But nobody is really willing to be content and deal with the shade you end up at....
to many "self entitlement" going on....even from hard core right wingers....They want it THEIR way not yours or mine.
politics and religion
- Thread starter ruffryder
- Start date
But nobody is really willing to be content and deal with the shade you end up at....
to many "self entitlement" going on....even from hard core right wingers....They want it THEIR way not yours or mine.
what the heck is this... ruffy starting a politics and religion thread while i have been banned! knock that off mister!
Why do we have to agree? How about working together to get to a point where we can both live with the decision?
This whole black vs white world view... the world is shades of gray... and green..
1 down, 50023 to go..
oh ruffy here we go again! sounds like relativism to me? i dont want to make this thread something you did not intend it to be so let me know if im heading the wrong direction. that being said i have a question. if, as you say, there is no black nor white(no ABSOLUTES if you will) how does one ever know how to define or recognize what fairness and justice are? to me relativism,as a way of thinking, nullifes any definition/concept of fairness/justice! just one example of the deficiencies of relativism.
Why does justice and fairness have to be an absolute? Aren't they shades of gray as well? I mean, fairness is largely impacted upon perception, which itself is really gray. Justice, I would say is pretty subjective as well.
Curious as to how you would define fairness and justice as absolutes? Care to give an example? (That way I can provide a witty retort!)
Why does justice and fairness have to be an absolute? Aren't they shades of gray as well? I mean, fairness is largely impacted upon perception, which itself is really gray. Justice, I would say is pretty subjective as well.
Curious as to how you would define fairness and justice as absolutes? Care to give an example? (That way I can provide a witty retort!)
well take for instance a thread you started(http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=179938)...your whole thesis violates relativism. because relativism says NO person is obliged, as you argue to the contrary in that thread, to act with respect to others. why because relativism is the mechanism which each individual deems what is right,wrong, fair, just etc. therefore each individual's idea will be different...in varying degrees obviously!
in your thread, posing the question of respect, you violate your own worldview. you basically infer that people OUGHT to respect others. how can you say there are no absolutes but yet say we ought to respect others... what is your basis.... you have none and your argument self destructs. also what is respect anyways? in my relative worldview it is completely different than yours but equally true...or so relativism would lead us to think.
so back to justice/fairness... if there are no absolutes than neither you or i have a sound basis or grounds to reason through whether your standard of justice/fairnss is unacceptable, (un)reasonable, better etc... and likewise with me... so essentially this argument will go nowhere!
also i realize i did not really answer your question because i guess i thought i needed to show the deficiencies in relativism first... you buying that?
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MTm7,
Why do you put me in a relativism box? I may argue some points that may seem from that side, but I will also some points against that side as well. I look at it like the nature vs. nurture idea. In reality it is a little of both.
As to your arguments, I think it is more of a scale issue.... I mean isn't respect itself gray as you argue?
Why do you put me in a relativism box? I may argue some points that may seem from that side, but I will also some points against that side as well. I look at it like the nature vs. nurture idea. In reality it is a little of both.
As to your arguments, I think it is more of a scale issue.... I mean isn't respect itself gray as you argue?
Good topic.
Here's your answer:
Because we choose our political and religious beliefs and, more importantly, we internalize them. Together they form the bulk of our ideological cores and for most people, when someone questions or attacks their beliefs they take it personally.
Not every person does this but most do. It's a big part of the reason why otherwise good people can be induced to commit horrible acts in the name of either politics or religion.
Here's your answer:
Because we choose our political and religious beliefs and, more importantly, we internalize them. Together they form the bulk of our ideological cores and for most people, when someone questions or attacks their beliefs they take it personally.
Not every person does this but most do. It's a big part of the reason why otherwise good people can be induced to commit horrible acts in the name of either politics or religion.
well im not sure other than previous debates i guess. i apparently fail to see when you cross back and forth on the pluralistic line. dont take that in a belittling manner as i certainly dont mean it that way.
Awesome observation in your original post, Ruffy.
I didn't have time to read the other comments on this thread, so maybe someone already mentioned it, but do you think it has to do with the fact that both religion and politics/government seem to (whether real or imagined) impose behavior on people?
People like to "do their own thing" and don't like to be told what to do or to be told to alter their behavior, so I wonder if it's a reaction to the push and pull of govt telling people what to do (or people feeling the govt SHOULD tell people what to do) and religion feeling thusly similar.
I didn't have time to read the other comments on this thread, so maybe someone already mentioned it, but do you think it has to do with the fact that both religion and politics/government seem to (whether real or imagined) impose behavior on people?
People like to "do their own thing" and don't like to be told what to do or to be told to alter their behavior, so I wonder if it's a reaction to the push and pull of govt telling people what to do (or people feeling the govt SHOULD tell people what to do) and religion feeling thusly similar.
There is to much gray.
There is no justice or fairness anymore. There is no more black or white or right or wrong.... or even absolute truth. If you say there is you are labeled intolerant or religous or....gasp....republican. Yep...must be a republican.
Man is no longer willing to give his life for the greater good...but he will do unspeakable things for himself if it benefits him. We don't want to help the guy on the corner...cause...well....better let the goverment come up with a program for that one.
If there was justice then life in prison means life in prison. If there was fairness then all child molesters would have there balls cut off...to start with.
The law is the law...not gray...but black and white.
What's wrong with the country that put's people behind bars for killing an eagle but protects people who abort babies under the guise of "choice".? That's fair...
We are a world of extreme's now....from one extreme to the other. What's right for me may not be right for you but that's okay...you just go do your thing and I'll do mine and we'll get along fine....right?
Here's the real deal....our God was born from a virgin...walked the earth as a common man would for 33 or so years and chose common men to start a movement...he rose from the dead as he said he would and as men said he would some 500 years ahead of him...he has never said to serve yourself first so that you can serve others or "find" enlightenment.
There you have it...politics and religion....wait...that's not religion. Religion is a bunch of rules.
That up there is faith....
And it's not gray...it's black and white.
There is no justice or fairness anymore. There is no more black or white or right or wrong.... or even absolute truth. If you say there is you are labeled intolerant or religous or....gasp....republican. Yep...must be a republican.
Man is no longer willing to give his life for the greater good...but he will do unspeakable things for himself if it benefits him. We don't want to help the guy on the corner...cause...well....better let the goverment come up with a program for that one.
If there was justice then life in prison means life in prison. If there was fairness then all child molesters would have there balls cut off...to start with.
The law is the law...not gray...but black and white.
What's wrong with the country that put's people behind bars for killing an eagle but protects people who abort babies under the guise of "choice".? That's fair...
We are a world of extreme's now....from one extreme to the other. What's right for me may not be right for you but that's okay...you just go do your thing and I'll do mine and we'll get along fine....right?
Here's the real deal....our God was born from a virgin...walked the earth as a common man would for 33 or so years and chose common men to start a movement...he rose from the dead as he said he would and as men said he would some 500 years ahead of him...he has never said to serve yourself first so that you can serve others or "find" enlightenment.
There you have it...politics and religion....wait...that's not religion. Religion is a bunch of rules.
That up there is faith....
And it's not gray...it's black and white.
another good post from Defys.
We don't want to help the guy on the corner...cause...well....better let the goverment come up with a program for that one.-found this interesting....very true observations. And yet when we ignore that person on the corner and take that attitude of let the government take care of it....well then many people beotch about the government giving hand outs to the street person out of "our" hard earned money. Sure would be simpler and easy to reach out and give that guy on the corner a hand.....
We don't want to help the guy on the corner...cause...well....better let the goverment come up with a program for that one.-found this interesting....very true observations. And yet when we ignore that person on the corner and take that attitude of let the government take care of it....well then many people beotch about the government giving hand outs to the street person out of "our" hard earned money. Sure would be simpler and easy to reach out and give that guy on the corner a hand.....
I take exception to your comment "We don't want to help the guy on the corner". I am included in your we and I have spent the last 60 years doing all I can to help that guy and I am not alone in this endeavor. I must say, however, that the corner of which you speak is getting more crowed with those in need of help and less populated by those who could and should be helping.
Mold...you are an honorable man.
Your last sentence sums it up....and is a fine summary of what should be right, fair and just....
Your last sentence sums it up....and is a fine summary of what should be right, fair and just....
sorry, but that is bound to happen when speaking in generalized terms....good on you for helping out, I hope in 40 years time I can say the same thing....1 day at a time I'm trying.
I to like that last line of yours.
D
DOO DAWG
Well-known member
Politics and Religion eh?
How about this......
CAN MUSLIMS BE GOOD AMERICANS?
(This is certainly 'food-for-thought'. What do you think? I don't want this to end up in name calling and finger pointing etc. Lets just keep this civilized)
This is very interesting and we all need to read it
from start to finish And send it on to everyone.
Maybe this is why our American Muslims are
so quiet and not speaking out about any atrocities.
Can a good Muslim be A good American?
This question was forwarded to a man who worked
in Saudi Arabia for 20 years. The following is his reply:
Theologically - no. . . .
Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon God of Arabia.
Religiously - no. . .
Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah Except Islam (Quran, 2:256)(Koran)
Scripturally - no.. . .
Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars of Islam and the Quran.
Geographically - no .
Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he Turns in prayer five times a day.
Socially - no. . ..
Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make Friends with Christians or Jews ..
Politically - no. . .
Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual Leaders),
who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America , The great Satan.
Domestically - no.. .. .
Because he is instructed to marry four Women and
Beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34 )
Intellectually - no. .
Because he cannot accept the American Constitution
since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes
the Bible to be corrupt.
Philosophically - no. . . .
Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does Not allow
freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot
Co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.
Spiritually - no. . .
Because when we declare 'one nation under God,'
The Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah
is NEVER referred to As Heavenly father, nor is he
ever called love in the Quran's 99 Excellent names.
Therefore, after much study and deliberation....
perhaps we should be Very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS
n this country. - - - They obviously Cannot be both
good' Muslims and good Americans.
Call it what you wish
it's still the truth. You had better believe it. The more who
understand This, the better it will be for our country and our future.
The religious war is bigger than we know or understand. .....
Footnote: The Muslims have said they will destroy us from within.
SO FREEDOM IS NOT FREE.
How about this......
CAN MUSLIMS BE GOOD AMERICANS?
(This is certainly 'food-for-thought'. What do you think? I don't want this to end up in name calling and finger pointing etc. Lets just keep this civilized)
This is very interesting and we all need to read it
from start to finish And send it on to everyone.
Maybe this is why our American Muslims are
so quiet and not speaking out about any atrocities.
Can a good Muslim be A good American?
This question was forwarded to a man who worked
in Saudi Arabia for 20 years. The following is his reply:
Theologically - no. . . .
Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon God of Arabia.
Religiously - no. . .
Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah Except Islam (Quran, 2:256)(Koran)
Scripturally - no.. . .
Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars of Islam and the Quran.
Geographically - no .
Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he Turns in prayer five times a day.
Socially - no. . ..
Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make Friends with Christians or Jews ..
Politically - no. . .
Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual Leaders),
who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America , The great Satan.
Domestically - no.. .. .
Because he is instructed to marry four Women and
Beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34 )
Intellectually - no. .
Because he cannot accept the American Constitution
since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes
the Bible to be corrupt.
Philosophically - no. . . .
Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does Not allow
freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot
Co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.
Spiritually - no. . .
Because when we declare 'one nation under God,'
The Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah
is NEVER referred to As Heavenly father, nor is he
ever called love in the Quran's 99 Excellent names.
Therefore, after much study and deliberation....
perhaps we should be Very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS
n this country. - - - They obviously Cannot be both
good' Muslims and good Americans.
Call it what you wish
it's still the truth. You had better believe it. The more who
understand This, the better it will be for our country and our future.
The religious war is bigger than we know or understand. .....
Footnote: The Muslims have said they will destroy us from within.
SO FREEDOM IS NOT FREE.
...OUT. Give the guy a handOUT is what you meant. I have no problem whatsoever giving somebody a hand UP, but I'll be dammed if I'll give him a handout. Doesn't help him, doesn't help society, no matter how warm and fuzzy it makes you feel inside.
T
Team Wild
Well-known member
Ok one more thing about helping out the guy on the corner. I am in favor of this whole heartedly BUT The guy on the corner must also want to help himself out. Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will not go hungry again. Today its easier to just wait for the next fish to be handed out.
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