PLEASE READ!!! Hidden Gems Wilderness....the end of ATVs, Motorcycles and Snowmobiles

[bushy]

It's true, kissing their azz and playing the "game" is the only way to hope to win a compromise. Yaa, a pain in the *** but these dilwads need to be led to the water. They have no real comprehension of what is right or wrong in our land. They only know they came from a big ****ed up mess back east where wild places are over-managed. You can say say fug em and retain your dignity, but we lose in the end, to many of em. I dunno, I'm so sick of approaching idiots politely it makes me sik. I see it on a daily basis at CSU. I'm surrounded by "East Coast turds" Mostly a bunch of hemmroid riding chair jockeys with no informed concept of ecosystem function. They learned their lessons in the city from books of how they ****ed it all up and then warp them to fit our management of our western backcountry. bla bla. We need to show them we care about our land and we're competant to manage it. No cowboy attitudes of "****em" are going to work. We need to work with these slow children and help them along the path of reasonable management. Sure, they'd like to ban access to everything other than belly crawling in the BC, but we need to prove that the BC can managed for multiple use without damage and they still have their areas where they can creep along in solitude if they want. These people do need to realize that all those trails they now want quiet are jeep trails though. It amazes me their fantasy of "Wilderness". I been ridn that for years!

 

[Farmer]

Today I sent a letter to Polis. Within two hours I got a call from someone in his office. That person has asked me to sit down and talk with Susan Kincade, the representative for Hidden Gems in Eagle County. I'll agree that it will be difficult to pursuade politicians to kill this movement, but proposing a better plan or convincing enough locals that this plan is not in the best interest of the community is a good start. We need as many people as possible to get "their" attention.

Lance,
13 hours after Kristy had started the web site; I had a someone call me from Hidden Gems on Friday; the fellow I talked too wanted to see if our "group" would meet with Susan Kincade. I explained to him we would be willing to meet with her at some point but not now. I told him we as groups were on way opposite sides of the fence on this issue and finding any middle ground was a long ways away. We had a nice conversation and once he found out I had seen all the maps of the proposed willderness he quickly gave up talking ot me and just asked if he could mark us down as being willing to at least meet with Susan Kincade. I told him of course we could meet at some point, but not now and that is how we eneded it.

I don't feel like for one second our group i ready to meet with her right now. The only reason they are contacting people like you and ourselves is that they are hoping to take care us of before we can become a major problem. Basically we are a problem that they want to "nip in the bud" before it gets any bigger.

Our feeling on that is "not a chance". There is no way we are going to be brushed aside or forced to compromise yet when we don't even know yet how much power we truly have. This thing is really starting to spread like wild fire over here and people are really getting fired up. I couldn't be more pleased. We are having great luck reaching out to other forest users and getting them aware to what's going on. In the long run it's way bigger than a snowmobile thing and that is one of our greatest advantages and biggest cards to play.

I think if you guys can get some people at the county commsioners meeting with the right info in hand you have a way better chance than you think.

I actaully really feel like we stand a pretty good chance on this thing

 

[Farmer]

has anyone ever proposed an alliance/partnership with the mtn bike community to combat these efforts? I don't really know if they (mtn bikers) organize or whatever but it seems like they stand as much to lose as we but would represent a larger more "green" demographic then sledders. Strength in numbers plus a more marketable outdoor sport front end for the puppets (politicians) to support.. spit balling...

We have talked about contacting them. They as a group are well aware of it and concerned also. The only thing is that these guys carve out a few 10 mile loops out of their proposal and basically make the mnt bikers happy.

 

[Farmer]

So, they really think they can get this done in months??????
How the heck, are they planning to do this? Do they have a rider on an omni-bus bill or something?


STEPS IN THE PASSAGE OF A WILDERNESS BILL:

1. Introduction of the bill by a member of Congress (usually at the request of several citizen organizations).
2. Referral of the bill to the proper committee, either the House Agriculture Committee or to the Senate Energy and Natural Resources committee, according to where the bill was introduced.
3. Review of the bill by committee staff.
4. Public hearing at Washington, D.C., held by the committee.
5. Review of hearing testimony by committee staff.
6. "Mark-up" session by the committee at which the committee makes any changes it wants in the language of the bill and then votes whether or not to "report out" the bill, i.e., whether to send it to the full House or Senate for Vote.
7. Debate and vote on the committee's bill on the floor of the House or the Senate (as the case may be).
8. If the bill is passed, then it is sent to the other body of the Congress where it is subject to Steps 2 through 7 again.
9. If the other or second body passes a bill identical to the wording of the bill passed by the first body, then the bill is considered "enacted" and is sent to the President for his signature, which makes the bill a law. Of course the President has the right to veto any act if he wishes. This kills it unless the veto is later over-ridden by a two-thirds majority vote in each body of the Congress.
10. If the bill as passed by the two bodies is not identical in wording, then it is referred to a joint House and Senate conference committee, whose job it is to compromise the differences and agree on some identical language. Then the joint committee's "conference report" is sent to the two bodies, each of which then votes whether to accept the "conference report". If both vote to accept the "conference report", the bill is thereby "enacted" and goes to the President for signing into law.

I totally 100% agree, I have no idea how they intend to do this, but they sure seem to think they can get it shoved thru this next year. I have talked to people in the forest service and they are well aware of this whole deal and even they have no idea how they can can get this done this fast. They do however think this is 100% percent real though and that is very scary and poorly thought out.

The Hidden Gems people's take on this was, they have the best congress they have ever had for something like this, the best president for signing it into law. The sooner they can get the bill there, the better the chance it has to pass. They want it passed and signed before the next election.

Wonderful stuff for sure

 

[Farmer]

Hello Folks,

After the letter I sent out the other night in regards to Hidden Gems Wilderness Proposal I have had a ton of positive feed back and the letter seems to be making the rounds. I just wanted to drop this note with a few "Key Points" that you can tell other people to help them understand this.

1. This Proposal is not thru the forest service. This proposal is from private groups that are well funded that are basically paid lobbyists.

2. Since this not thru the forest service none of the usual process apply. What would normally take years is going to take months. This whole thing is going to be decided within a couple of months.

3. The wilderness proposal shuts this off to everything mechanical from Mountain Bikes,Chainsaws, vehicles, atvs, snowmobiles, motorcycles, ect.

4. Once something is designated wilderness, that is it. Game over, there is no reversing it or going back.

5. This proposal as it written will eliminate all of our favorite snowmobiling and motorized recreational areas. As a snowmobiler, the only thing we would still be left with is Baylor Park nothing else. No more Twin Peaks, Burn area, Clear Fork, Jones Trail, Spruce Mountain, Thompson Creek, These areas would be done, finished.

6. The next big thing is the implications of what happens. If we loose Four mile, the Flattops are next. It says it right there in their plans. So just because you don't use the south side of Interstate 70 for recreation does not mean it will not effect you eventually. This is all tied together if one goes it all goes.

7. This is not a "Snowmobile thing" or a "Dirt Bike thing" or a "Mountain Bike thing" or even a" wheel drive thing" this is bigger than all of us. It is going to effect us all. Like it or not we are all tied together. IF we loose one, we will loose it all.

8. The most important thing for people to understand is this thing is 100% real and it happening right now, not 1 year from now or 10 years from now but right now TODAY. The time for action is now.

The web sight for all the info on what these folks are proposing is the following. Go to maps and it will show you detailed maps of everything they are proposing. Everything is there, all locations no matter what county or what forest.
http://www.whiteriverwild.org/p-roaring-fork-14.html

The congress man who is going to sponsor it is here
http://polis.house.gov/Issues/Issue/?IssueID=4706

As we get our plan of attack ready I will be sending out more info on what we can ask people to do. If you have any love for the outdoors please pass this on to everyone you know. Forward it people like the Blue-ribbon, COVCO, or any off highway vehicle groups. The more people we can get to respond the better.

If anyone has any ideas or wants to help please let me know. Thank you

Sean Martin
Mount SoprisRec Riders

 

[MtnDoo]

Well, there's not swaying the azz-muches at our town council.
They bit it hook-line-and sinker as expected.
Zero public input, and letter of support to the world as always.

CB is beautiful, but a politically frustrating place to live.

CB Town Council steps on it's d!ck once again

 

[Wade]

Believe it or not, these idiots do notice when they start getting a lot of email. I'd have everyone write the idiot congressman, and tell him all your concerns.

You have Senators and Congressman. If you can get one Senator on your side, you'll win. Getting other Congressman to see your side can greatly slow down the process. Write everyone.

Don't forget to get an estimation on how expensive this krap is. They will probably need to buy some cattle grazing rights, where's the money coming from. They may need to buy some access, private land. They may have to work around communications. They may have to rip some roads out or buy some private property There's some Senators that won't go for Wilderness money.

Unfortunately, you need to figure out if any of this land doesn't meet "Wilderness".

Is any of it currently a RWA (recommended wilderness area), if not, then there was an analysis during the Forest Plan, and it was found to not be suitable.

Is there much communications towers in the area. Too much, and it's out. Power lines, buried gas pipe, telephone.

Is any area smaller than 5000 acres. If so, then you can fight each one. BTW, they can't just gerrymander 5000 acres together. There's rules about how wide the "noses" are, and connections. It can't look like a ink blot when it's done.

Was the area mined within 50 years? Is there obvious mining visible?

Was the area heavily logged? Do the tree canopy appear uniform? Was there any tree plantations in the area?

Is there any maintained automobile roads in the area? They will have to work around those somehow.

You could attack active management of the forest, for fires and beetles, even the fish sometimes need help, that wilderness is not suitable for.

How is this going to effect the local economy? That can be an eye opener, specially in the winter.

Is there anything about an area that makes it look like it has been modified by man?

 

[skibreeze]

2 More emails sent off to my senators asking them to not ban my favorite form of recreation.

 

[mtnxr]

Wade...your input in so valuable and I would like to talk to you more maybe later this week.

I am going to be very involved in our group whiteriverforestalliance.com. Sean and Kristy started this and we are going to put as much pressure on this as a group as possible.

"Don't forget to get an estimation on how expensive this krap is. They will probably need to buy some cattle grazing rights, where's the money coming from. They may need to buy some access, private land. They may have to work around communications. They may have to rip some roads out or buy some private property There's some Senators that won't go for Wilderness money." Any suggestions on these estimates?

Unfortunately, you need to figure out if any of this land doesn't meet "Wilderness". Any suggestions for determining this...we have printed the wilderness act

Is any of it currently a RWA (recommended wilderness area), if not, then there was an analysis during the Forest Plan, and it was found to not be suitable.approximately 82000 acres of recomended out of 670k new stuff

Is there much communications towers in the area. Too much, and it's out. Power lines, buried gas pipe, telephone.gas lines, probably some power and tele lines

Was the area mined within 50 years? Is there obvious mining visible?mining claims for sure...not positive on activity

Was the area heavily logged? Do the tree canopy appear uniform? Was there any tree plantations in the area?

Is there any maintained automobile roads in the area? They will have to work around those somehow.definately roads in the area and Cherry stem seems to be the term they use on dirt forest roads

You could attack active management of the forest, for fires and beetles, even the fish sometimes need help, that wilderness is not suitable for.

How is this going to effect the local economy? That can be an eye opener, specially in the winter.We need suggestions on figuring this out. We feel the impact could be huge.

Is there anything about an area that makes it look like it has been modified by man? Certain places some for sure but they have spread it across an area where it jumps across highways, forest service roads resevoirs, water diversions, gas drilled areas and pipelines etc.

 

[snowww1]

Please mention when writing the other activities that you do that will be affected by this (i.e. mountain biking, fishing, hunting). It will also make access to areas more difficult for people with young children and older adults. Most of the areas do not meet the criteria for wilderness as defined in the wilderness act of 1964. The dirt roads have been in use for decades by all recreationalists, the areas have been logged, have 10th Mountain Huts, next to an interstate, etc.
I also checked the "about us" page on the website and noticed that some of the supporters are local businesses or nonprofits. Timberline Tours (who is a jeep tour operator and former snowmobile tour operator), Meet the Wilderness (part of SOS which supports cycling), Fly Fishing Outfitters, and the Eagle Valley Land Trust. I sent letters to all of these businesses stating I would not support them due to their support of Hidden Gems.
Website states that you will still be able to fish and hunt, does not mention that it will require longer hikes to gain access to those areas.
Please write letters.

 

[Wade]

I'm not an old pro at this or anything, just read a lot. Some of these fights are pretty interesting.


OK, so only 82,000 out of 670,000 was RWA. That's interesting. What's the forest names. Do you have the names of the areas? You search google for the forest name, and just say "forest plan". You'll probably find an active or old forest plan. If the forest plan is new. They will have a rating chart in there, that talks about different areas, and how they rated for Wilderness. Somewhere in there, there will be some info on why it scored low. You may also want to look for old "travel plan" for the forest. They sometimes talk about areas. Then you plead with someone at the Forest Service to spill the beans, why this area isn't valid. Hope you don't like the 82,000 acres, you may loose it.

Don't let these idiot scare you with names such as "Mickey Mouse Proposed Wilderness Area." Anyone can propose a wilderness area. So, it don't mean jack. RWA's count. Also WSA wilderness study areas. Roadless areas might also hold some clues. They have Primitive Roadless, which is a code word for we'll make it wilderness later. Might want to look up the roadless maps. But, they never defined which areaa where "primitive" and which were "semi-primitive motorized".

The fact that their jumping highways and such, detracts from the wilderness. There's wilderness's as small as 500 acres. But, there's a special reason they where allowed.

About the economy. You'll need snowmobile registration numbers, specially if by area. Then you'll need to read the boat load of wilderness studies. Wilderness's are dead areas, unless the wilderness happens to be in a national park. That's why they claim 12 million people visit wildernesses. National Parks account for most of it. Unless it happens to be close to a major city, wildernesses are generally dead man's land. The only real economic advantage is property values bordering a wilderness go up. Whoop ti do. I doubt that speaks to the majority of people.

This is why there are so many land use groups. No one is big enough to cover everyone. Now, once you get a handle on this thing. Email BRC, and tell them what's going on. They at least may be able to loan you some Lawyer time. He can look over your data and tell you where you stand. You never know, if it looks easy, and no one else is working it, BRC may take it on. They like to win.

I can also help run some of this past SAWS, and see if Dave can think of things to attack. Unfortunately, SAWS doesn't have very many members in Co. So, he could email a few people. I could help you write a SAWS alert, no problem, but we have to have something to talk about. Stupid question, where is the Colorado State Snowmobile Association, and why aren't they heading this up?

Wilderness is covered by the Wilderness Act, and if the area doesn't meet the requirements, then a judge can rule it out, even if Congress votes it in. But, that's a long shot. If it's iffy, there's lots of ways to derail a wilderness act, or just put it on the back burner for 30 years.

I suggest you start printing some bumper stickers. And handing out some flyers to the local shops. Nothing gets' peoples attention like seeing their favorite area with a big red X across it. Get a booth at the nearest snow show, and show people. Someone might sponsor you. Approach the chamber of commerce, they can call around and ask other chambers how much money wilderness costs a community. Propose to them, it might be in their interest to educate themselves. Usually, you'll find that the county has been promised something, to not fight the wilderness, and that something is always money in some form. Such as converting land from NF to city/county property. Or something.

Don't forget bicycles, even horse people, 4x4, heliski, hang gliders, hunters, snow kite, timber companys, miners, private land owners in the middle of it, and the usual motorized bunch. They all have a stake in that land. You might should be prepared to explain what wilderness doesn't allow, most people think snowmobilers ride in the wilderness.

Oh yha, I forgot, if you get active, remember, your being watched. Everything you say, is on google archives.

 

[dragon12]

Have you guys thought about shooting an email to Peter Boyles at 630 KHOW in Denver http://www.khow.com/pages/boyles.html. He likes to take on these sort of things not to mention he has a large conservative following that would be good to have on board. Might be worth a shot to get it into the public's eye.

I talked to a friend that rides Mtn Bikes and he was going to take the info to a bike shop he frequents and bring it to their attention.

 

[AndrettiDog]

Have you guys thought about shooting an email to Peter Boyles at 630 KHOW in Denver http://www.khow.com/pages/boyles.html. He likes to take on these sort of things not to mention he has a large conservative following that would be good to have on board. Might be worth a shot to get it into the public's eye.

I talked to a friend that rides Mtn Bikes and he was going to take the info to a bike shop he frequents and bring it to their attention.

This is a great idea.

 

[Qreiff]

(Posted by Farmer..........Sean)
"Our feeling on that is "not a chance". There is no way we are going to be brushed aside or forced to compromise yet when we don't even know yet how much power we truly have. This thing is really starting to spread like wild fire over here and people are really getting fired up. I couldn't be more pleased. We are having great luck reaching out to other forest users and getting them aware to what's going on. In the long run it's way bigger than a snowmobile thing and that is one of our greatest advantages and biggest cards to play.

I think if you guys can get some people at the county commsioners meeting with the right info in hand you have a way better chance than you think.

I actually really feel like we stand a pretty good chance on this thing"


Thank you Sean for all of your focus, input and passion!!

Thank you Bushy for your input.............Yes, we can't act like a bunch of pissed off Cowboys or we will go down for sure. Let's all focus and truly come together. THE TIME IS NOW.........FOR REAL~!

Thank you WADE & SAWS...........We have work to do (let's all keep writing our Congress-persons IE: Jared Polis, etc). We would all benefit from any knowledge and guidedance you'd be willing to share.

Q

 

[Wade]

OK, here's one of the 2001 roadless plans.
http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/whiteriver/projects/forest_plan/plan/maps/thematic/roadless_areas.pdf

Also suggest you study this
http://fs.usda.gov/wps/portal/!ut/p...ot Yet Determined&ttype=detail&pname=Roadless

For example, this map is encouraging, because it shows no Roadless - recommended wilderness in the area. Must be something wrong with the map.
http://fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fsmrs_072634.pdf

Print those maps out, as big as you can, then start over laying it with the wildernuts map. Anything that doesn't match up, will probably be easy to defeat. Those areas should be easy to attack. Any little wilderness not attached to another wilderness, is an easy target also.

You will also want to study the Travel Plan.
http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/whiteriver/projects/travel_management/index.shtml
It doesn't appear they've released the FEIS, but the preferred alternative was G, so you need to study that map. You'll need to make a case, of what percentage of the allowed motorized area, will be closed due to Hidden Gems, and it future proposals. It appears to be everything, to me.


There's 640,000 acres of roadless in White River, 298,000 acres of which are suitable for wilderness recommendation. So, there's around 300,000 acres that are going to be hard to beat, without killing this bill.

I've been looking at this map. Lots of the areas are small. The only reason they think they can get by with this is; their calling everything a wilderness addition. There's a reason why each one of these areas where not included in the original wilderness area. Now, you've got to dig up why.

I'd start by creating a document with every area listed. List it's size. Then list if it's a wilderness addition, or not, then list if it was Roadless or not. Grade the wildereness addition, is there private property between it, or a road. Then it's probably not an addition. I think you could shut this project down for years, by just the shear size and breath of it. Constantly asking for time to study more.

You'll probably need to lookup each one of these areas, and research what's there. Your going to need an army.

This wilderness plan is it's own omnibus wilderness bill. This is the biggest load of krap I've ever seen. Also, if you don't slow this thing down, the 2nd stage is going to kill you. There planning on shutting the flat tops down.

This wilderness proposal took a lot of money to put together. You can imagine how much they have invested in this already.

Wade

 

[stewp97]

...This wilderness plan is it's own omnibus wilderness bill. This is the biggest load of krap I've ever seen...

Wade

Any idea if this is legal or not? That might be another way to fight it. I really can't understand how they can go around the system like this.

peter

 

[Wade]

If congress votes it in, it's in. Doesn't make any difference if it's legal.

But, they will vote it in under the Wilderness Act. They aren't changing the act, so they have to follow the basic rules. 5000 acres min, few roads, critters, ect.

If they just vote it in. You could ask a judge to rule on it. He could rule that the land doesn't meet the wilderness act, and throw it out. I'm sure you can guest how often that happens though. What you have to do, is create a huge stink with your elected officials. You have to get a Senator from your state on your side. Oh, and it helps to have Forest Service people ready to testify that it doesn't meet wilderness. The FS is full of greenies, but there's still some guys with sawdust in their vanes working there. Oh, and the Forest Service Biologist and timber guy, they're not usually green. And, can help you dispel any endangered species habitat, real quick. Talk to them.

Once you have your ducks in a row, and have a nice long list of "members" of your group. I'd suggest you call your Senators, and ask to talk to whoever covers "resources", or public land, or whatever their title is. The Senator will have a person that's assigned to it. Arrange a meeting with him. Make your case with him. Explain your side. This Bill will go nowhere, if a Senator doesn't want it too. Unwritten rule of the Senate.

You can try the same with the House of Rep guys. Basically, I'd just contact them all, and see if anyone bites. Have everyone write all of them.

Use words like "you'd like to collaborate on this process", they love that, "the snowmobiling community hasn't been included". Then just say no, we have enough Wilderness, to everything they propose. They kick you out, but they will now know your there.

If no one bites, you need work down the chain. State House, county commissioners, ect. Lots of times, there's county commissioners that want to do something, but they feel they have no public backing on their position. Hearing your group is backing them, will embolden them to quietly help you, make contact up the chain.

Welcome to the process.

 

[Wade]

Seems your little congressman Jared Polis, is a millionaire. Family business in Greeting Cards. He started an internet greeting card company.

Dude's got money, he basically pays for his own campaign, millions. He's a die hard liberal. Your probably wasting your time trying to talk to him. This entire thing, is probably his idea.

 

[smokenjay]

I'm in Polis' district and just wrote an email to him. He has offices in Boulder and Thornton, so I plan to pay them a visit. I saw on another thread, some bumper sticker ideas. There was one that I liked a lot. It had a snowmobiler and a mountain biker on it. There are a lot of mountain bikers in Colorado. I bet that some of them don't know that wilderness areas affect them also. As soon as I get one, it's going on my wife's Pruis! (and one on my pick up, of course)

Here is part of what I wrote to Polis:

. I was extremely disappointed to read that you had alligned yourself with the Hidden Gems wilderness group and their effort to establish new wilderness areas.

Colorado has long been a state that prides itself in it's recreational activities. The Hidden Gems seem to think that Colorado should only be proud of SOME of it's recreation. One of the only ways to actually use these areas is to hike. Unfortunately, there are very few Coloradans that have hiking as thier only recreation.

I am an avid mountain biker and snowmobiler. I am scared to death that my favorite activities are being taken away by a small group of selfish people. Aren't public lands there for the public to enjoy?

I urge you to reconsider your position on wilderness lands. Wilderness lands are bad for Colorado and bad for everyone. Thanks in advance for your time.

 

[AndrettiDog]

Well done (and said) smokenjay. We need more people to put the same effort in.