Proposed Forest Plan released and it's UGLY

[newtrout]

Whatever. Some guys feel the need to make personal attacks instead of discussing like a man.

From my view we can either try to get the proposed Wilderness closed completely next year, or we could try to collaborate with you guys. WMC exists and has facilitated a fairly significant coalition behind the scenes that supports many of these ideas. I am the one here trying to have a conversation since others on this side think it is a waste of time. We offer respect and discussion of our differences and get what in return?

Asking you a valid question is not a 'personal attack' or 'bullying'. I may have been sarcastic, but that is only because I've asked you this question many times and you ignore it every time. You want to 'discuss this like a man'? Be honest. Answer the question: How bad is the problem of Wilderness trespass and skier/snowmobile conflict?

Thank you for making my point perfectly clear. There is a reason you won't answer that question: there isn't a significant problem with either snowmobile trespass or snowmobile/skier conflict.

I am very eager to sit down with the USFS and discuss this issue. The problem is that I don't really trust 'WMC' to be part of that conversation. Why? Because of your emails to the USFS where you dig up a 3-year old Youtube video and try and portray it as evidence of trespass; because of emails and statements you've given to the USFS where you deliberately make these problems out to be so much worse than they actually are; because you choose to publicly belittle the efforts of the snowmobile community to improve signage, self-police and educate.

You say, 'What about trying to respect others, even though you may disagree, and trying honest dialogue?'. If you're willing to follow your own advice, then I'll sit down with you.

 

[Carbon77]

Well kid, as they say, I was skiing these peaks when you were pissin' your diapers. As well, I was skiing these peaks before snowmobiles went up there, as were others that I know. My new snomo could go to the summits, but I am not interested, like some guys here are not interested in skitouring. Besides I am often hauling people to go skiing. And I am not here saying snomos should not have any high summits or offroad terrain. But I am trying to point out the issues, and trying to convince you guys to discuss and collaborate.

It could be too late, but discussion and collaboration could help us all. USFS just does not want to deal with this. We were not asking for Wilderness and are not aware of other Organizations really going after it. But we suspect the pressure to control snowmobiles in Wilderness was a factor here.

Why so ignorant? You got a case of aidsbats for sure.

 

[winter brew]

I'll ask again WMC....how can I join? I know alot of sledders that would like to join your ranks to help "discuss" and "collaborate" with sledder groups as you state is your wish. We can all get together with the forest service to help form a use plan that better serves a WMC with many more and diverse members that use the area of concern.
Or do you really not want to work with sledders?

 

[blindman]

so much for you not doing the namecalling thing

Well kid, as they say, I was skiing these peaks when you were pissin' your diapers. As well, I was skiing these peaks before snowmobiles went up there, as were others that I know. My new snomo could go to the summits, but I am not interested, like some guys here are not interested in skitouring. Besides I am often hauling people to go skiing. And I am not here saying snomos should not have any high summits or offroad terrain. But I am trying to point out the issues, and trying to convince you guys to discuss and collaborate.

It could be too late, but discussion and collaboration could help us all. USFS just does not want to deal with this. We were not asking for Wilderness and are not aware of other Organizations really going after it. But we suspect the pressure to control snowmobiles in Wilderness was a factor here.

SO WHY BOB,, WHY OH WHY BOB, CAN YOU NOT ANSWER SIMPLE QUESTIONS???



ARE YOU ****ING RETARTED (sorry for the name calling !!sense we can now call each other names.... or is that only your choice.....)

OR DEAF???

WTF

wish I was in Leavenworth more often ......

 

[blindman]

CMON BOB

Well kid, as they say, I was skiing these peaks when you were pissin' your diapers. As well, I was skiing these peaks before snowmobiles went up there, as were others that I know. My new snomo could go to the summits, but I am not interested, like some guys here are not interested in skitouring. Besides I am often hauling people to go skiing. And I am not here saying snomos should not have any high summits or offroad terrain. But I am trying to point out the issues, and trying to convince you guys to discuss and collaborate.

LOOKS LIKE WE HAVE A PISSIN MATCH
LMAO

HEY BOB I WAS HIKING THOSE HILLS BEFORE YOUR DAD COULD GET IT UP!!!

PATTY GO EASY...1963

I GOT PICS....YOU????

 

[shmuckaluck]

Hey guys,
As i sit here and read all this stuff, I want to comment but can't, I don't know enough about it all. I am not involved as deeply as I should be, to enjoy the sport as much as I do and do nothing to fight for it is lame. But I am afraid I am the majority. Out of all the guys I ride with I can't say I know any that are involved in fighting for the sport, (just enjoying it). If the majority of riders got involved (like I should) then we could have a shot at keeping these areas. I should get off my ***.

 

[paulharris]

With all due respect, if only the sledders arguing on this thread would band together, get organized and focus their energy on calling, writing, and meeting with the FS we could be making a lot of headway on making some changes to this C.O.W forest plan. It CAN happen. Where i currently live in Colorado (i am from WA) we have been going through a forest plan revision and we have just successfully made some big changes in favor of snowmobilers. This has taken involvement of clubs and individual snowmobilers working with the FS. It will take involvement of WSSA, SAWS, and a lot of individual snowmobilers but it absolutely can happen. if you sit back and do nothing or think someone else is doing it all, these areas are gone forever....its as simple as that.

 

[WMC]

This is a discussion. I came on here to try to get the 'sides' together, you can easily confirm the arrangements that WMC made last year to try to get this meeting set up. WMC will mostly bring folks together, you all know the position of WMC or can easily see it in the Proposal. I do believe that we have some things in common, and some disagreement- that is life.

Newt, the issue has been discussed about snomo Wilderness trespass in depth. There is a lot of evidence, a lot more than I bring in, from several sources. When I go up there and see no snomo tracks in the Wilderness, when there are no other reports being sent in then I will say 'great job, thank you!" Why do you think USFS DFPR is moving forward toward Wilderness with that area- the area of the WMC Proposal that has been discussed? If there were no problem USFS would not bother, and WMC would not exist.

Some folks seem to get angry over nothing- a discussion- hard to imagine that such hair-trigger folks hold a job or stay out of jail. I guess it is the internet thing.

So Wendell what is up with you- do you want to threaten more, talk about assaulting someone with a different opinion? Yea, real bright Wendell. Do you or others want to shut up folks that you do not agree with- with aggression? It will not work, and what country do we live in anyway?

This is a discussion. I just came on here to try to get the 'sides' together, you can easily confirm the arrangements that WMC made last year to try to get this meeting set up. WMC will mostly bring folks together, you all know the position of WMC or can easily see it in the Proposal.

It is tough for USFS to resolve a lot of this, and our talk of trying for collaboration is well-liked by many we have talked with in USFS. That is why I am here trying to talk to you guys.

Anyone who wants to talk about getting the 'sides' together productively may email wenatcheemountainscoalition@hotmail.com

Aside from that, there is no need for WMC to be here, the purpose was to try for dialogue and get the 'sides' together.

 

[WMC]

You hardly ever actually answer the questions that are seriously asked though, which makes it hard for us.

It seems like you got my points. However, have you ever actually tried to talk to a snowmobiler in your particular area without coming off as a pompous dickhead? This isn't a joke either (surprisingly it is really easy to come off as a dickhead, as you've probably seen from my posts), all it usually takes is a friendly "hello" and a nice conversation and all the sudden you've accomplished exactly what all your hard work on the internet has in a matter of seconds. Not to mention the people you talk to in the field, guess what? They are the same people that frequent that particular area as often as you.... Over and over, weekly throughout the season. Since you are more concerned about your particular zone than the user group as a whole, maybe you should start with this and work on collaborating at the base level.

Part of the reason these issues come up is because folks don't just go say hi and communicate. There might be isolated instances where that doesn't work, but for the most part it does. The other part, maybe just good old fashion hatred between groups.

Suspecting that pressure to control snomo's in the wilderness was part of the issue? So the logic is to make more of the area that people actually snowmobile in right now wilderness, in the real world that just means more people are going to break that boundary. Both unknowingly and knowingly. Doesn't seem like a great solution to me. Maybe if the FS was actually writing tickets and they were trying to generate extra revenue.....

I bet there are plenty of ways to help you "gain" back some skiing ground without just completely restricting whole regions. The idea of communicating with sledders you see in the mountains is one of the best ways I'd say.

Well karatorium, not harsh you have passion like many others, great. There are various kinds of BC skiing, for some it is all like hiking, some of us hike and downhill ski, some like you go big, all good. Yea I talk to other sledders and find them to be great folks. No the discussion does not go to these topics, not a fun discussion for anyone, folks from all sides often have disagreement one way or the other.

Thanks karatorium for the discussion and thanks for having a sense of humor at my response.

The groups and Organizations with the real $ and members that we work with may or may not want to work with your 'side,' but I wanted to try. The most likely scenario is that the groups will go forward with advocating something similar to what was done in Region 1 that closes the land to snomos when it is recommended for Wilderness. Again, I thought it worth a try to get a dialogue going with you guys, find some solution.

 

[yammadog]

I'm suggesting a private group for ongoing constructive planning. WMC adds nothing to the conversation but additional "created" conflict. He's here poking his ski pole at us in the virtual world and you guys are reacting to his repetative chant. Do not engage with him, it's fruitless.

Our concern at this point is with the FS and the actions we need to take with them.

Just an FYI... this mornings paper. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2015516994_wolves06m.html

Seems the wolves have no problem with us riding the area...

 

[newtrout]

Newt, the issue has been discussed about snomo Wilderness trespass in depth. There is a lot of evidence, a lot more than I bring in, from several sources. When I go up there and see no snomo tracks in the Wilderness, when there are no other reports being sent in then I will say 'great job, thank you!" Why do you think USFS DFPR is moving forward toward Wilderness with that area- the area of the WMC Proposal that has been discussed? If there were no problem USFS would not bother, and WMC would not exist.

Other sources like the Cascade Backcountry Ski Patrol? Like their 8 reports from this year along the Wilderness boundary where they saw zero snowmobile tracks? Yes, I saw your email trying to explain why the Backcountry Ski Patrol was biased toward sleds. That didn't really sound like 'great job, thank you!', to me.

Why is the USFS moving forward with this? That is an excellent and confusing question. There is old evidence of snowmobile trespass. I would agree that it was a significant problem several years ago. That's my whole point. There are not current reports of trespass, other than the one that we provided this year. And you and other ski groups chose to try and use that against us. The problem is not what it once was. The USFS knows it. In fact, you and I both have the same email from the USFS that states exactly that....

The strangest part of this is that the Teanaway closure doesn't really accomplish anything. The Stafford area will still be nearly impossible to patrol. Beverly/Fourth will still be nearly impossible to patrol. The one action that actually makes a difference is self-policing within the snowmobile community. After this action by the USFS, explain why sledders would want to continue to help? This was a knife in the back.

You've got my email. I've accepted your offer to sit down and meet. Awaiting your reply.

 

[diamonddave]

He's here poking his ski pole at us in the virtual world and you guys are reacting to his repetative chant. Do not engage with him, it's fruitless.

Funny...I said the same exact thing last summer during the saga and Ruffy blasted me.

 

[ericbigbore]

How many of you have written e-mails to the Forrest Circus? I know I never post here anymore but this thread really pisses me off!

WMC -

You are completely full of crap and your arguments are pathetic, combative and self serving. You whine about more people moving in to "your" skiing area like there's some way to stop it. I grew up in Issaquah and remember when the first stop light went in next to the brand new Mc Donalds. As kids we thought wow, cool.

The next thing we knew is every Californian and their family showed up and Issaquah turned in to the S-hole it is today. Suddenly all of our dirt bike and mountain bike trails on Squak Mt, Tiger Mt and Grand ridge THAT WE BUILT AND MAINTAINED had hiker only signs on them because of a few elitists like your self. They organized and formed and extremist group called the Issaquah Alps Club. They shut us down to serve their self's. Some of these trails are now over grown.

Oh well, we lost that battle and that's life but we had no where to go so we moved up the Valley towards NB and the same thing happened over and over again. My point is, we had no where to go unlike you and your elitist group. You have miles of wilderness that is all yours, we have nothing exclusive and never will. You can't even ride motor bikes any where near Seattle and mountain bikes have been so condensed it is dangerous and the environmental impact on those very few select trails is not good with all of the rain we get and eventually the extremists like you will use that against them to shut down more terrain and it's easy for them to enforce.

On to the snow -

Your comments about how you were skiing these peaks while some of us were in diapers is a bullshi* statement that just proves what a self serving grumpy old trow back that you are. You have no idea who you are dealing with on this forum and there's nothing you can do about the "good ole days", of less people in Washington using the out doors, we all miss them and that's why the masses moved here.

As far as skiers and boarders VS snowmobiles, we are all the same! I grew up a hard core skier, skiing 80+ days a year, competing in free style and even held the number 1 ranking for years in air in the Pac NW in our league. I'm sure we have crossed paths several times. I would guess half of us started riding because of our skiing/boarding back round. I also remember the "good ole days" when there was a 5 min wait at chair 2 at Alpi for freshies all day long. Then people started moving here and the crowds came and the over zealous ski patrol closed the back country so they could tear it up first. So we did what the kids are doing today. Bought sleds and headed for the real back country with no rules and no crowds. This is the trend and it will not stop!!

Do you know what the big difference between population growth for us VS you selfish elitists are? YOU ALREADY HAVE PROTECTED AREAS, over 52 million acres in the Western USA alone. If you don't want to hear the noise go there!! Maybe you should protest to the FAA to keep jets from flying over your head in the wilderness so YOU can have your peace an quiet like the "good ole days"!!

You are starting a war you can't win!! All wilderness lines are completely voluntary for us to stay out as there is no way to enforce it. Do you want to see us ride anything we want??? Keep pushing and we will!!

My letter to the forest circus - Let's see yours!!

To whom it may concern,

The steps you are taking to close more riding areas for snowmobiles to pander to a very small percentage of elitists back country skiers has completely crossed the bias line by the forest Service. By your own study, snowmobiles are the second largest user group (13.9%) with a projected user increase of 350% by 2050 and you are attempting to close areas when there are already millions of acres land secured for this very small user group in Washington State with over 43 million acres in just the Western US.

Your studies will work very well for our up-coming law suit against this action if taken. We will fund raise and get as much money as needed from our very wealthy snowmobile community to end this discrimination. This action by the Forest Service could be enough for us to go after ALL wilderness areas in Washington which was, and is not our goal. If you close these areas for this tiny fraction of users, so small you can't even list it, we will deliver the biggest law suit threat to ALL wilderness in Washington. Our goal is to work with you, not against you.

Just by proposing this, I really do not think you have considered the ramifications of the ensuing war you are starting with these user groups. I also think you fail to understand that all restricted riding areas are completely voluntary as there is no way you, or anyone can police these areas, especially if we start riding all of them, and we will. You can not catch us period if we chose not to stop. Another huge failure on your part is to recognize that we have gone through great lengths to self police our own user group to stay out of these areas with public shame and confrontations. Your enforcement equals nothing. The intrusions in to closed areas (for now)is minimal and you know it. This will all change on a dime if you do not do what you ALL know is right at the Forest service and keep these areas open and look for more ares to open for all user groups. We will take matters in to our own hands and your efforts to prevent this will be futile and expensive and we all know your budget is tight and you can not stop us if we chose civil disobedience as our answer to your discrimination. We are very organized!!

You are creating a very dangerous situation for the public by condensing user groups with "your" expected growth rate of 350% by 2050 to less places to use OUR land. The conflicts between these user groups will become a major issue for the Forest service and we have huge numbers and are very tight knit as you know. We have been a very friendly, respectful, proactive, responsible user group that has volunteered countless hours of community service cleaning up after other user groups in the mountains and snow parks and hanging wilderness boundary signs. We have saved the Forest service countless man hours that we know are not in your budget. We have allowed our grooming funds to be used for all user groups to enjoy with zero support from back country skiers and boarders, not one dollar from them for grooming. We can only be pushed so far and we are at the tipping point and will not allow this fractional user group push us one more inch!!

You are knowingly considering discriminating against one user group due to your own bias with zero factual basis and we will not allow this to happen one way or another. Please consider the actual facts, not your own agenda or expect serous repercussions from the snowmobile community.

Respectfully - Eric Ellis

 

[winter brew]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the FS can't designate wilderness....only Congress can do this.
So we also need to send our opinions and suggestions to our congressmen/women.

https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml

 

[ruffryder]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the FS can't designate wilderness....only Congress can do this.
So we also need to send our opinions and suggestions to our congressmen/women.

https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml

That is correct, though I think it ends up being pretty likely as congress normally has little reason not to take action recommended by the FS.

 

[winter brew]

That is correct, though I think it ends up being pretty likely as congress normally has little reason not to take action recommended by the FS.

If they get enough feedback from their constituents in opposition to the FS plan, I think they might listen.....if they plan on getting re-elected.
Then again, we're dealing with politicians here...anymore it seems what the people want carries little weight

 

[paulharris]

in this case, the people that speak up (greenies) get what they want and the people that dont speak up (snowmobilers) get screwed. The C.O.W. forest plan is NOT a done deal....It is currently a "proposed action", NOT a decision!!! It is very likely that if people get involved changes can be made. Comment Deadline is August 29!!

 

[jacmmaxwell]

OK, I skimmed threw some of this and got the email from SAWS but is there a place to send comments?

I've never riden this area, but would like to. And who knows after these guys get board over there maybe they will come after my favorite places, and I understand we need to band together as a group if we want anything done.

Saws provided the use numbers and

The six top primary activities engaged in by visitors sampled in 2005 included—

· hunting (22.7 percent totaling 483,692 visits)
· snowmobiling (13.9 percent totaling 296,181 visits)
· hiking and walking (11.7 percent totaling 249,304 visits)
· developed camping (8.9 percent totaling 189,641 visits)
· backpacking (6.9 percent totaling 147,025 visits)
· viewing natural features (6.3 percent totaling 134,240 visits)”


There you have the FS opinion in a nutshell and why they feel there is a need for all of the new wilderness areas. Snowmobile use is “expected to increase by 350 percent by 2050”. Back country skiing has “low use for all three Forests”. Approximately 6% of forest visits are to current wilderness areas (129,900/2,130,800 = 6.1%).

It bothers me that the forest service even takes this stuff seriosly, when skiing was not even a measurable amount. The only two groups who are forced to " pay to recreate" and in the clear majority of the users, and despite that we are being pushed out of the woods.

This is why I and others get so upset, we can only use ... just guessing... 2-4% of public lands to ride on. I'm sorry that skiers don't like us, honestly I hate jetskiers on the lakes I fish and ski in. But I would never think to try to have them removed. Asking us to give up our passion is not a colaboration or a compromise... what are you all loseing?


Please newtrout if you have an email address or mailing address for someone listening please post it, SAWS normely has this type of stuff in there email but did not. I always coment and/or send a letter, and this time I feel it's needed.

I wish these meetings were not 150 or more miles away from me or I would attend.

 

[newtrout]

Here's the link to the public involvement page that is specific to the Forest Revision Plan: Public Involvement

Click on the 'contact us' link to get to the comment page. I think they are working on fixing the form, but you can email them here, also: r6_ewzplanrevision@fs.fed.us

 

[2Thetopp]

THANKS FOR BEING INVOLVED, I wasn't going to get into a seven page "discussion" with WMC again cause it's worthless and he's just trolling for abuse that he can use against us. Send letters, and lets get a plan going.