IMO, those are both still pilot error.
plane crash in butte kills 17 mostly kids
- Thread starter Blu Du
- Start date
IMO, those are both still pilot error.
one of the first things i learned about aviation accidents, is to find out as many facts as possible before speculating on the cause, either mechanical, human, or operational..........any person who has a true approach to safety investigation understands the importance of scientific objectivity.....there may be a time to let experience, past history of similar events, and even some speculation in the absence of sufficient empirical data (this aircraft had no flight or voice recorder)....but i can't number the times as a young aviator, that the most likely conclusions we came to were proved totally false by the time the accident investigation was complete.....from reading the responses by those who are putting out pure speculation as to the cause(s), despite previous experience or insight, is still just that, speculation....obviously there have been some heated emotions involved here, but they don't become anyone involved in this discussion....from what i am able to read in the news, not that those folks get all their facts right either, the pilot was quite experienced, 65 years old, professional training and background, with 2000 hrs in type.....hardly an amature.....not that i don't think that my arguements aren't self-evident, but i have 38 years as a professional pilot, with ten years prior to that as a private civilian pilot and have logged just short of 40k hrs of light aircraft, high performance jet (f-16 the latest) and 32 years in commercial jet aviation with the largest airline in the usa...also some of the best schools in safety and accident investigation.....and i totally agree, at this point, only sympathy, empathy, and comfort for the bereavment of this innocent family should be foremost on our minds.......
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well said!!!!!!
I could not even imagine what these families are going through!! Let this thread go back to what it started out as!!
Truely the saddest family tradgedy I have ever heard of, In My Prayers.
I don't see where this thread started out as anything other than a report of a terrible plane crash that killed a lot of innocent people. Those of us that travel in airplanes were probably struck a little closer to home than those that don't. IMO Wanting answers so as not to repeat a bad scene isn't being insensitive, if my family was killed I'd want to know what went wrong. This is a forum made up of a lot of different personalities and opinions, saying everyone should react like you do is kind of silly. For those interested in in the WTH went wrong, heres an interesting post:
Upon a little investigating on the Pilatus website its clear to me that he was running out of gas and thats why he diverted to Butte…only 80 miles from Bozeman
Here’s why. If you go to the Pilatus website you can see all the performance data for the PC12. It is for the NG (new generation) version but I don’t think the older versions will be that much different.
First, the distance from Oroville, CA to Butte MT is about 596 miles (shorttest distance). If he took on full fuel when he left…he was over weight…and not by a little. After full fuel you are only allowed 1096 pounds. 14 people died but the pilot is counted in the emty weight. So 7 childrenX55 lbs=385lbs. 6 adults X175 lbs=1050lbs. Total=1435lbs…already over weight and I haven’t even accounted for any luggage and perhaps skis…but needless to say it was probably >500lbs overweight. But that isnt where the real problem lies.
If you look on the Pilatus website for the range of this aircraft…something very interesting jumps out. With no payload (other than fuel) and at 30,000 feet…the PC12 NG has a range of approx. 1500 miles with reserves. Bump the payload up to max and the range drops to 600 plus IFR reserves. Hence, weight plays a big deal in the range on this aircraft. So if he had full fuel he would have been more than 500lbs overweight and probably less than 600 miles of range. Any less fuel would have made the situation worse as would flying at lower than 30,000. His flight plan stated 25,000
Now there was fire at the crash site but there is going to be 5-7 gallons of unusable fuel in the tank and in all likelyhood there was probably more…as banking and turning for final could prevent fuel from flowing continuously to the engine.
So they can speculate on ice and/or being overweight, but I think this is just going to be a case of fuel starvation from high fuel consumption from a heavy/overweight airplane.
Perhaps some PC12 guys on here could shed some real life situations, i.e. fuel burn and such.
Upon a little investigating on the Pilatus website its clear to me that he was running out of gas and thats why he diverted to Butte…only 80 miles from Bozeman
Here’s why. If you go to the Pilatus website you can see all the performance data for the PC12. It is for the NG (new generation) version but I don’t think the older versions will be that much different.
First, the distance from Oroville, CA to Butte MT is about 596 miles (shorttest distance). If he took on full fuel when he left…he was over weight…and not by a little. After full fuel you are only allowed 1096 pounds. 14 people died but the pilot is counted in the emty weight. So 7 childrenX55 lbs=385lbs. 6 adults X175 lbs=1050lbs. Total=1435lbs…already over weight and I haven’t even accounted for any luggage and perhaps skis…but needless to say it was probably >500lbs overweight. But that isnt where the real problem lies.
If you look on the Pilatus website for the range of this aircraft…something very interesting jumps out. With no payload (other than fuel) and at 30,000 feet…the PC12 NG has a range of approx. 1500 miles with reserves. Bump the payload up to max and the range drops to 600 plus IFR reserves. Hence, weight plays a big deal in the range on this aircraft. So if he had full fuel he would have been more than 500lbs overweight and probably less than 600 miles of range. Any less fuel would have made the situation worse as would flying at lower than 30,000. His flight plan stated 25,000
Now there was fire at the crash site but there is going to be 5-7 gallons of unusable fuel in the tank and in all likelyhood there was probably more…as banking and turning for final could prevent fuel from flowing continuously to the engine.
So they can speculate on ice and/or being overweight, but I think this is just going to be a case of fuel starvation from high fuel consumption from a heavy/overweight airplane.
Perhaps some PC12 guys on here could shed some real life situations, i.e. fuel burn and such.
The pilot was a 65 year old Air Force retiree with about 2000 hours in the Pilatus, who had been the owners pilot for some time, so lack of previous experience is likely not a factor.
I have an acquaintance who is an air traffic controller at SLC Center and she said there was some talk as to (ATC) wanting to get a drug test on the pilot after they landed for apparently erratic communications and/or actions. Me speculating, (sorry) but, that leaves the door open for a medical situation - hypoxia or heart attack (etc) to come into play.
Whatever the cause, this is so incredibly sad for the families.
I have an acquaintance who is an air traffic controller at SLC Center and she said there was some talk as to (ATC) wanting to get a drug test on the pilot after they landed for apparently erratic communications and/or actions. Me speculating, (sorry) but, that leaves the door open for a medical situation - hypoxia or heart attack (etc) to come into play.
Whatever the cause, this is so incredibly sad for the families.
Hypoxia is scary, there's a good example of it here http://www.natca.org/assets/multimedia/cfs09/5th-archieaward-ngl-zob.wmv To clarify, this is not the pilatus that crashed, just an example of hypoxia. In the 4 minutes it took to get him down you can hear him go from almost passed out to normal.
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