On The Fence Over Turbo's?

[AdrenalineAddict]

I am wondering if anyone else is on the fence over turbos? I'm the kind of rider who enjoys it all, tight tree riding, little blips over downhill jumps, point and shoot hillclimbs, and quite a bit of cornice jumping. When riding a turbo the tight tree's become a bit of an issue, but not much. The little light front end blips become a thing of the past (lag). The point and shoot hillclimbs are a hoot unless you are in a total state of denial, but on a turbo I'm now going to be real apprehensive about a mid-air sled correction when sailing off a cornice (which I consider a staple on any quality ride), I love ripping up a long steep point and shoot run as much as the next guy, but does the riding become a little bit one dimensional? I'm not trying to bash turbo's, just want to hear from some subjective thinkers with open minds, not the type who have that, what are you going to do to keep up, mindset. Almost all the turbo sledders I know have become point and shoot snowmobilers.

 

[MTdream]

dont care about point and shoot, not much of it where I am from...

Some fundamental differences in turbo set ups for sure...In my case, I have a mid mount, and the lag is nominal at best (however this is not a lag discussion)...I have geared mine down, and also clutched it so as to torque the sled more on the bottom end, as the top end with boost is nearly limitless

If your clutching and gearing for top end, you will hate riding a sled in tight trees, as you will spin out more, and just get stuck...Have a few buddies who have really helped out on this, and the gearing and clutching is the key IMHO...

which makes drops etc. controllable...

 

[throttlecable]

Turbo systems have become quite adaptable. No longer just point and shoot applications,...just look at the RMSHA mod class race sleds,... at least 60% are running boost successfully. The closed course racing environment is not condusive to the problems you have already outlined that are associated with turbo lag. Not coincidently, this is where a lot of current technology is being tested and refined, and the resulting benefits are already showing up in non racing applications. Additionally, you will start seeing supercharged 2 stroke sleds that will deliver boosted performance without the lag/heat issues that are associated with current turbo systems. Having said all that,...it's pretty cool to build old school naturally aspirated horsepower, and go put a whooping on some high dollar boosted sleds because the rider isn't man enough ride it!

 

[mattymac]

scott, from what ive seen/learned over the past few years is, it has alot to do with what motor your putting the turbo on.

The turbo systems have made leaps and bounds over the last 3 years or so and have become extremely reliable, easy to tune, and run great!!!

They dont have the snap off the bottom like a NA bigbore simply because of clutching (for the higher hp) and simply yes that there is always gunna be some "lag". Some motors work around this better than others. Not to say that they are slow off the line by any means!!! If you have any kind of forward momentum the power is there RIGHT NOW!

I dont think you would be dissapointed going that route the way you ride and at the elevation you ride at, did the 900 finally give up???

what sled you planning on boosting up?

 

[JHG]

I didn't think about any of the stuff you mentioned when I put my turbo on. As far as jumping and cornices, I haven't had an issue. I still love tree riding, but it's a little different now. I tend to come into corners and technical spots a lot slower than I used to due to the sled having the hp or recover. I noticed the difference bliping the throttle on downhill bumps and jumps. I missed the first couple but it wasn't a turbo lag issue it was a higher engagement on the primary spring. I played with clutching a lot, lowering and raising engagements. After I found the engagement that i liked, I adapted the throttle control to it. Now I just have to stab it a little harder to hit those jumps and bumps. I'm by no means a point and shoot rider, I like to climb but also like to keep my sled in one piece. I spend powder days in the trees and shorter steeper climbs. I recently rode a stock sled for the day after I sold my turbo and I can say riding with a turbo makes you a different rider. Things are approached differently. I'll do another turbo in a heart beat it's done nothing but make riding more fun for me. Gearing and clutching make a huge difference in how and where the sled performs best.

 

[savagecanuck]

I am mainly a booddocker and ride a stock D800/155.I had the opportunaty recently to go out with a guy on a new 10 nytro boosted plus he let me ride it.Its a beautifull sled and very spendy.There was no noticable turbo lag just the skis pointed in the air when you pinned it.We boondocked thru the trees all day and I know that bigger heavier boosted sled was a workout.I loved the wheelies it could pull.When I jumped back on my sled it felt light,nimble and 2 stroke snappy.It felt like going from a heavy 4 stroke dirtbike with tons of torque too a light snappy 250 2 stroke.I grew up on light weight 2 strokes so that is my preferance.I would love too try a boosted dragon should the oppotunaty arise.If I was younger and had more strenght I would love his boosted nytro but turning 50 yrs old this coming july I need light weight ease of riding

 

[powderman800]

Supercharged

Empire Diesel Performance had a supercharged 2009 m8 (m1000?) at the Jackson Hole Hillclimbs. They don't have it on their website yet. I suspect they are still testing it. It looked very clean and had a speedwerx pipe and can so I suspect that speedwerx will make a pipe for super chargers just as they do for the turbo. It used a procharger supercharger which they sell and he said the kit would be the same as a turbocharger. He also said it would be a 'complete kit' (whatever that is?)

P.S. - I have pics and will upload as soon as I can find that darn USB cable.

 

[TIM]

you can have all the fun in the world with the turbo. cornices are no big deal. as far as the jumps on the fly, you have to look farther ahead to get them the way you are probably used to. trees no problem, 3\4 throttle climbs are tought due to the lean mid range, unless always blipping.

the issue with them to me, is the maintence and constant tweaking. You need to be a really good expierenced tuner. if not don't make my mistake.
I can ride them with dang near anyone. But i am not mechanically inclined atall. I am selling mine. and going back to a stocker, that runs good all the time. not just some of the time.

tim

 

[AdrenalineAddict]

How are you doing Matty?
The old UBR900 is still running great, I will more than likely ride it until it's not repairable anymore. I've done a bit of turbo riding this year and for the most part really think I would enjoy it, but if I don't have that little (life saving) do or die blip of the throttle I'm going to have to alter my riding style a bit. I realize there is not much lag, but when going from a super responsive normally aspirated 900 to a minimal lag turbo, there is definitely a lag. I am just a little curious if anyone has gone turbo and found out they really miss the response in the tight situations? I have a gut feeling that I would miss it. Most the guys I ride with on a regular basis now seem to avoid the tight situations and doing drops has become a thing of the past.

 

[Highmarker]

yeah it does seem that everyone is going more and more towards point and shoot. Thats ok.....more fresh snow in the trees for me! Funny thing is you also get all the posers out at the big hills who have no clue how to really ride a mouintain sled but definatly have the money for some serious horse power so all of the sudden they are gods gift to our sport...makes me laugh

 

[AdrenalineAddict]

That makes me laugh a bit also, I'm definitely seeing more talking on the mountain than riding these days, but hey, to each his own. I've seen several turbo's with recurring issues that won't seem to run more than a few hundred miles before another problem arises such as deto, lean burndown, loss of boost, cracked pipe, leaky grafoil doughnut, torn motor mounts. I guess most of these issues could probably be avoided with regular scheduled maintenance. I think some of the deto and burndown issues are from those folks who really think they can run pump gas or those who start cheating a bit on octane believing they can get away with it. I typically ride 2,500 miles a season and prefer a gas and go sled, I haven't seen a pump gasser go 2,500 miles yet without any issues, they might, I just don't ride with anyone that logs those kind of miles. A couple of my friends might hit the 1,600 mile mark by the end of the season, we'll see if they hold up. That brings me to another question, has anyone run a pumpgasser (Dragon or M8) 3,000 trouble free miles?

 

[I Dare Ya Rene!]

Hey Duke, Almost 6000 km logged this year and lovin my turbo Nytro. I believe it is a dead issue, it all comes down to the rider. I know several guys who have blinged out 2 strokes and 4 strokes who can't ride in the trees or go off drops. Does that mean the machines are no good in the trees or drops, not at all! Try and follow Laird M on his Nytro, Steveo on his Apex, Geoff Kyle on his XP....All of the new sleds out there work well in the trees with a rider that knows how to ride. As for any turbo, you need a good one with a good install to have reliability. Lots of pow in the hills right now! Cheers, Rene.

 

[WKR]

That makes me laugh a bit also, I'm definitely seeing more talking on the mountain than riding these days, but hey, to each his own. I've seen several turbo's with recurring issues that won't seem to run more than a few hundred miles before another problem arises such as deto, lean burndown, loss of boost, cracked pipe, leaky grafoil doughnut, torn motor mounts. I guess most of these issues could probably be avoided with regular scheduled maintenance. I think some of the deto and burndown issues are from those folks who really think they can run pump gas or those who start cheating a bit on octane believing they can get away with it. I typically ride 2,500 miles a season and prefer a gas and go sled, I haven't seen a pump gasser go 2,500 miles yet without any issues, they might, I just don't ride with anyone that logs those kind of miles. A couple of my friends might hit the 1,600 mile mark by the end of the season, we'll see if they hold up. That brings me to another question, has anyone run a pumpgasser (Dragon or M8) 3,000 trouble free miles?

For your reference, I put over 1500 miles on 2 different m7t's with 2 days of tuning headaches at the beginning of each build, then just pull the rope and go with regular scheduled maintanance. I pulled the top end off of both at the end of each season, intercooled sled was ready for another 1500 miles, non intercooled sled was alright but warranted new pistons and a hone as it was all apart already. Both ran 9-10 psi all year and were set up to never run over 11.5 on the afr. In fact after the second one was dialed, it had no gauges just the stock cluster to show overheat in water temp on trail. both were very reliable, majority of riding is tree and boondocking, throttle blip to save yourself is a bit trickier, you need a bit more planning and control pre flight than you generally have with a resposive big bore. just my 2 cents.

 

[Ron]

I have a friend that went from Big Bores to a Turbo and he is going back next year to a lightweight non T sled. He likes dry powder and boondocking more than climbing. His issue with the T was the add'l weight on the front end and the initial throttle response still had a little lag that didn't suit his style of riding.
Yamaha's seem to take a Turbo and still stay together for higher mileage than 2 stroke T's.
Then there is the resale value if $ is an issue for anyone. They cost $'s to build and cost $'s (lost) again to sell-in some cases. Seems to me that a Turbo is still the way to go if you want the power and understand the issues. They will never be as nimble as the new lightweight sleds but on the other hand are lighter than sleds we loved a few years ago.

 

[AdrenalineAddict]

I realize the four-stroke riders don't have any longevity issues, but how about high mileage 8lbs. boost two stroke sleds. Has anyone put 2,500 or 3,000 hard miles on one in a season without any issues. The intercooled 1,500 mile sled sounds promising anyway. I'm not interested in going to a heavy sled, I'm getting older and weaker by the day. The longevity issue really has me concerned, I've seen several turboed twos on tow ropes this season. With two children in college there are $0.00 in the budget for mid season breakdowns.

 

[TIM]

adrenaline
expect to have something break. that is the reality of mod sleds.
the only sleds that are trouble free are ones that are not road at all.

drops are not an issue with these sleds also.

 

[Spur]

Well, I can't say this is across the board, but we went on the ride of the season yesterday. Large group and 4 to 5 ft of fresh. Everybody but the boosted Apexes and Nytro's had breathability problems because of the deep snow, but at the end of the day we left all 3 09 stock XP's with some kind of internal motor problems, and one stock 2010 M8 with a hole in a piston on the mountain. You would have had a hard time convincing anybody on this trip stock sleds are more reliable LOL. I think guys riding stock sled are having to work them to hard to keep up with the turbo sleds. Maybe holding to much full throttle RPM for to long??? I really don't know. What I do know is at least in my area stock sled are no more reliable than turbo sleds.

My personal belief is if you don't understand motors, tuning, and maintenance turbo's may not be for you. There are plenty of reliable kits out there, but they all require some knowledge to keep them working effectively. This can be done at home in your shop, and need not interfer with your riding time in most cases.

I don't understand this comment: "yeah it does seem that everyone is going more and more towards point and shoot."

I don't know how sledding can be going more and more toward point and shoot, it has always been about point and shoot. If anything it would have to be going back to point and shoot. The whole mountain riding era was built around getting the high mark on the hill. LW modding and HP building was never to make a better boon docking sled. It has always been about climbing hills. There has been more focus put on BD since it cost big bucks to play in the hill climbing game, but hill climbing is still the backbone of mountain riding IMO.

 

[Mjunkie]

I've had a '05 M7 with a BB 1000cc cutler motor in it for several years now. The responsiviness and power gains have been great, and I've absolutely loved my sled for those years. I'm the kind of guy that is always looking for a little more, just to keep the smile growing on my face. I've spent a lot of time and money improving what to me was an already wonderful sled. I've gotten to the point now where the only improvement I see now possible is to either try the turbo, or start over with a new sled. I haven't ridden many turbo sleds, and the few I have, have been impressive, but like some have said on here, I think I'd miss that absolutely instantaneous throttle response. The other thing is that I feel I'm pretty knowledgeable about how a motor works and the many things that have to work just right together to make a very good running motor, turbos are quite simple in reality, but I know there is a lot that I don't understand about them. Stuff that will be very important to know in the tuning and setting-up stage of a turbo sled, that I don't have experience with, and that makes me nervous about them. I've decided I'm going to stick with normally aspirated for now, going with what I understand well and feel comfortable with, and a way that won't make me change any of my riding characteristics. It's going to be a project to do, but since I've had such good luck with the cutler BB, I'm going to stick with that, it will just be a 1300cc in a M7 instead of a 1000cc. I think that will keep me satisfied for awhile...

 

[justinkredible56]

it will just be a 1300cc in a M7

haha! I never would have thought I would hear that sentence a few years ago...funny how much the turbo introduction to the sled world has changed the game.

 

[Scott]

I know a lot of people who are experienced with turbos...carbed and efi...and they are getting out and going to back to...whatever you call that.

I know a lot of people who are now comfortable getting into turbos now that they are efi's...

Sooo, I guess what I am saying is that turbo owners come and go. LOL