T
I am looking at purchasing a mid-sized sled for my 8 year old son. Do members have any reviews on the Premier sleds? Apparantly they were introduced as a 200 and 300, but now they are offered with a 350 EFI in 2015.
Premier 350 Enforcer
- Thread starter Tryingtogetby
- Start date
I talked with the fellas a few years ago in Lake Geneva. Nice family, the sleds seem to fit the bill. I was actually impressed.
M
I'd like to post some comments here to get this thread going again becuase I am very interested in a sled like this for my kids and I'd like to know if anyone has some good info on Premier.
I've been talking to Chris Bell of Premier these last few weeks about their plan to release a 2015 sled (Enforcer 350) and I'm still not sure about putting my money down based on Premier's past history. That said, I never got involved with Premier in their earlier attempted launches and I don't know whether anyone has ever lost money with them. I personally don't know of anyone and until someone affected speaks up about their experience, all the negative posts I read on other forums is just hearsay.
In fairness to Chris, he has been very accommodating in answering my questions and addressing my concerns. He seems genuinely certain that Premier will bring a sled to market in 2015. Also, he's done a pretty good job of explaining the reasons for past setbacks, citing problems with vendors, and discontinued key components as reasons for troubles.
On the other hand, I've also spoken to a potential buyer with much more at stake (read between the lines here) who've said that in their opinion, they're not convinced that Premier will make good on their promise to deliver sleds in 2015. I should also point out that this source did not even know about Premier's plans for a 2015 sled release (even though Premier's website still boasts about the relationship between Premier and the source).
I'm somewhat local to the source mentioned above, so it didn't (and still doesn't) sit well with me that Premier would be willing to take my money for a spring order sled, even though doing so would mean that they would not be protecting a more important customer. Why would they do that?
I have no idea what Premier's books look like, how many employees they have, how they plan to pay their people, what sort of manufacturing capability they have, or even whether they have the assets to make their plans a reality in 2015. I want to believe this sled will come to market, and I would buy one if it did. But it's difficult for me to pull the trigger given Premier's storied past, and so that is why I'm hoping someone will read this and write something to convince me that Premier is for real this time. Looking for factual info, not speculation.
I've been talking to Chris Bell of Premier these last few weeks about their plan to release a 2015 sled (Enforcer 350) and I'm still not sure about putting my money down based on Premier's past history. That said, I never got involved with Premier in their earlier attempted launches and I don't know whether anyone has ever lost money with them. I personally don't know of anyone and until someone affected speaks up about their experience, all the negative posts I read on other forums is just hearsay.
In fairness to Chris, he has been very accommodating in answering my questions and addressing my concerns. He seems genuinely certain that Premier will bring a sled to market in 2015. Also, he's done a pretty good job of explaining the reasons for past setbacks, citing problems with vendors, and discontinued key components as reasons for troubles.
On the other hand, I've also spoken to a potential buyer with much more at stake (read between the lines here) who've said that in their opinion, they're not convinced that Premier will make good on their promise to deliver sleds in 2015. I should also point out that this source did not even know about Premier's plans for a 2015 sled release (even though Premier's website still boasts about the relationship between Premier and the source).
I'm somewhat local to the source mentioned above, so it didn't (and still doesn't) sit well with me that Premier would be willing to take my money for a spring order sled, even though doing so would mean that they would not be protecting a more important customer. Why would they do that?
I have no idea what Premier's books look like, how many employees they have, how they plan to pay their people, what sort of manufacturing capability they have, or even whether they have the assets to make their plans a reality in 2015. I want to believe this sled will come to market, and I would buy one if it did. But it's difficult for me to pull the trigger given Premier's storied past, and so that is why I'm hoping someone will read this and write something to convince me that Premier is for real this time. Looking for factual info, not speculation.
C
I still can't figure out why one of the big 4 OEM's don't offer a 2/3's size sled option for new / young riders - maybe demand isn't suffice. The Premier idea looks great but seems like they have been trying for years to no avail.
Personally, I think that if Yamaha got off its *** and released an updated Sno Sport (25- 35 hp single cal 4 stroke) it would be a great beginner sled - may not be a big money maker but would likely build brand loyalty at an early age.
Biggest issue for Premier or any of the 4 OEM's seems to be abundance of older 250 to 340 cc sleds that can be had for cheap - $1000 sled + $1000 in mods and you have a pretty decent entry sled with dependable & cheap parts supply.
Personally, I think that if Yamaha got off its *** and released an updated Sno Sport (25- 35 hp single cal 4 stroke) it would be a great beginner sled - may not be a big money maker but would likely build brand loyalty at an early age.
Biggest issue for Premier or any of the 4 OEM's seems to be abundance of older 250 to 340 cc sleds that can be had for cheap - $1000 sled + $1000 in mods and you have a pretty decent entry sled with dependable & cheap parts supply.
A dealer in my area has a snow scoot in very good condition. He only wants $4,500.00 for it. No joke, I think the salesman was literally embarrassed to tell me the price.
E
why shake the dice? find a clean freestyle 300 buy it for 2k to 3k keep it 4 yrs and sell it for 2k to 3k with a waiting list of dads with cash in hand .
I would think BRP would just import some of there lynx 300s
I would think BRP would just import some of there lynx 300s
I've found a very clean freestyle for $3,000.00. I have about a dozen pictures and it looks new. Original owner and they guess that it has less than 200 miles. I'm a little hesitant purchasing sight unseen but it's in the East and I'm in the West. Shipping is going to be another $650.00. Still undecided.
M
I agree with all of the comments posted here.
Couch: Chris Bell at Premier feels pretty confident that none of the big 4 will build a 3/4 size sled. I got the sense that he believes the reason is not because they're worried about the liability, but because they would need to get almost as much as a new full size sled for them and given the cost, He believes the big 4 doesn't think they could sell enough of them to make it worth their while.
When you consider what Premier says they are going to bring to market (30-35 hp 4-stroke, liquid cooled, EFI motor, 12.5 x 108 x 1 track, torsionless rear and double a-arm front suspension with pretty decent shocks, push-button (servo) reverse, gates style final drive, 6.5 gallon fuel tank, etc.) you are getting a lot of sled for $6K. But still everyone I talk to says that's too much for a kid's sled ... which kinda makes Chris Bell's point that Premier is taking advantage of a niche market that the big 4 doesn't want.
I've already got a snosport that my son rides, and I've been seriously looking into modding it. Started getting prices late this winter. New motor (28 hp "Hirth F-33" with 30mm 1:10 taper PTO, recoil start, single CDI, cooling fan with engine shrouds, slide carb, tuned pipe, and 50W generator) comes in at $3K. New rear skid (Timbersled 120 rails, front/rear arms, wheels, drivers, 12.25 x 121 x 1.75 track and tunnel pieces) quoted at almost $4K. That's without clutches, a final drive and a bunch of modding to the front suspension and the tube chassis of the Snosport to make it all come together. So you can see the price for the Premier sled is starting to seem reasonable. I remember Chris Bell saying something like "You can't buy a new liquid cooled, fuel injected 4-stroke sled today for less than $8K" ... and the thing is he's right.
As for the freestyle 300, I agree 100% that they are a great fit for kids too big for the mini's but not ready for a full size sled. But just try to find a clean one that hasn't been used for racing. It's like trying to find a needle in a haystack. The Freestyle is even more rare than the Snoscoot or the Snosport.
I'm still on the fence about this, but time is running out on Premier's snow check deadline. Will let you know if I pull the trigger.
Couch: Chris Bell at Premier feels pretty confident that none of the big 4 will build a 3/4 size sled. I got the sense that he believes the reason is not because they're worried about the liability, but because they would need to get almost as much as a new full size sled for them and given the cost, He believes the big 4 doesn't think they could sell enough of them to make it worth their while.
When you consider what Premier says they are going to bring to market (30-35 hp 4-stroke, liquid cooled, EFI motor, 12.5 x 108 x 1 track, torsionless rear and double a-arm front suspension with pretty decent shocks, push-button (servo) reverse, gates style final drive, 6.5 gallon fuel tank, etc.) you are getting a lot of sled for $6K. But still everyone I talk to says that's too much for a kid's sled ... which kinda makes Chris Bell's point that Premier is taking advantage of a niche market that the big 4 doesn't want.
I've already got a snosport that my son rides, and I've been seriously looking into modding it. Started getting prices late this winter. New motor (28 hp "Hirth F-33" with 30mm 1:10 taper PTO, recoil start, single CDI, cooling fan with engine shrouds, slide carb, tuned pipe, and 50W generator) comes in at $3K. New rear skid (Timbersled 120 rails, front/rear arms, wheels, drivers, 12.25 x 121 x 1.75 track and tunnel pieces) quoted at almost $4K. That's without clutches, a final drive and a bunch of modding to the front suspension and the tube chassis of the Snosport to make it all come together. So you can see the price for the Premier sled is starting to seem reasonable. I remember Chris Bell saying something like "You can't buy a new liquid cooled, fuel injected 4-stroke sled today for less than $8K" ... and the thing is he's right.
As for the freestyle 300, I agree 100% that they are a great fit for kids too big for the mini's but not ready for a full size sled. But just try to find a clean one that hasn't been used for racing. It's like trying to find a needle in a haystack. The Freestyle is even more rare than the Snoscoot or the Snosport.
I'm still on the fence about this, but time is running out on Premier's snow check deadline. Will let you know if I pull the trigger.
6
I have seen this company in a few of the sled rags. The site claims that they are available in Canada and the US.
http://www.phantomsnowmobiles.com/index.html
While it looks like a complete copy of the Premiere machine, at least it is available. The Site even states that a LT version will be available.
Here is the rub, I have tried to contact them without a reply, and I have not been able to get the price point of this machine.
http://www.phantomsnowmobiles.com/index.html
While it looks like a complete copy of the Premiere machine, at least it is available. The Site even states that a LT version will be available.
Here is the rub, I have tried to contact them without a reply, and I have not been able to get the price point of this machine.
M
The phantom is a Chinese built sled with a smaller track (narrower and shorter) and a Chinese motor. The company making them is FMC Motor Co.
I don't know this for sure, but I think Premier originally worked with FMC to develop their sled. FMC was going to be the builder for Premier. I've read all sorts of speculation on why the deal went south, but whatever the reason, FMC decided to take the design and build it for someone else (Phantom). I think Phantom sleds go for about $5K USD.
I think a lot of the components that Premier is using on its sled are going to be the same, and maybe even come from FMC. But I don't know that ... Chris Bell wouldn't say. He did say that engine is made in Europe, and while he wouldn't disclose the builder, he said the motor is made by a company you would recognize. Premier knows all of their components (motor included) will be identifiable once they bring their sled to market, and they want their sled to make a good impression. Chris says this is the reason for a limited build the first year. They want to control the quality by building them in their facility in Michigan I'm told.
I don't know this for sure, but I think Premier originally worked with FMC to develop their sled. FMC was going to be the builder for Premier. I've read all sorts of speculation on why the deal went south, but whatever the reason, FMC decided to take the design and build it for someone else (Phantom). I think Phantom sleds go for about $5K USD.
I think a lot of the components that Premier is using on its sled are going to be the same, and maybe even come from FMC. But I don't know that ... Chris Bell wouldn't say. He did say that engine is made in Europe, and while he wouldn't disclose the builder, he said the motor is made by a company you would recognize. Premier knows all of their components (motor included) will be identifiable once they bring their sled to market, and they want their sled to make a good impression. Chris says this is the reason for a limited build the first year. They want to control the quality by building them in their facility in Michigan I'm told.
C
No real need to swap the skid - the stretched skids work fine and are a fairly cheap mod - used hacksaw track cut to 12.5" wide should hook up really well. I used a 121" 12.5" x 1.5" challenger track from timbersled and the sport has no problem spinning it in powder. Loads of floatation. Just add new plastic skis and better shock if you have the $.
The little Yamaha Sport 125 cc in stock form is as fast as a bravo 250 or 300 freestyle. Both of my Sports run at 50 km/h on the woods roads which is plenty fast for a kid. For a new sled 4 stroke would be nice and likely mandatory to adhere to epa / emissions - $3k for a new motor is a bit too rich for a mod for a kids sled.
While you can'y buy a new lq 4st efi sled for under $8K you can pick up low km phazers for $3500 - take the motor and part out the rest - still cheaper than a Hirth transplant (very light though) and you have one of the best 4 stroke motors available.
Unless the Chinese motor / parts are from an established vendor with high standards and proper QA then I would not buy - waaaay too many sub part low cost items manufactured off shore that just don't hold up .... go and ask any auto repair shop about the durability & quality of the "value" aftermarket stuff coming in - most will tell you to sped the extra for OEM rather than spend double on labour to fix again.
C
I have been watching these machines for a few years now, basically since they came out. I believe $5000-$5500 isn't too much for a mid size sled. The 120s are $3200 in Canada and what $2600 in USA.
HOWEVER... These Phantom and Premier sleds have not had any good reviews.
These reviews alone are enough for me to say no thanks. There's lots more to be read just used these as an example.
There was one for sale about 2.5 hrs from where I live and man that guy was absolutely disgusted with it.
Copy and pasted...
1- "Guys I've spoken to at the track have all said the phantoms are junk, always breaking due to cheap, flimsy, chinese parts that aren't built for snowcross. Too bad since the only other option when my 9 yr old is ready to move up a class, is to put him on a full size sled."
2- "I own a phantom 250, and there are not all that bad. My brother and i ride it hard, we have only had trouble with the limiter strap breaking and the chain guide hitting on the frame. both problems were fixed by one getting a stronger limiter strap, and grinding down the frame a bit. really not to bad for build quality, people say they are bad, well you cant talk till you have owned one. Its not like all the other machines are not made in china, in fact i was looking on the dealer website for phantoms and found Arctic Cats."
GRINDING THE FRAME ISN'T THAT BAD...
3-"I started watching this thread a year ago, just after I purchased one of the Phantom sleds for my kids. I'm going to give my opinion on the product overall, based on my experience.
I bought it based on displacement and cosmetics. Like a lot of poeple, my kids outgrew their 120's. The closest suitable size was the 250, or something they wouldn't get killed on if it got away on them.....and I wanted something new that I wasn't going to be working on all the time....so here we are with the Phantom.
The price was crazy expensive, but the salesman I bought it from was giving it raving reviews and showed me the one his own kid had. Of course, he's selling them, what did I expect; I know.
So $5000 later I'm going home with one. This is where my opinion starts, and is based on the price attached to them. This may differ slightly if they were less than half of what they're being sold for.
The fella's on here that give it raving reviews are either selling them, are friends with the owners, shareholders, have their kids in the race circuit and service after every race or are easy going back yard riders wieghing less than 100 lbs.
All due respect to Phantom trying to get a much needed product into circulation, but you need to look after ALL consumers, not just the areas of greater business.
These are definitley the equivelant of the 4-wheeled over seas variety, but everyone here knows this by now. After an electrical melt down in the ignition the first ride out, it had to be gone over after every ride. That being Electrical...connectors and such, skiis....linkage, shift mechanism linkage, as well as track/chasis.
I am pointing these out based on my experience, not what my buddies have told me nor what I read on another search. I'm mereley pointing out what you'll be looking forward to if you buy one.
With regards to performance... a good fit for my 8 yr old, not so much for my 10 yr old. Not the quickest 250 out there by any stretch.
Quality........no where near what they cost.
Long and short of it.......way to much money for the product, like double what it's worth. (Based on the models '12 and '13)
If you do take the plunge, keep your dealer close by and your wallet open.
My advise, spend your money on the proven machines and tune it down for your kids, it's proven to be cheaper for me......and no break downs on the trails.
As for me, I have a $5k paper weight."
HOWEVER... These Phantom and Premier sleds have not had any good reviews.
These reviews alone are enough for me to say no thanks. There's lots more to be read just used these as an example.
There was one for sale about 2.5 hrs from where I live and man that guy was absolutely disgusted with it.
Copy and pasted...
1- "Guys I've spoken to at the track have all said the phantoms are junk, always breaking due to cheap, flimsy, chinese parts that aren't built for snowcross. Too bad since the only other option when my 9 yr old is ready to move up a class, is to put him on a full size sled."
2- "I own a phantom 250, and there are not all that bad. My brother and i ride it hard, we have only had trouble with the limiter strap breaking and the chain guide hitting on the frame. both problems were fixed by one getting a stronger limiter strap, and grinding down the frame a bit. really not to bad for build quality, people say they are bad, well you cant talk till you have owned one. Its not like all the other machines are not made in china, in fact i was looking on the dealer website for phantoms and found Arctic Cats."
GRINDING THE FRAME ISN'T THAT BAD...
3-"I started watching this thread a year ago, just after I purchased one of the Phantom sleds for my kids. I'm going to give my opinion on the product overall, based on my experience.
I bought it based on displacement and cosmetics. Like a lot of poeple, my kids outgrew their 120's. The closest suitable size was the 250, or something they wouldn't get killed on if it got away on them.....and I wanted something new that I wasn't going to be working on all the time....so here we are with the Phantom.
The price was crazy expensive, but the salesman I bought it from was giving it raving reviews and showed me the one his own kid had. Of course, he's selling them, what did I expect; I know.
So $5000 later I'm going home with one. This is where my opinion starts, and is based on the price attached to them. This may differ slightly if they were less than half of what they're being sold for.
The fella's on here that give it raving reviews are either selling them, are friends with the owners, shareholders, have their kids in the race circuit and service after every race or are easy going back yard riders wieghing less than 100 lbs.
All due respect to Phantom trying to get a much needed product into circulation, but you need to look after ALL consumers, not just the areas of greater business.
These are definitley the equivelant of the 4-wheeled over seas variety, but everyone here knows this by now. After an electrical melt down in the ignition the first ride out, it had to be gone over after every ride. That being Electrical...connectors and such, skiis....linkage, shift mechanism linkage, as well as track/chasis.
I am pointing these out based on my experience, not what my buddies have told me nor what I read on another search. I'm mereley pointing out what you'll be looking forward to if you buy one.
With regards to performance... a good fit for my 8 yr old, not so much for my 10 yr old. Not the quickest 250 out there by any stretch.
Quality........no where near what they cost.
Long and short of it.......way to much money for the product, like double what it's worth. (Based on the models '12 and '13)
If you do take the plunge, keep your dealer close by and your wallet open.
My advise, spend your money on the proven machines and tune it down for your kids, it's proven to be cheaper for me......and no break downs on the trails.
As for me, I have a $5k paper weight."
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