That track really washes out on the sidehills ah? Looks like it ended a little premature 
Project Skinny. or Pay Attention Cat
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That track really washes out on the sidehills ah? Looks like it ended a little premature
Gonna have to lower the bars even farther and put step/sidegrips on the side panels so I can stand on them to turn out, maybe some grips on the arms.
that looks amazing...good work!
C
Nice pics Wyo!
I wouldn't get too close to the underside of that overhang though.
I wouldn't get too close to the underside of that overhang though.
I never got the lowering the bars thing.....seems more like a practical joke created by a couple of those guys in the movies that put on clinics.
In that one pic you are forced to hunch over, losing your mechanical advantage over the sled.....I find it much easier to stand tall and be able to use your body weight.....no force required at all to hold a sidehill, even on a XP!....even one handed without legs flailing about with proper chassis setup. Someone explain this flawed theory of going back to lower bars....did that for the first 30 years of riding and all I got was a sore back from being hunched over.
In that one pic you are forced to hunch over, losing your mechanical advantage over the sled.....I find it much easier to stand tall and be able to use your body weight.....no force required at all to hold a sidehill, even on a XP!....even one handed without legs flailing about with proper chassis setup. Someone explain this flawed theory of going back to lower bars....did that for the first 30 years of riding and all I got was a sore back from being hunched over.
I never got the lowering the bars thing.....seems more like a practical joke created by a couple of those guys in the movies that put on clinics.
In that one pic you are forced to hunch over, losing your mechanical advantage over the sled.....I find it much easier to stand tall and be able to use your body weight.....no force required at all to hold a sidehill, even on a XP!....even one handed without legs flailing about with proper chassis setup. Someone explain this flawed theory of going back to lower bars....did that for the first 30 years of riding and all I got was a sore back from being hunched over.
Thats because an xp will never sidehill something that steep, no need to get your weight on the front.
It is real simple, If you put to much weight on the track or it gets to steep the sled will wash out. With taller bars -- when it gets real steep and the nose is pointed uphill you would be hanging off the bars and if your feet are on the running board you are putting more pressure on the rear of the track. Thus it will wash out, with lower bars you can put more weight on the front of the sled and maintain or recover from a washout. It makes a huge difference, I have proven it. The only ones that argue are those that have never hit that limit (any xp, pc, or yami rider) The M wont even hold a sidehill like this one but close, the pro is really close but would need a kmod to be fair.
Tall bars= skis up low bars=you decide where they go.
I would like the bars to be just a tad lower but I like being able to raise them if I want. Even where they are now (2 1/4" lower) I never felt the need to raise them. I know tons of people that look at me funny when I get on there M and lower the bars all the way. Then go do what they say it can't do, then make some excuse as to why I have an advantage. The few that started dropping the bars havent raised them back up and have less excuses.
I have got to say Wyo if that is what you call steep sidehilling I am pretty disappointed. We were up at Baker yesterday in spring snow and my un-sidehilling Freeride cut sidehills steeper than that little bump you were working and about 5 times as long. There are a lot of small avalanches up there right now and those spots are tough and chunky and it even cut right though them. My buddy on his Pro(who is a better rider than me) had more trouble with the avy fields. I don't think the Pro likes the wet snow much. I know video makes every thing look easy but you have been up to Baker I think, those faces on the west side of Salad bowl on the way in are much steeper than your bump. It's even worse when I think of all the work you have done to your sled and my un side hilling Freeride is pretty stock.
It sounds like you need to get around some good riders on properly setup XP's.
Not to sound argumentive here....slow day at work, just good debate I hope-
I'm not seeing how the height of the bars move the rider forward.....especially with a vertical post. The physics just isn't there. Foot position has a bigger impact on moving rider weight to the front of the sled, and with bars tall you can move your feet forward without hunching over nearly as much...unless your 4'10".
All you do (with lower bars) is lose leverage so you have to exert more effort to input the same amount of force.
If it works for you, great! Can't argue with results....but I would ask why was it so popular for everyone to add height to their bars and mfr's to go with taller bars. If low was clearly better it never would have changed.
I know what you're saying, and I know a couple guy that have lowered their bars....I have also watched their riding suffer and they are clearly working a lot harder. I just havn't SEEN the claimed benefits.
Of course there is a sensible limit for bar height....some are so tall it seems a bit rediculous....for me, stock or 1-2" over stock is about right on the current mtn sleds.
I have had the opportunity to ride with what I consider some of THE best mountain riders out there....not a single one of them does not have bars slightly higher than stock....regardless of the brand of sled they are on.
And I agree with Matte on the assessment of the terrain. Looks like a fun area for sure though!
Not to sound argumentive here....slow day at work, just good debate I hope-
I'm not seeing how the height of the bars move the rider forward.....especially with a vertical post. The physics just isn't there. Foot position has a bigger impact on moving rider weight to the front of the sled, and with bars tall you can move your feet forward without hunching over nearly as much...unless your 4'10".
All you do (with lower bars) is lose leverage so you have to exert more effort to input the same amount of force.
If it works for you, great! Can't argue with results....but I would ask why was it so popular for everyone to add height to their bars and mfr's to go with taller bars. If low was clearly better it never would have changed.
I know what you're saying, and I know a couple guy that have lowered their bars....I have also watched their riding suffer and they are clearly working a lot harder. I just havn't SEEN the claimed benefits.
Of course there is a sensible limit for bar height....some are so tall it seems a bit rediculous....for me, stock or 1-2" over stock is about right on the current mtn sleds.
I have had the opportunity to ride with what I consider some of THE best mountain riders out there....not a single one of them does not have bars slightly higher than stock....regardless of the brand of sled they are on.
And I agree with Matte on the assessment of the terrain. Looks like a fun area for sure though!
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Brew I have had a hard time getting my head around the low bars thing too. A lot of the guys are 5'8" or so and I would think the sleds are sold stock to fit a 5'10-6' so I get that but Wyo is as tall as I am 6'4". Dan Adams is having a signature bar made up and it is low with cut marks so you can set the width to your liking. I asked him about the low rise. He explained that the sled manufacturers are doing everything to get the weight lower and centralized and the low bars do the same thing with the rider weight which is such a big part of overall weight. I asked him about the leverage aspect. He said any advantage in leverage the rider gets over the sled the sled gets over the rider too. I am running 2" more than stock, I like it but again I am quite a bit taller than the average guy. On very steep climbs or steep downhill sidehills I would like lower bars every where else it fits me good.
Matte,
What it looks like and what is is just that. The head cam does not do justice, If you pause the vid when I look back, you can see how steep it is. Lets see your headcam vids. Maybe you will have a better setup I can copy to get a better video.
BTW, I rarely ride open stuff its usually steep and in the trees
Your putting down more hp at that elevation too which does help.
WinterB,
I started low a few years back and went up with the bars and it was better, then I went way up with my 09 m1000 (6") and couldn't ride worth a darn, so I kept dropping it down. I wound up putting in an adjustable for different terrain and ran it all the way down for steep stuff or up 1 or 2 clicks and up for trail.
What I have noticed is if the sled isn't capable of holding it on the steep I like the bars taller, but when it gets steeper and the sled will hold I want them down. I can tell a huge difference on the PC from stock to lower with it narrower. The stock PC you don't notice because it is limited with the width, as is the xp. The first time I rode a pro I wanted them lower. This all is stuff I experienced from riding, NOT from someone telling me. In fact I never heard anyone say it until after I had it figured out.
My old TM8 was one you really needed down to keep your weight on the nose. The more power makes it so you can really point the sled up hill and go sideways. If your hanging off the bars it will just try and go up. With tall bars and as steep of stuff that I ride, if I stood at the front of the boards I would be bent over the bars even worse. Low bars I don't have to bend around the bars and keep the weight in a better location.
I would love to ride with someone that could school me on a xp, I don't think its going to happen the way I ride but I would still love to see it, always open to learning.
I had some guys on xp's trying and when going up it wasn't bad but when going across or down hill it was a chit show, washing out, rolling it, you can literally watch the boards and body hanging up and causing the track to lift or push the sled flat.
What it looks like and what is is just that. The head cam does not do justice, If you pause the vid when I look back, you can see how steep it is. Lets see your headcam vids. Maybe you will have a better setup I can copy to get a better video.
BTW, I rarely ride open stuff its usually steep and in the trees
Your putting down more hp at that elevation too which does help.
WinterB,
I started low a few years back and went up with the bars and it was better, then I went way up with my 09 m1000 (6") and couldn't ride worth a darn, so I kept dropping it down. I wound up putting in an adjustable for different terrain and ran it all the way down for steep stuff or up 1 or 2 clicks and up for trail.
What I have noticed is if the sled isn't capable of holding it on the steep I like the bars taller, but when it gets steeper and the sled will hold I want them down. I can tell a huge difference on the PC from stock to lower with it narrower. The stock PC you don't notice because it is limited with the width, as is the xp. The first time I rode a pro I wanted them lower. This all is stuff I experienced from riding, NOT from someone telling me. In fact I never heard anyone say it until after I had it figured out.
My old TM8 was one you really needed down to keep your weight on the nose. The more power makes it so you can really point the sled up hill and go sideways. If your hanging off the bars it will just try and go up. With tall bars and as steep of stuff that I ride, if I stood at the front of the boards I would be bent over the bars even worse. Low bars I don't have to bend around the bars and keep the weight in a better location.
I would love to ride with someone that could school me on a xp, I don't think its going to happen the way I ride but I would still love to see it, always open to learning.
I had some guys on xp's trying and when going up it wasn't bad but when going across or down hill it was a chit show, washing out, rolling it, you can literally watch the boards and body hanging up and causing the track to lift or push the sled flat.
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Yeah, that was as far as I was willing to go.
well it looks steep to me...and i didn;t see anyone else playing on it."sidehilling".and i can;t see a person posting a vid to prove themselves wrong...it just boils down to differant strokes for differant folks..lol..
A few of my fav's....tough to judge the steepness on camera.
The old "unsidehillable" '08 XP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EVQpswWSkc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrubPF9stY4&feature=relmfu
just for fun...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0uEjKV1atw
The old "unsidehillable" '08 XP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EVQpswWSkc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrubPF9stY4&feature=relmfu
just for fun...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0uEjKV1atw
This is off subject but man that place looks like fun. Would love to come ride up in your area next season. Looks like a blast good snow and fun trees to ride in!
wow...winterbrew...dang those were three sweet vids...can see you have alot of skill there as well
Wbrew, the first two are ok, the third rocks, lol
On a close to 60* slope your not going to do sidehill uphill donut, and those are about 45* hills or less.
And I never said the xp wont sidehill, it does about as good as the stock PC, (pc being better IMO but they both suck IMO too) but when it gets steep it will not hang.
Its a good argument and you can call me cocky or whatever, but I will have to be proven wrong in person with my sled before MO changes. Seeing how I am the only one with a narrow PC I am the one that holds the most ground factually speaking. Anytime anyone wants to see first hand what I'm talking about, lets ride.
Unless someone buys it first.
On a close to 60* slope your not going to do sidehill uphill donut, and those are about 45* hills or less.
And I never said the xp wont sidehill, it does about as good as the stock PC, (pc being better IMO but they both suck IMO too) but when it gets steep it will not hang.
Its a good argument and you can call me cocky or whatever, but I will have to be proven wrong in person with my sled before MO changes. Seeing how I am the only one with a narrow PC I am the one that holds the most ground factually speaking. Anytime anyone wants to see first hand what I'm talking about, lets ride.
Unless someone buys it first.
creek jump was awesome!
Brew those are some great videos. I think video shot by someone other than the rider shows the difficulty of the terrain and rider skill so much better than helmet cam video. A camera mounted on a pole behind the rider is much better than helmet cams too.
Wyo that bump isn't 60 degrees either. 60 degrees looks nearly vertical. It might be 50 right as you round that shoulder but that's maybe 10 feet of travel. I'm not saying I'm a better rider than you(I'm not) but when you make blanket statements about the XP you sound ignorant.
Wyo that bump isn't 60 degrees either. 60 degrees looks nearly vertical. It might be 50 right as you round that shoulder but that's maybe 10 feet of travel. I'm not saying I'm a better rider than you(I'm not) but when you make blanket statements about the XP you sound ignorant.
Getting defensive,
I made the same statement about the PC, I have ridden them both. I have felt the difference and the hindering factors. Again since I am the only one that knows the benefit of changing the width of any sled to the skinnier side. It is your statement that is ignorant. I'm not trying to be a dick, its just a fact. Weather or not the video proves anything or not it doesn't change the fact what I did helped the performance and would of either sled.
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I applaud your experimentation and reports! We need more of that....I have seen almost everything that was done to make the XP into an XM done by individuals on many XP's as much as 3 years ago....Don't think Cat isn't watching and taking notes.
Not every experiment goes well, but that's how we learn! When it goes as planned like your narrowing of the bellypan, I think that's great! Good job!
Not every experiment goes well, but that's how we learn! When it goes as planned like your narrowing of the bellypan, I think that's great! Good job!
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