I bet doo and poo have a couple of concept vehicles by summer. Too big to ignore at this point.
Purpose built OEM? Is there a market? What is realistic?
- Thread starter bendn
- Start date
Looking at the website it looks like a garage built prototype? kinda Frankenstein like. Ill wait a few more years until they streamline it a bit. But i don't see the benefit or a gnar bike over just building my own at the moment.
My BIL is a simple kind of guy, he likes turn-key and not having to build and piece things together. He was thrilled when I put the Camso on his bike and all the other things like the thermobob, heated grips, engine jacket-he wants and is willing to pay for easy.
He also thought that a bike that had no gears and that beginners can get on and enjoy the backwoods would be just the thing. It's a tall order making something like that but, we will see if it ever comes true.
He also thought that a bike that had no gears and that beginners can get on and enjoy the backwoods would be just the thing. It's a tall order making something like that but, we will see if it ever comes true.
I heard from a pretty reliable source that Yamaha had a prototype sno-specific bike built a few years back (not cat's attempt btw). They didn't think the market share was big enough for the investment to mass produce it.
Who says you can’t have both in the trailer.
Right on, the Noah's Ark of snowmachines, one of each.
I am keeping my trail sled as it owes me nothing and runs great. I like to think that someday it might be needed as a tow vehicle for the bike.
You’re actually really close with the noah comment.
Me and my brother have nearly identical bikes and sleds.
(Two of each in the trailer)
The gnar bike looks promising but needs some FEA and 3D modeling work to get things slimmed down and fitting like they belong.
The missing ingredient for a purpose built is a motor tranny combo with the lightweight narrow low rotating mass required for a bike.
Low overall engine height would also be a big plus.
In many ways it is good to have identical stuff as two heads are oftentimes better than one, and for troubleshooting, parts can be swapped, all that jazz. Funny that you both happen to have the same bikes and the Noah's Ark of snowmachine trailers.
I think the mass produced OEM snowbike for the masses is going to be a stretch. It has been hard enough luring people into the woods with machines when it is warm out. Never mind when it is cold, then having to travel on snowy roads in the winter . . . it is not an idea or thought that many really warm-up to. Sadly, many in the snowy climes are not like us hardcore nutjobs.
Mostly it’s good because the bikes and sleds perform nearly the same.
So all trash talk can focus on rider ability (or lack there of)
Ha! that is great.
Who says you can’t have both in the trailer.
Oh you absolutely can! One isn't a replacement for the other IMO. Snow bikes and sleds do different things better from each other. Last weekend my buddy had his Timbersled kitted 2017 KX 450 up riding with us on our sleds. It takes less effort to ride, cut whichever way you want to go on off-camber terrain, and is faster knifing through the tight trees. In deep snow it was all it wanted to pack me around 2nd gear rung out. Climbing was not its forte compared to the sleds (as most folks know). Making the step-up jump at the top of the hill my 900 had to be wound out for was also out of the question. My sled is routinely covered in "tree glitter" and I had to stop and cut some deadfall out of the way one time in a real tight spot that I could have snuck through on the bike. My buddy likes the snow bike sport and he wants to have both, but like a lot of folks can't afford both. So he's selling it to go back to a sled next season. All the maintenance associated with the bike was the deal breaker on which way he was going to keep going.
I have two sleds, a dirt bike, and (gasp!) two of those race quad thingys that Ben so strongly disapproves of. The sled and quads take more skill and effort to be ridden at a high level than the bike does IMO. If I had to get rid of something though the bike would be the first to go. I just don't enjoy it as much. Maybe I like the challenge of the sled and quads like some guys like the challenge of a 2stroke snowbike, or maybe I just like what I like?
Like Ben said, I think he was painting some pretty broad generalizations of what's best and for who with his limited exposure to the snow (western) side of things. If he was close and hell bent on bike and snowbike superiority I might challenge him to a friendly powersports duel
haha. All in good fun of course.
J
Jaynelson
Well-known member
It's a tough one....it's easy to say that "they" "should" build a factory snowbike of some type. But if you think about....no one (bike co. or sled co.) really has the right motor, or frame currently. So the thing would need to be a ground-up design, other than the rear end/skid. Given that...
Is there REALLY a big enough market for such a thing? Take out the guys who won't give up their sleds. Take out the guys who have a dirt bike regardless and part of the appeal was increasing its year-round-ness. Take out the guys who can't afford/don't want to afford 2 expensive power sports items (of any combination). Do you think the market is really large enough? I'm not sure.
Take myself for example. I have just enough snow bike time to know that it's a blast....coming from years of fairly hectic single track dirtbike riding you figure it out pretty quick. Love it, want one. But I also ride a sled in the mountains at an above-average level....safe to say I will ride a sled anywhere that a ho-hum/average snowbike rider will take their bike, and some big-mountain places they simply won't have the jam for in certain conditions. So I don't want to give the sled up...because the sled is fun to ride as well, particularly on the occasional ridiculous powder day. The sled is also much more versatile....can pack stuff/tow a skimmer for overnight trips, can double my girl if needed, can bring ski gear if needed. So it's hard to give that flexibility up.
So could I swing a kit to go on the dirtbike I already own as a bonus winter unit...but couldn't commit the dollars to 2 expensive, dedicated winter toys. I think that's part of the appeal of the current snowbike kits. I totally get wanting a turn-key solution, I just don't know if you attract enough new buyers for it to be worth it. They probably make more profit margin on the current kits than they would on a full package too boot...
Is there REALLY a big enough market for such a thing? Take out the guys who won't give up their sleds. Take out the guys who have a dirt bike regardless and part of the appeal was increasing its year-round-ness. Take out the guys who can't afford/don't want to afford 2 expensive power sports items (of any combination). Do you think the market is really large enough? I'm not sure.
Take myself for example. I have just enough snow bike time to know that it's a blast....coming from years of fairly hectic single track dirtbike riding you figure it out pretty quick. Love it, want one. But I also ride a sled in the mountains at an above-average level....safe to say I will ride a sled anywhere that a ho-hum/average snowbike rider will take their bike, and some big-mountain places they simply won't have the jam for in certain conditions. So I don't want to give the sled up...because the sled is fun to ride as well, particularly on the occasional ridiculous powder day. The sled is also much more versatile....can pack stuff/tow a skimmer for overnight trips, can double my girl if needed, can bring ski gear if needed. So it's hard to give that flexibility up.
So could I swing a kit to go on the dirtbike I already own as a bonus winter unit...but couldn't commit the dollars to 2 expensive, dedicated winter toys. I think that's part of the appeal of the current snowbike kits. I totally get wanting a turn-key solution, I just don't know if you attract enough new buyers for it to be worth it. They probably make more profit margin on the current kits than they would on a full package too boot...
Oh you absolutely can! One isn't a replacement for the other IMO. Snow bikes and sleds do different things better from each other. Last weekend my buddy had his Timbersled kitted 2017 KX 450 up riding with us on our sleds. It takes less effort to ride, cut whichever way you want to go on off-camber terrain, and is faster knifing through the tight trees. In deep snow it was all it wanted to pack me around 2nd gear rung out. Climbing was not its forte compared to the sleds (as most folks know). Making the step-up jump at the top of the hill my 900 had to be wound out for was also out of the question. My sled is routinely covered in "tree glitter" and I had to stop and cut some deadfall out of the way one time in a real tight spot that I could have snuck through on the bike. My buddy likes the snow bike sport and he wants to have both, but like a lot of folks can't afford both. So he's selling it to go back to a sled next season. All the maintenance associated with the bike was the deal breaker on which way he was going to keep going.
I have two sleds, a dirt bike, and (gasp!) two of those race quad thingys that Ben so strongly disapproves of. The sled and quads take more skill and effort to be ridden at a high level than the bike does IMO. If I had to get rid of something though the bike would be the first to go. I just don't enjoy it as much. Maybe I like the challenge of the sled and quads like some guys like the challenge of a 2stroke snowbike, or maybe I just like what I like?
Like Ben said, I think he was painting some pretty broad generalizations of what's best and for who with his limited exposure to the snow (western) side of things. If he was close and hell bent on bike and snowbike superiority I might challenge him to a friendly powersports duel
Ha, I will tone down my rhetoric on what I feel/think/know what is best, and what is not, with regards to my highly regarded opinions. At the very least, I always feel like I have furthered the discussion when others react as I like to tease out what others are thinking or we're just left with being able to read nothing-and we all come to SnoWest to read, learn, solve problems and be entertained.
It is hard to debate (as there really is NO debating) the majority mindlessness of all the sheeple that are thumbing around on ATV's and snowmobiles and even the masses on streetbikes, to then compare them to ATV racers, mountain sled riders and guys who dirtbike. There is no question in my mind that those of us who have found and post on SnoWest are the top of the line-riders/machine operators, and not the trail trout that occupy 99% of the land we all ride on. It is no problem to me, not at all. I could not care less about anyone else's skill level. I just know that those people are not going to be captured by an easy to ride snowbike any more than they are going to get on one of those "Easy to ride" snowmobiles and start riding groomed trails. "It is always relative"-is the key term here.
When it comes down to it, I really like, no, make that, LOVE, anything with a motor and can move me. A 12V PowerWheels plastic Barbie ATV going slower than walking would be fun when it comes down to it, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
It really is all in good fun.
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I just can't let this one go. Your signature sums it all up...you've been raised on sleds and quads (thingys) so obviously you're partial and biased towards them.
I suspect you are a much better sled and quad driver than a 2 stroke snow bike or mx rider?
Up here in New England, where unless one has written permission to ride off-trail, we can't just find powder areas like you guys have out west so at least from a North East US perspective-which is all I have, the/a purpose built snowbike is just not going to make it.
The very few who have access to places to ride the snowbike will get on with the conversion kits but anything more than that, I think it would be a very, very tough sell up here.
As it is, the enduro bike-that Beta slapped some lights on to make it a dual sport (and now a triple sport with the Camso DTS 129 kit I slapped on it) and that was tuned for off-road riding, is already 100% incredible in the snow and I have no want or need for anything more. I don't need better braking, handling or power. All I need to do is ride it. With that said, I would not need a purpose built bike.
The very few who have access to places to ride the snowbike will get on with the conversion kits but anything more than that, I think it would be a very, very tough sell up here.
As it is, the enduro bike-that Beta slapped some lights on to make it a dual sport (and now a triple sport with the Camso DTS 129 kit I slapped on it) and that was tuned for off-road riding, is already 100% incredible in the snow and I have no want or need for anything more. I don't need better braking, handling or power. All I need to do is ride it. With that said, I would not need a purpose built bike.
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The problem for me is that I want a purpose built snowbike. I don't put the wheels on my 520 BB KTM 450 SXF. Some of the best dirt bike riding is in the spring. The problem is that is also prime snow riding time in Idaho. I usually ride into late May or even early June. I may buy the new Yamaha Tenere World Raid 700 adventure bike when Yamaha finally releases it. I sold my 16 Axys Pro when I started riding the snowbike. Good decision but a purpose built snowbike like I described earlier would be perfect for me. The bike is easier to ride, easier on my body and a total blast but I would be first in line for a purpose built snowbike with 100 horsepower and a CVT tranny.
OEM Purpose Built
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Raptor Shocks/ Raptor front end guy work at Polaris before he went out on his own. I'm sure he was on one of the big three's pay rolls developing a one ski machine, well two ski's but you get my drift, and where I'm going, in those back sheds and R&D departments I'm sure they have been milling and designing, but it will all come down to dollars and cents. It would cost mega bucks to get a assembly line up and running to build a purpose built snowbike, and like every other big business they'll need a return on investment with in two years. I hope it does, but in the reality of it, there probably isn't even dollars in it for them. They would need to move like 10000 the first year, maybe more. The dedicated few will have one for sure, but the masses, the "trail" rider", probably won't be, and lets face it, thats where the money is for the big three.
Wish I were wrong, but being in industry as a QC guy, I get to see the big picture on project costs vs revenue, and lets face it, the people who make the calls, probably won't ride one, so they probably won't build it with out making the corporate bank accounts fatter.
Just my two cents, love the discussion.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Raptor Shocks/ Raptor front end guy work at Polaris before he went out on his own. I'm sure he was on one of the big three's pay rolls developing a one ski machine, well two ski's but you get my drift, and where I'm going, in those back sheds and R&D departments I'm sure they have been milling and designing, but it will all come down to dollars and cents. It would cost mega bucks to get a assembly line up and running to build a purpose built snowbike, and like every other big business they'll need a return on investment with in two years. I hope it does, but in the reality of it, there probably isn't even dollars in it for them. They would need to move like 10000 the first year, maybe more. The dedicated few will have one for sure, but the masses, the "trail" rider", probably won't be, and lets face it, thats where the money is for the big three.
Wish I were wrong, but being in industry as a QC guy, I get to see the big picture on project costs vs revenue, and lets face it, the people who make the calls, probably won't ride one, so they probably won't build it with out making the corporate bank accounts fatter.
Just my two cents, love the discussion.