Quality Control On Our Sleds... What Is Happening?

[EventsInTheChamber]

Being a Quality Control engineer it is tuff to see how sleds are being built these days. The use of improper materials, not tight enough tolerances and parts that have gone threw metallurgical processes not best suited to where a snowmobile is used are in my opinion major factors to the decline of workmanship being put into these machines.
With regards to parts being found or even tools found in new machines this just shows that all the manufacturer is trying to do is get the job done and out the door as fast as possible...Hey who cares if there is a installers screwdriver sitting under the motor, it won't move, plus it's not my machine is the attitute I see some of these people having.

There are solutions to these problems but common sence costs money for these guys.

 

[diggerdown]

The whole problem is Americans have no pride left. It's just a job and at the end of the day, no one cares. I don't know if it starts at management and moves to the workers or vice-versa. No name entities at the top of the food chain, after the buck! The Japanies cannot build things cheaper than us. The difference is that they still have a work force with pride and dedication. Management still wants quality along with profit. I think our politicians lead the way with their pompus attitudes and self serving leadership. Whats ethics?

 

[RideGuy]

I think it might also have something to do with mass information.

Another words, there's a lot of things I would never have heard before forums.

I agree.... Most people with problems come to the 4M for an answer... So you get the worst case scenario's...

Pick your poison... We are quite hard on these sleds.... and I think most 4M members are just a little more passionate than your average sledder who might not care about optimum performance.....

I think we are all addicted and are always looking for that little edge to out do your friends.....

Viral advertising at it's finest.... It's designed to be spread !!!!


On the whole R&D by the big companies.... Shame on Them for leaving it up to the consumers. Shame on us for being so demanding of them to make them change chassis....

The sled's should be dialed in for the elevation they are going to from the factory.... Mapping, Clutching..... Clutch fine tuning should be done from there on by the dealer and the customer if so desired......

Bulk set ups do not work over all..... Heck I'm sure each sled has it's own characteristic's and personality that needs to be addressed and tuned for.....

Great Subject!!!!!!

Quality Controll needs improvement on these high priced machines I.M.O.

 

[winter brew]

Do any of you remember the sleds in the '70's and '80's ??? They've come a looooong ways with quality and reliability. The beating these things take is unbelievable, the terrain we use them on etc....the performance, ergo's, ride is outstanding compared to just a few years ago.
With the sled buyer demanding something "new, lighter, more power" every season it's a miracle they can have as good of quality as they do. When they keep a chassis for a few years they have a chance to work the bugs out....but then we won't buy it because it's "outdated junk".....then we complain that we are guinea pigs when we buy a first year sled. Pretty tough to build a "perfect" sled without issues on the first year. The auto makers can't even do it.

 

[thefullmonte]

I had some Yamahas through the 80's and 90's. Absolutely bulletproof. Never blew belts or had any kind of issues. I still have an 92 indy 440 that is just dependable as can be. Granted these aren't the big hp machines we ride today nor are they as comfortable.
I hate to say it. And I understand Polaris wants to stay true to it's roots in Roseau, but look at the situation. What kind of work force do they have to choose from???? If someone isn't doing their job at an acceptable level, it isn't as though they can just hire someone else! How many 5 year degree engineers do you know that would choose to live in small town Roseau just a jump away from Canada. I'm not bashing anyone or where they live, but I think most of you understand my point.
I'm not so sure I would say this is the consumers fault. Yes, we like new and better. The manufactures however, seem to be in some sort of imaginary race with each other. To what end and to produce what I'm not sure. Look at sportbikes and dirtbikes. Minimal changes from year to year. Although on paper you would think its a brand new bike each year . You just don't see issues with these products. Look at a Honda CR/CRF very minimal geometry changes in the frame since it's unveiling in 96.
I think most of the complaints we all have are stemming more from fit and finish. ( I love to pick on the headlight seal) You can have the greatest chassis in the world, but what fun is it if your sled won't run because your airbox is full of snow. Mountainhorse mentioned poor wire routing on the 900's. I have rerouted and placed plastic wire loom matrial around most of my sleds wiring. Right out of the box are you really going to have a brake line rubbing on a sharp metal braket? Turn the bracket upside down and the problem would be solved. Anyone of us can look at this stuff and tell it's not right. The IQ chassis has been around since 05 and they still can't route wires in an acceptable manner. That's just lack of caring and effort in my book.
And as someone said earlier, it stems from the top and works down.
Little Timmy isn't going to tighten that hoseclamp if his supervisor doesn't make him. Joe supervisor won't care about Timmy unless his manager is threatening his job with better perfomance from his crew. And Bob the manager won't care as long as the CEO is happy and making $.
In 150 miles I should change the oil in my chaincase, not cancel a trip to dissassemble half my sled to realign my clutches.

 

[high time]

How about some respect?

Pol. has repeatedly hired engineers for big projects then dumped them when they thought they were done. Milk a design for years and years then all of a sudden try to build new sleds with A-arms, EFI, and new motors all at once. Why take pride in you employer when your that disposable? Cat has their problems , but employee pride doesn't seem to one of them. They keep up the small changes year by year and keep employees . But ''if '' our sport would settle down to even less change , quality could rise quickly. In our sport we do expect big improvements for the upcomming model. A far more dependable sled would be one that didn't change so much. Cheaper too!

Owen

 

[shortstop20]

Motorcycles have nowhere near the problems snowmobiles do(even when you compare Yamaha motorcycles to Yamaha snowmobiles). Snowmobiles have changed more I would say(especially chassis wise) but the biggest factor is that snowmobiles are a much smaller market so quality suffers. I'm guessing It would cost the factory up to $500 more per model to make these sleds the way they should be and that we expect them to be from the factory. Most of us hardcore enthusiasts might not mind the price increase but some will and the casual user most likely would. It's all give or take. The thing this industry needs most is a few good snow years in a row, a decade would be even better).

That's my .02

 

[MNIQR]

Baby steps on the snow years shorty. Lets start with 1 at a time and just keep going. We dont wanna get too greedy.
The quality issue is insane with how bad it is. Lets take poo for example, as mentioned above about Roseau, i think there a big part of the problem.
On a side note, while at Hayday in the poo display area, i noticed the gaping holes in the front between the bulkhead and the front section of the nosecone area on both sides. I asked is that normal, is that supposed to be like that? 3 of them looked at it and said im not sure, and i quote "the assault was built just like this last year and we ran the hell out of it in the deepst stuff we could find and it didnt have problems with snow coming in thru the holes(i could put my hand thru them there so big)"
All i could say to that was WOW, i guess ill have to fix that if its a problem, along with all the other things im sure.

 

[KMMAC]

I'ts pretty simple really, TOO MANY GREEDY SHARE HOLDERS, when the factories started answering to the share holders instead of the dealers and the customers the whole industry changed. Micro Soft just bought back about 48,000,000 shares to strenghten the company. So when you have money grubbers looking for a quick buck telling you that you have to increase your bottom line or else, I say buy the worthless culls out and go back to building sleds like they can build them and quit compromising product quality. GREED KILLS!!!!!!!

 

[XC700116]

I've read numerous things in this thread that make a lot of sense. Here's my take.

1: stick with a chassis for a while and make refinements along the way. Evidence of this is the indy/wedge chassis that Polaris ran from the early 80's until 1998 and the Gen 2 wasn't much different. More recently look at the M chassis from Arctic Cat, It's been around for a while now and this year is better than ever. Yet everyone seems to be looking for a new one from Cat?

2: Mass production has it's drawbacks and quality can be one of them. How many here have ever worked on an assembly line? I'm not saying it's an excuse for poor quality but dang that's gotta get really old and at some point you probably just don't give a rip anymore.

Although it's been a long time ago I've toured both Arctic Cat and Polaris in Thief River Falls and Roseau and I can see many reasons for missed details. Lighting is crap, loud work environment, dirty in some places, the list goes on.

As someone that has helped design, build, and refine assembly line processes, looking back on those places I know of many things that could change to make quality better. Automating more of the processes could do wonders for quality in these plants. The problem is that snowmobile manufacturers cannot fully automate due to the vast numbers of models and options on a limited number of units produced unlike the automotive markets as well as motorcycles and even quads today.

3: Corporate Culture of today's big businesses is profits now and above anything else. Like stated before the shareholders come first and the customer is left holding the bag. Increasing costs and demands only perpetuate this.

4: The Dealers - Although they really shouldn't be responsible for it, they can build their client base by providing services that go the extra mile. Many have done this and I commend those that do. Unfortunately they have to compete with dealers that will sell at a lower price without the service. A dealer I once worked for did go the extra mile and now I almost want to purchase my sled in the crate and set it up myself and forgo the setup charge as if it isn't done right I feel I wasted that money. Too bad most dealers won't do it. This is also the reason that unless it warranty work I do it myself on anything (sled, truck, ect) At least then I know it was done right. Like said before good help is hard to find.

5: The American Workforce - Unfortunately our culture has come to expect a decent wage for minimum work. I find this even in my employees (58 and 62 yrs old) so I don't think it's purely generational. However I will say that there are MANY good people out there that work hard and take a lot of pride in their work. They're just not easy to find as they normally eventually find an employer that appreciates it and don't leave.

my.02

 

[timber_tramp]

A couple things that no one has mentioned yet.

Todays sleds have at least twice the power of tho old iron from the 70s and early 80s that a few of you talked about as being reliable.

With the suspensions being as good as they are, we ride the crap out of our sleds on rougher trails and bigger jumps.(try that on your old SRV)

I agree that there are problems with sleds regarding the outsourcing of parts, poor engineering and in some cases even build quality.

My point is that we ride them WAY harder than ever before. They may break sooner.

 

[mountainhorse]

TTT for an appropriated thread as of late.

 

[0007]

Allot of people say that the Japanese are not to blame. Well they are, they can build things multiple times cheaper than Americans can and they can afford to spend more time on them

That one's got me scratching my head
Prior to 1984 you may have been right but their economy went through the roof after that time
US manufacturer's lately are build and ship direct to a dealers door by truck
Japan has an ocean, carbo ship's, warehousing, customs, etc before it can even get on a truck
If you take your 20 - 25 bux (US or Can) an hour and try to live on that in Japan you would be starving to death
It's not cheeper to build in Japan, not by a long shot, you are thinking of China and other than geographic location, they aint even close to the same