Arctic Cat, Polaris, Ski Doo
(and Yamaha???)
(and Yamaha???)
...
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Quality Control On Our Sleds... What Is Happening?
- Thread starter mountainhorse
- Start date
I don't put ANY blame on the dealer.... they are already working on super tight margins in the first place... the only place some of them make money is on the accessories. Not to say that there are some stellar dealers and some that don't care... it's the same with any product sold thru a dealer network.
The dealers should be given a better allowance by the factory for proper setup.
As an example...On the 900 CFi sleds, there is NO adjustment for the engine to clutch alignment AT ALL...no adjustability was designed in by the engineers at the factory
. If a 900 was out of spec at the factory and was eating belts/cranks/clutches because of a misalignment problem, the techs and dealership were left holding the bag on something that was not reparable unless Polaris as a Mfg replaced the entire sled or bulkhead... The wiring was installed on the 900's in such a shoddy way that failures were happening on a regular basis because the wires were rubbing thru or the connectors (TPS etc) were over-crimped and the wire failed and on and on. And these sleds cost over $11,000 (ouch) when they were new.
I agree that if you buy a high dollar sled it should not have problems.... I have not been following the Yami stuff that closely, so I wonder if there sleds have fewer issues?
I've come to expect the setup issues on the Doos, and Polaris sleds that I've owned.
For the most part, the sleds I've owned have been great performers.
The alignment is something that should be checked and adjusted each season. It will change depending on how hard you ride, how much jumping you do, if you run a high perf engine, if the nuts/bolts loosen.
The deflection should be adjusted every few rides as spec'd out in the manual. The side clearance is something that changes as the belt wears and also from belt to belt due to mfg tolerances. On a good note, I have found that the Mitsuboshi belts have a closer tolerance than the other Polaris and Gates belts that I have measured.... so that’s good.
Xp's shouldnt need the aftermarket to give thier owners peace of mind that their driveshafts won't fall apart in the backcountry nor should a diamond drive need an aftermarket adjuster or billet bracket to relocate the rear suspension, Poos shouldnt need the owner to seal a healdight so the engine does not suck in powder snow or hundreds in clutching to get your deep snow machine to work in deep snow. etc etc etc...
Yes, the sled industry does need to step up the Quality control on the machines... that is for sure.
The dealers should be given a better allowance by the factory for proper setup.
As an example...On the 900 CFi sleds, there is NO adjustment for the engine to clutch alignment AT ALL...no adjustability was designed in by the engineers at the factory
. If a 900 was out of spec at the factory and was eating belts/cranks/clutches because of a misalignment problem, the techs and dealership were left holding the bag on something that was not reparable unless Polaris as a Mfg replaced the entire sled or bulkhead... The wiring was installed on the 900's in such a shoddy way that failures were happening on a regular basis because the wires were rubbing thru or the connectors (TPS etc) were over-crimped and the wire failed and on and on. And these sleds cost over $11,000 (ouch) when they were new. I agree that if you buy a high dollar sled it should not have problems.... I have not been following the Yami stuff that closely, so I wonder if there sleds have fewer issues?
I've come to expect the setup issues on the Doos, and Polaris sleds that I've owned.
For the most part, the sleds I've owned have been great performers.
The alignment is something that should be checked and adjusted each season. It will change depending on how hard you ride, how much jumping you do, if you run a high perf engine, if the nuts/bolts loosen.
The deflection should be adjusted every few rides as spec'd out in the manual. The side clearance is something that changes as the belt wears and also from belt to belt due to mfg tolerances. On a good note, I have found that the Mitsuboshi belts have a closer tolerance than the other Polaris and Gates belts that I have measured.... so that’s good.
Xp's shouldnt need the aftermarket to give thier owners peace of mind that their driveshafts won't fall apart in the backcountry nor should a diamond drive need an aftermarket adjuster or billet bracket to relocate the rear suspension, Poos shouldnt need the owner to seal a healdight so the engine does not suck in powder snow or hundreds in clutching to get your deep snow machine to work in deep snow. etc etc etc...
Yes, the sled industry does need to step up the Quality control on the machines... that is for sure.
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There are plenty of Americans that take pride in their work. And some that don't as well.
It takes a "large American wage" to live in the USA...even more so now with the price of EVERYTHING going up.
I'm not sure if it is a lack of pride on the part of the factory worker or the fact that corporate orders mandate that the assembly line be run in such a fashion that the worker has no time to setup this stuff correctly at the factory.
This is coupled with the pressures for wage cuts in the face of global outsourcing that eliminates many jobs in our country every year. The consumer votes with their dollars on what they TRULY prefer... or want to believe. Many may not like that the majority of our consumer products in the USA are made in foreign lands, but they will still buy their stuff at Wallmart every week.
Many members on this forum are very frustrated by the cost of the aftermarket parts for our sleds... I'd bet more than 95% of them are made in the USA and that is why the cost is so high... I dont see the owners of Edgeworks or Fire N Ice driving around in New Escalades and putting a new 10,000 sq ft addition on their homes....It's the cost of making things in the USA...
We all want it "CHEAPER and BETTER".... or we want to belive that the quality can be maintained or improved for less cost.... It's just human nature!
I grew up in the Detroit area... lots of auto workers in my neighborhood... some of them were lazy SOB's that would not put a bolt in a fender correctly... but others who took great pride in their work but were not allowed by time constraints dictated by the management do the good work they wanted to do. It is super frustrating for a line worker when the time allotted for performing their task is not made by someone who actually knows how to do the task... and I'm talking about quality minded, apple pie eatin survivors of the depresion that know what pride in their work and our country is all about.
All of these decisions are made in an environment, our laws, that require public owned companies (like Polaris, Exxon, Blue-Cross, etc...) to maximize profits for their share holders. It's a pretty complicated "tangled web" in our society. A multi-variable equation if you will that is upset greatly when you change the different factors that affect the system.
These are the same profit-margin pressures that prevent the factory from making a recall or free service on obvious flaws in a design.
Profit maximization should be REQIRED by the S.E.C. to include a component of sustainability (for our country's economy and security) as well as maintaining the quality of a product. If a company is expected to increase profits when the costs are skyrocketing [check the cost of copper, plastic, steel and fuel lately] and still turn out a quality product and increase their shareholders earnings... that is a recipe for disaster...not just for Polaris, Cat and Ski-Doo... but for our USA as a society.
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I've even heard from others on this forum that if a warranty problem cannot be fixed in the alloted time specified by the factory, that the dealer can charge the difference in time to the customer... and the Factory does not give much time to the dealer to perform the repair in the first place!
How bad is that?
What kind of pressure does that put on the dealer? (especially the smaller one that does not have much clout with the factory in the first place).
How bad is that?
What kind of pressure does that put on the dealer? (especially the smaller one that does not have much clout with the factory in the first place).
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Thanks Mountainhorse,
Very professional and informative as always. I always respect your opinion. And I want to appoligize ahead of time. I have a bad habit of grouping everyone into a single catogory. Most of you can look in the mirror and know if you are a hard worker or not. I'm sorry for that comment.
I develop alot of opinions from the people who work for me. I was having a discussion just last week with another figure in the industry. A manufacturer of after market products for the sport we all love. He is very refreshing to talk with. I rarely see the pride and enthusiasm that himself his family and employees show. We both had similar experiences where as a company we could get more accomplished with less people. This was due to us just doing the work ourselves and not having to babysit those around us. It always seems to be the one moving at half pace and putting forth zero effort, that is always complaining about wanting a raise.
A sad truth hit me in the face last week. I ordered a carbon fiber piece for my motorcycle. This piece was of course made in the good ol USA. Some precision work with my dremel tool and some spacers later. I finally got it to fit? Shouldn't it just bolt on?
I agree with your idea of allowing a greater allowance to the dealers. A fine idea in my eyes. And I of course understand that things require maintenance. However, not after 150 miles.
Very professional and informative as always. I always respect your opinion. And I want to appoligize ahead of time. I have a bad habit of grouping everyone into a single catogory. Most of you can look in the mirror and know if you are a hard worker or not. I'm sorry for that comment.
I develop alot of opinions from the people who work for me. I was having a discussion just last week with another figure in the industry. A manufacturer of after market products for the sport we all love. He is very refreshing to talk with. I rarely see the pride and enthusiasm that himself his family and employees show. We both had similar experiences where as a company we could get more accomplished with less people. This was due to us just doing the work ourselves and not having to babysit those around us. It always seems to be the one moving at half pace and putting forth zero effort, that is always complaining about wanting a raise.
A sad truth hit me in the face last week. I ordered a carbon fiber piece for my motorcycle. This piece was of course made in the good ol USA. Some precision work with my dremel tool and some spacers later. I finally got it to fit? Shouldn't it just bolt on?
I agree with your idea of allowing a greater allowance to the dealers. A fine idea in my eyes. And I of course understand that things require maintenance. However, not after 150 miles.
And I couldn't agree more.
J
Jaynelson
Well-known member
Couldn't agree more. I like my current sled (Rev), but when you actually do a little parts inventory on what's gone wrong in 1200 miles, it's kinda scary:
1) New motor (bad crank bearing from factory)
2) 2 sets of clutch bushings (ski-doo forgot how to build a clutch in 07)
3) New throttle position sensor
4) New handwarmer on right side
5) New clutch springs, weights, etc, to get it to run right (see #2)
6) Track wearing at unacceptable rate
7) Airbox and bellypan needed additional sealing from the factory
Not to bash, but Jesus H....that's more parts than I've broken in all of my 15+ automobiles combined, and those get driven everyday with relatively 0 maintenence! The worst part is....most of it was wrong from day 1. And I don't care what brand it is, they're all horrible compared to any other motorized product. The only one I have slightly more faith in is Yamaha because they're Japanese and have built motors/heads for Toyota for decades.
1) New motor (bad crank bearing from factory)
2) 2 sets of clutch bushings (ski-doo forgot how to build a clutch in 07)
3) New throttle position sensor
4) New handwarmer on right side
5) New clutch springs, weights, etc, to get it to run right (see #2)
6) Track wearing at unacceptable rate
7) Airbox and bellypan needed additional sealing from the factory
Not to bash, but Jesus H....that's more parts than I've broken in all of my 15+ automobiles combined, and those get driven everyday with relatively 0 maintenence! The worst part is....most of it was wrong from day 1. And I don't care what brand it is, they're all horrible compared to any other motorized product. The only one I have slightly more faith in is Yamaha because they're Japanese and have built motors/heads for Toyota for decades.
It's easy, one word: OUTSOURCING!!!
Parts are coming from the lowest priced vendor. Reason the Ski-Doo's after they split from Bombardier to BRP 2007 and up sleds are junk. Bad clutch parts,
cast parts made in vietnam, etc....
MADE in USA is a joke any more.
Look at "Chinrolet", chevy their china production line models are junk why does a nissan altima with 270 HP get better gas milage than a chevy alvero???
That's enough rant.
Parts are coming from the lowest priced vendor. Reason the Ski-Doo's after they split from Bombardier to BRP 2007 and up sleds are junk. Bad clutch parts,
cast parts made in vietnam, etc....
MADE in USA is a joke any more.
Look at "Chinrolet", chevy their china production line models are junk why does a nissan altima with 270 HP get better gas milage than a chevy alvero???
That's enough rant.
Outsourcing is one of the big reasons... but not the only one.
All I know is that we had a pair of Yamaha's growing up, the 1978 enticer I started riding when I was 4 finally crapped out when I was 22. I'd say that's a pretty good track record, especially considering my parents owned that sled 6 years before I ever even started riding it ... my dad's 84 SRV had the **** modded out of it and it still ran for 10 years.
We bought 4 Polaris sleds in 2005, including one used 1999 700 RMK. The 1999 700 RMK was far and away a better built machine than the 2006 sleds were. The 900, I don't even need to get into, but what really gets me are the 600's ... they blow oil all over the ground, etc, we have had them back at the dealer twice to fix the problem and they still blow black suit out of the exhaust. Even the 78' Yamaha never did this ...
Personally, I find it assanine that in 2006 with all of our riding areas on the line, Polaris releases a series of sleds from the factory that leave a black oily suit mark on the snow if you sit there and idle the sled for 20 seconds.
Thanks Polaris
The whole reason we bought Polaris sleds when we got back into snomobiling a few years ago was the "buy american" mentality.
Needless to say, my next sled is assuredly going to be a Yamaha, and so is my next 4-wheeler. I compare the quality of the YFZ450 I bought to the Polaris Predators out now and the Predators almost seem like those cheap chineese quads you buy at hardware stores when compared to the YFZ ..
I don't know but it sure seems to me like Polaris really fell off the ladder for a few years there ... I know the 07 and 08's were better than the 06's, but still ... there's no excuse for that shoddy of quality on a $10k purchase.
We bought 4 Polaris sleds in 2005, including one used 1999 700 RMK. The 1999 700 RMK was far and away a better built machine than the 2006 sleds were. The 900, I don't even need to get into, but what really gets me are the 600's ... they blow oil all over the ground, etc, we have had them back at the dealer twice to fix the problem and they still blow black suit out of the exhaust. Even the 78' Yamaha never did this ...
Personally, I find it assanine that in 2006 with all of our riding areas on the line, Polaris releases a series of sleds from the factory that leave a black oily suit mark on the snow if you sit there and idle the sled for 20 seconds.
Thanks Polaris
The whole reason we bought Polaris sleds when we got back into snomobiling a few years ago was the "buy american" mentality.
Needless to say, my next sled is assuredly going to be a Yamaha, and so is my next 4-wheeler. I compare the quality of the YFZ450 I bought to the Polaris Predators out now and the Predators almost seem like those cheap chineese quads you buy at hardware stores when compared to the YFZ ..
I don't know but it sure seems to me like Polaris really fell off the ladder for a few years there ... I know the 07 and 08's were better than the 06's, but still ... there's no excuse for that shoddy of quality on a $10k purchase.
Sure, you can get a new sled from a manufacturer that is top quality and doesn't have the issues of the big 4... You just have to pay 2-3 times as much for a CMX or some other specialty sled. They take the time and do it right and that's why they are so spendy. My frustration lies in this: Sled tech is changing so fast the 2 year old stuff is out-dated. Mfgs are competing for the few peeps who will buy new sleds so they rush things into production too quickly ( i.e. Poo 900 RMK , 07 Doo's etc.) They hardly get the bugs worked out and refinements made before the new line-up is announced. then the prices go up each year to pay for not only R&D, but for the warranty isssues of previous models. Look how long the specialty guys run a design before they change it. I guess you can have quality or the latest-greatest thing. not both.
S
Spaarky
Well-known member
Just out of curiosity. Lets say I was riding in your home area, and had problems that should be fixed under warranty. I brought my sled in and you went over the time, would you charge me then????
I am in a completely different line of business, but I do kind of the same thing you do. I do favors for my customers that dont shop around on me. I had a long time customer that I probally could have billed a total of 1-2,000$ over the last 8-10 years. It never involves materials, or my employee's time, just an hour of my time here or there.
Last year they shopped around and had someone else do work at their house. Well, the first time after that they reicieved a bill and wondered why.
A couple years back I am on a brand new Kingcat and stopped to eat lunch tilt up the hood to put goggles in a warm spot and notice a hose clamp lying down inside by the chaincase. I go into a panic thinking one is missing, but they are all on so the next day I'm at the dealer and tell him this and he says he's not suprised and that theres probably more hardware under the engine as well. He further states that when they are assembling sleds and drop a bolt/nut/clamp, they just grab another, no big deal. I felt that this was the wrong thing to tell me after I bought 2 new M7's and the new KK. I agree with Sawyer! All new sleds are junk. Had another one: Someone left a screwdriver under the hood on one of the M7's, it made its way to the brake rotor where it proceded to grind down, almost toasted the rotor before i noticed it. This is a brand new sled, 0 miles, no one admitted it was their screwdriver. and being a new sled it was obvious that it wasnt mine!! Beware of the AC dealer here! Just my .02
most of it lies with the dealers, we got a stellar dealer in storm lake iowa. We've bought many sleds from him and I would never even think about going anywhere else for another sled. Now the parts guy is a different story, he's a doooshe bag. but zeke sells more mountain sleds in the midwest than any other dealer. just my .02
I must be pretty lucky---bought an 03 700 rmk new and an o6 m7 new, never had a problem with either one.
I think it might also have something to do with mass information.
Another words, there's a lot of things I would never have heard before forums.
Another words, there's a lot of things I would never have heard before forums.
The old adage "Good help is hard to find" more than likely comes into play here. I deal with a very reputable dealer but unfortunately he has had the same airhead behind the counter for several years now. I begin with a part order on Monday, I receive the wrong part on Tuesday, I send it back with more directions on Wednesday, I receive the proper part on Thursday, assemble on Friday, so I can go for a ride on Saturday. This circus happens more often than not. The unfortunate side of all this is the fact that this is the most on the ball dealer I can find. Going over your new sled with a fine tooth comb is a must, American quality is mediocre at best. I recently purchased a sled with a motor rebuilt from a shop with a solid reputation. It looks as though when the cylinders were honed they neglected to clean the grit from the surface, at 150 miles the pistons look as if they were worked over by 100 grit emery cloth. I know my rebuilds don't look this way. The other adage that comes to mind is "If you want something done right, do it yourself". You can bet that even large corporations such as Polaris Industries struggle to find good help.
C
Clarke673
Somewhere between too dumb to quit and flat earth
Its our fault. Not entirely but mostly. Manufacturers are pressured to build the cheapest, lightest, power fullest sled out there. The fine details, necessities, and what maid the brand good are lost in there some ware. If my 900 weighed 30 pounds more but had more features, was more reliable and didn't have the problems it does i would be FINE with that. Who cares if the XP is 50 pounds lighter than a rev. Ride an XP that has been abused for a full year now and just look at all the body parts that are falling apart compared to what a normal rev would look like. Don't get me started on 05-08 Polaris front ends... I ran my golf cart into the back of our 57 Chevy truck on accident and there was less damage to the fiberglass body than there is with my 900 when tried to pick the front end out of some snow and the entire bumper broke off in my hands. The new ones scare me still.
Allot of people say that the Japanese are not to blame. Well they are, they can build things multiple times cheaper than Americans can and they can afford to spend more time on them. Most American companies are on the brink of being bankrupt. They are trying to afford that CEO’s fat paycheck while the CEO and GM usually don’t know anything about the product. I read in motertrend a while back that the CEW of Lowe’s is now the CEO of Chrysler or something like that.
All they care about is making money while the people who are more worried about making a good product can’t compete at the same price. (CMX, Fabcraft)
I bet that with in the next 3-4 years one of the big 4 ( Polaris, Yamaha, Cat and Doo) will sell it to another manufacturer. I believe our sport is Truly in danger. Sleds are costing more and more every day, racing is on the verge of ending and the greenies are doing everything in they’re power to shut the land down so only they can use it (selfish pricks). If there is going to be a future in riding, the manufactures need to build more efficient sleds with the same amount of power as now for the same or less price. We need to get racing and freestyle on tv right next to AMA super cross. WE also need to take better care of the environment and show that we can have just as little impact on the environment as anyone else. If we can’t do all of those things I doubt I will be able to ride ware I do in the next ten years and that really makes me sad. If/when I ever do have kids, I want them to experience the fun that we all can now and it would be tragic for that to end.
I have more to say about everything if anyone wants to listen....
Allot of people say that the Japanese are not to blame. Well they are, they can build things multiple times cheaper than Americans can and they can afford to spend more time on them. Most American companies are on the brink of being bankrupt. They are trying to afford that CEO’s fat paycheck while the CEO and GM usually don’t know anything about the product. I read in motertrend a while back that the CEW of Lowe’s is now the CEO of Chrysler or something like that.
All they care about is making money while the people who are more worried about making a good product can’t compete at the same price. (CMX, Fabcraft)
I bet that with in the next 3-4 years one of the big 4 ( Polaris, Yamaha, Cat and Doo) will sell it to another manufacturer. I believe our sport is Truly in danger. Sleds are costing more and more every day, racing is on the verge of ending and the greenies are doing everything in they’re power to shut the land down so only they can use it (selfish pricks). If there is going to be a future in riding, the manufactures need to build more efficient sleds with the same amount of power as now for the same or less price. We need to get racing and freestyle on tv right next to AMA super cross. WE also need to take better care of the environment and show that we can have just as little impact on the environment as anyone else. If we can’t do all of those things I doubt I will be able to ride ware I do in the next ten years and that really makes me sad. If/when I ever do have kids, I want them to experience the fun that we all can now and it would be tragic for that to end.
I have more to say about everything if anyone wants to listen....
dealers
someone said on this thread that sure we will take care of you if you bought it here that is a load of crap.Talk about taking care of the little guy I just bought a used sled and I have a warrenty issue and I have to drive 550 miles to get it fixed one dealer in my area told me that they would take care of it next fall thats great custumer service to all the dealers out there try this go back to the age old saying HOW CAN I EARN YOUR BUISNESS because beleive me everone at the snowshow and everyone I meet in the mountains will know who took care of my problem and who told me to go away word of mouth will kill a dealer faster than anything
someone said on this thread that sure we will take care of you if you bought it here that is a load of crap.Talk about taking care of the little guy I just bought a used sled and I have a warrenty issue and I have to drive 550 miles to get it fixed one dealer in my area told me that they would take care of it next fall thats great custumer service to all the dealers out there try this go back to the age old saying HOW CAN I EARN YOUR BUISNESS because beleive me everone at the snowshow and everyone I meet in the mountains will know who took care of my problem and who told me to go away word of mouth will kill a dealer faster than anything
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