for a 30x40 daylight basement log home with a half loft. My budget bill on electricity is $200 a month. Sure there are better ways, but this works for me. bruce

 

[m8magicandmystery]

Go with a viessmann condensing wall hung gas boiler under 100,000 btu should do ya..

They are compact and the smart boiler will do 4 gases without any orifice change or adjustment and go with their vitocell for all the hot water storage needs for domestic supplied from the wall hung boiler. The vitocell as well can be equipt with a solar coil if you ever go solar.

Its very easy to just have the takeoffs done ahead for very little cost for future solar if you decide and Viessman offer all the solar options as well.

When you do the runs of your heating loops we do reducing circular patterns in each zone in the concrete 16 inches apart and then when dead in center we back out to have our 8 inch spacing that way the zone is suppy/return/supply/ return/ instead of the back and forth which gives you supply through half the zone and cool return through the other half of the same zone...and we limit our runs to approx. 250 ft. and of course thermostacically control the zones that are installed in the partitions required which will be extra important on your upstairs apt.

If your upstairs is floor trusses we run in a sixteen wide up /down/up/in the same truss space then thru the other to what ever is require to use a separate loop or loops for each room to be controlled individual as the same if in floor if your upstair floor is poured.

You also have the option of rads upstairs..there are some nice ones..and heated towel racks etc but radiant works best....

Plan it well,no need for lines under cupboards etc as you potatoes etc hate the heat..haha..stay 6 inches in on finished walls and 12 inches from toilet wax rings and 16 inches in on doors to the outside.
Use rehau oxy barrier 1/2 to your main manifold stations and them are feed by your boiler by 3/4 or 1 inch...use rehau or zurn manifolds and make darn sure that when you energize your system at the beginning even if you are using a glycol mix that the WATER PORTION is put through a media mix similar to a water softener but different...lol..it prevents reactions.....

Your dealing with 93 percent efficiency with Viessman...

http://www.viessmann.us/en/Residential/Products.html

 

[Blk88GT]

Being as I have no natural gas service where I am and overland tanks are not common, I opted for electric. I'm heating 2000sqft of floor space with 12-15' ceilings.

I'm using a 20kw unit which is overkill, but I like it that way

 

[smwizzz]

Good info!!!

Seems there is some good info here!!! FYI, Hot water tanks are not approved in all areas for use in a boiler application such as radiant water heating in floor. They do work, I know lots of people over the years that have used them. Check your local codes.

I like the in floor systems but they offer no air movement. This means, circulation/stratification, filtration, humidification/de-humidification and cooling. It is a vital part of an HVAC system. Both compliment the other. There are other options to provide this but if you are in the midst of putting the system together an extra zone to provide for a future fan coil is worth the couple $$$. You don't even need the zone valve yet.

For those who hate shoveling the sidewalk... put a zone in your driveway!!! lol.

 

[aebsledder]

good info

Go with a viessmann condensing wall hung gas boiler under 100,000 btu should do ya..

They are compact and the smart boiler will do 4 gases without any orifice change or adjustment and go with their vitocell for all the hot water storage needs for domestic supplied from the wall hung boiler. The vitocell as well can be equipt with a solar coil if you ever go solar.

Its very easy to just have the takeoffs done ahead for very little cost for future solar if you decide and Viessman offer all the solar options as well.

When you do the runs of your heating loops we do reducing circular patterns in each zone in the concrete 16 inches apart and then when dead in center we back out to have our 8 inch spacing that way the zone is suppy/return/supply/ return/ instead of the back and forth which gives you supply through half the zone and cool return through the other half of the same zone...and we limit our runs to approx. 250 ft. and of course thermostacically control the zones that are installed in the partitions required which will be extra important on your upstairs apt.

If your upstairs is floor trusses we run in a sixteen wide up /down/up/in the same truss space then thru the other to what ever is require to use a separate loop or loops for each room to be controlled individual as the same if in floor if your upstair floor is poured.

You also have the option of rads upstairs..there are some nice ones..and heated towel racks etc but radiant works best....

Plan it well,no need for lines under cupboards etc as you potatoes etc hate the heat..haha..stay 6 inches in on finished walls and 12 inches from toilet wax rings and 16 inches in on doors to the outside.
Use rehau oxy barrier 1/2 to your main manifold stations and them are feed by your boiler by 3/4 or 1 inch...use rehau or zurn manifolds and make darn sure that when you energize your system at the beginning even if you are using a glycol mix that the WATER PORTION is put through a media mix similar to a water softener but different...lol..it prevents reactions.....

Your dealing with 93 percent efficiency with Viessman...

http://www.viessmann.us/en/Residential/Products.html

^^^^^^^^^^^
What he said. Clearly has installed a few systems.

M8-Have you installed any of these systems in a home constructed of SIP panels? I would be curious to know some of the energy costs throughout the year.

In the trophy room I posted on here a while ago we used a high-efficiency gas fired furnace and had sprayed foam insulation in the wall cavities and a combo of sprayed and blown in the roof. His heating bill through the winter wasn't much over 40 dollars. This is in about a 1000 sq ft space with 20 ft plus ceilings.

Also, I love the idea of radiant heat in the shop area, but I prefer other methods for the dwelling. My parents both have radiant heat in their homes, and they are almost too efficient. Once the home heats up, it just seems to keep heating up...Whenever I visit in the winter I always make sure to pack some shorts because it gets so warm in there.

Wheel House- Where in the valley is your shop/dwelling? A good friend of mine is looking to do the same thing. He is convinced he can't build one for a decent price, but I think he probably can. Just has to find the land...

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

We are south of town on cottonwood of Johnson rd. Finding the appropriate land is definately the struggle around here. Building cost for me is purely materials right now, the only thing we HAVENT done is our well because we dont have a rig, so price really isnt so bad, just takes a lots and lots of late nights and weekends to make it happen.

Laying out the loops for the homes seems to be the biggest thing for keeping temps how you want them and not uncomfortable. Start loops in bathroom and finish them through bedrooms so sleeping is cooler but common space is nice and cozy. I dont mind living warm! shorts and a t-shirt all year inside is my kind of living, especially when your not paying an arm and a leg to keep it that way.

I think we found a system very similar to what M8 was suggesting. Local supply center deals with them. Does domestic and radiant all in one, instant system. not cheap, but its the backbone of the house and makes living comfortable and worry free!

I am lucky, my folks have layed out a few of there own houses using radiant so they have seen what works and what gets annoyingly hot.

 

[snowmoherb]

M8, do you need a job? I could use a few good plumbers here in Seattle

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk 2

 

[m8magicandmystery]

^^^^^^^^^^^
.

M8-Have you installed any of these systems in a home constructed of SIP panels? I would be curious to know some of the energy costs throughout the year.



My parents both have radiant heat in their homes, and they are almost too efficient. Once the home heats up, it just seems to keep heating up...Whenever I visit in the winter I always make sure to pack some shorts because it gets so warm in there.

QUOTE]

yes we have installed in a few homes with SIP panels but don't know the follow up on energy costs...(the unhappy customer deals with the Bosses promises..haha) but my nephew has a system in his new home constructed with these panels and this upcoming season will be his first so I will eventually have an idea with his home which has the infloor in his basement slab and as well the two upstairs bathrooms with then with Jaga rads installed in the other rooms upstairs.

If an outdoor temp sensor is properly communicating the temperature changes outside with the boiler system and the system is set properly the radiant infloor should adjust and keep in the comfort zone...but really a homeowner really has to take a real interest in the system and learn it well otherwise many benefits are lost.

In the remote communities I still like the idea of a boiler with just cut in temp and cut out and get the hot water where you need it and where you can find spare parts in the local dump...haha..because some of these new systems really have a learning curve and the folks in the communities want to keep their existing livelyhood and not learn a new one..

 

[m8magicandmystery]

M8, do you need a job? I could use a few good plumbers here in Seattle

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk 2

Thank you...but after two hernia's...a possible herniated back..a current stage two ankle sprain and a future near appointment with a neurologist for leg weakness and numbness thanks to boiler lifting/wood stove lifting/hotwater tank lifting / showers and tubs/and crawl spaces so long and shallow where I have had to tuck my butt up to get an inch clearance to pee to the side..etc etc..im starting to look forward to being a Wallmart greeter instead of crippled in Seattle....hahaha..