Purpose built OEM? Is there a market? What is realistic?

[powdermuncher]

Love my Snowbike but when there is 2 feet of fresh and I grab a handful on the 850 it rocks where the snowlike has a hard time pulling 2nd gear
We need have a 600 or better 850 powered SnowBike that can hang with sleds in the steep and deep and bikes in the tree's every western rider that now has a SnowBike or 800 850 class sled will want one and eventually will get one.

I bet you on that one. is that a large enough market???

 

[Sheetmetalfab]

Love my Snowbike but when there is 2 feet of fresh and I grab a handful on the 850 it rocks where the snowlike has a hard time pulling 2nd gear

We need have a 600 or better 850 powered SnowBike that can hang with sleds in the steep and deep and bikes in the tree's every western rider that now has a SnowBike or 800 850 class sled will want one and eventually will get one.



I bet you on that one. is that a large enough market???

I agree.
The rotating mass will be key to the difference between rider controlling the bike or having the bike control the rider.

Fwiw.
(An 800r with tra and team secondary makes a straight line)
Turning / leaning takes superhuman strength.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[powdermuncher]

I can turn my 850 just fine , so does my better halve at 120 pounds -- guess we are super human. It sure is harder to hang on to 170 V/S 60 hp in the bike

I love my Bike but would love 170 Hp and push button reverse in on it even more.

 

[Sheetmetalfab]

I can turn my 850 just fine , so does my better halve at 120 pounds -- guess we are super human. It sure is harder to hang on to 170 V/S 60 hp in the bike

I love my Bike but would love 170 Hp and push button reverse in on it even more.

I can turn my axys or an 850 or mtn cat just fine also.

Take the center of gravity (motor and clutches) and raise it 12” (in a bike)
I thought exactly the same as you til I built one.

Easier said than done.

 

[powdermuncher]

Fair enough , that is where proper engineering will have to come in. There will definitely be some trail and error but I am sure it will work.

 

[RMK935VA]

It doesn't need to be an 800 to work. A 500 with 100 horsepower would be ridiculous. It can be done without a huge outlay in R&D. It is conceptually simple. Lose the transmission, motor is slim and short from front to rear, CVT transmission on the left side, jackshaft and final drive (belt) on the right. Seriously, one of the bigs could build this thing and sell it for $12,000 and make a tidy profit.

 

[RMK935VA]

A V twin would work too but V twin two strokes are a bit more problematic. I would do a parallel twin to keep costs down. A 600 would work and they are already building them. A 600 EFI two stroke twin makes 120 horsepower without even trying hard. Pipe routing is an issue but can be done. Again, I don't see the cost outlay as being a reason for one of the majors to not do it.

 

[Sheetmetalfab]

A V twin would work too but V twin two strokes are a bit more problematic. I would do a parallel twin to keep costs down. A 600 would work and they are already building them. A 600 EFI two stroke twin makes 120 horsepower without even trying hard. Pipe routing is an issue but can be done. Again, I don't see the cost outlay as being a reason for one of the majors to not do it.

A laydown twin (on the tunnel) turn the exhaust super tight below the seat.

Intake in front exhaust out the back.



(Reeds right into the “bottom” of the case?)

Chaindrive from bike style 6 speed tranny to drivers.

Tranny output 12” behind the drivers to give heel room.

No extra jackshaft.



I think unless new cvt technology is developed with less rotating mass this would be the best option.



Electronic reverse.

 

[Hawkster]

CVTech , they supply clutches for just about any brand you can think of . Simple and light easy to dial in . Have no idea what these other manufactures are even thinking about with their over weight high maintenance expensive to dial in short lived clutches .

The general population just doesn't know .

 

[Misha Subo]

keep it simple...

What could be better than the way it is right now?

...KISS

 

[needpowder]

What could be better than the way it is right now?

...KISS

I’m sure glad the sled companies didn’t have that attitude. I would have been riding a yamaha phaser for the last 20 years.

 

[Misha Subo]

How so very true...but the snow bike you're riding now is still pretty sweet, isn't it?

Do we really need more, more, more?

 

[dhdey]

What could be better than the way it is right now?

...KISS

for a bolt on kit that you can make back into a dirtbike its pretty darn good. but the potential for a purpose build single ski would make our current setups look like trash

 

[Misha Subo]

Another valid point....but...

I would presume most of us have gotten into the snow bike thing because we are also dirt bikers when there's no snow, so we feel comfortable on a dirt bike. I know some out there are also from the sled neck group as well.

Why would you want to have to organize the extra storage space, have the greater expense and take the extra time for a separate set up?

My snow bike feels so similar to my dirt bike and that's one of the most appealing points. If any characteristic was taken away from how it works now, I wouldn't buy it.

That being said, the next kit I do (in 2018/19) is going to be a 450 4T.

 

[Sheetmetalfab]

Another valid point....but...

I would presume most of us have gotten into the snow bike thing because we are also dirt bikers when there's no snow, so we feel comfortable on a dirt bike. I know some out there are also from the sled neck group as well.

Why would you want to have to organize the extra storage space, have the greater expense and take the extra time for a separate set up?

My snow bike feels so similar to my dirt bike and that's one of the most appealing points. If any characteristic was taken away from how it works now, I wouldn't buy it.

That being said, the next kit I do (in 2018/19) is going to be a 450 4T.

The thing I miss riding a snowbike on snow compared to a dirtbike on dirt is the wheelie/acceleration/ arm stretch factor.
That would be the main reason to build a purpose built.

If you value storage space more than performance that’s great, personally I have access to plenty of square footage to store things. My 300 stays ready for dirt (or ice with grip studs)

FWIW you will definitely enjoy a 450 much more than the 300.
Especially in steep terrain.

 

[needpowder]

How so very true...but the snow bike you're riding now is still pretty sweet, isn't it?

Do we really need more, more, more?

Yes. I love love love my bike but i would love a better one even more?

 

[Kaarlonen]

I agree.
The rotating mass will be key to the difference between rider controlling the bike or having the bike control the rider.

Fwiw.
(An 800r with tra and team secondary makes a straight line)
Turning / leaning takes superhuman strength.

Could you guys who have built and ridden CVT snowbike tell in detail how the gyroscopic forces are affecting the handling compared to normal snowbikes?

In short gyroscopic effect rotates the applied force 90deg to the rotational direction.
https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-e9b3fdfbdf92b0547ed90bc25da988ae
So in situation where one is driving snowbike in straight line and then makes counter steer to iniate turn, gyroscopic effect would aid the bike to change direction when parts in the bike are rotating "forward".
That also makes the bike more stable and automatically steer itself to the leaning direction if tipped over unintentionally.

I have very limited experience with real motorbikes so this is just thinking out loud, but is this gyroeffect a problem on the dirt or road where you have two wheels adding to the created gyroscopic forces?
I would think that two wheels create more gyroscopic forces than cvt components?

 

[Hawkster]

You just opened up a whole can of worms . If the factories could not have improved what was once a problematic balancing issue the two wheeled world would be a lot smaller .

As far as the cvt goes there are so many factors , different mass size of a cvt alone makes a world of a difference .

One as an example ( yes I know it's not a snowbike or what people call a snowbike ) I rode for a couple of years with a CVTech that came on a 600 and word on the street was if I wanted more out of it I needed a TRA or an older Poo primary . So I went down that road and besides being a nightmare getting dialed in because the text book clutching recommendations do not apply to this machine . The biggest complaint I had besides eating up the guts was that the mass had a major major affect in the handling . There was a point in the throttle that was so noticeable that the spinning of that clutch hanging on the end of the crank wanted to throw you forward to the left head first into the ground . Eventually I switched to an 800 , factory 800s' came with a TRA , and also found a really nice race clutch , the dynamics changed with the 800 because of weight and the torque curve and was more forgiving . But I did not realize how problematic the mass weight flinging out clutches are until I went back to a CVTech where as the mass does not fling outward but stays as close to the center as possible . I also spent time on another machine with the Poo clutch and even though it's lighter than a TRA it still had the same problematic handling characteristics .
The machine is a lot easier to ride now just because the mass of some other clutches are constantly torquing against the balance of the machine and rider ability to steer with the foot pegs .
Not to mention the throttle snap is far more responsive than those other clutches can even produce .
The stock secondary also has been changed out to work with the primary .

Proper clutching is not the answer a proper clutch is .

Just the location of the secondary drive is also another factor on the bike kits , soooo many factors .

 

[boondocker97]

The thing I miss riding a snowbike on snow compared to a dirtbike on dirt is the wheelie/acceleration/ arm stretch factor.
That would be the main reason to build a purpose built...

This is a big one for me too. The lack of power, acceleration, and ability to get the front end up compared to what I know it does on dirt or on a sled is a major disappointment for me.

 

[boondocker97]

I just can't let this one go. Your signature sums it all up...you've been raised on sleds and quads (thingys) so obviously you're partial and biased towards them.

I suspect you are a much better sled and quad driver than a 2 stroke snow bike or mx rider?

I was definitely raised on sleds! I'm not Chris Burandt, but I get around pretty decent on one. I picked up racing mx with quads in high school and got up to expert/pro-am level. It was the superiority complex the dirt bike guys always had against the quad guys that put the bias against a bike in me more than the bikes themselves. Always talk about how much better a bike was, but would complain more about riding the track conditions than I care to talk about. Bikes and quads are like bikes and sleds to each other: better in some areas and worse in others.

I've only had bikes for about 5 years. Going on the mx track with a bike frustrates me because I can't do the things with the bike that I can do without a thought on the quad. Just haven't spent the time there to get those skills yet. My dirt bike friends don't really ride the track anymore either, just single track. So the bike skills I do have are more suited to that arena. I'm probably a B level rider there.

As far as two strokes go, I don't mind if someone can make it work and likes to ride one. I'm 6'-2" 260lb so I have to keep a 250 2s pretty wound out on dirt to be effective or exciting. So it's a non-starter for me on snow. I should have added a 500 2s snow bike would probably be more adequate for me. I like the simple, lightweight characteristics of the smokers and know how to work a clutch, there just aren't any currently available new that are up to the task for me personally.