OIL RATIO DISCUSSION ON THE 800 CFI MOTORS
- Thread starter mountainhorse
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Daniel Boondocker
Well-known member
Nice thread.
Just to clarify mixing oil in the gas. I once burned down a modded engine dependent on tank mix by adding oil to the gas tank. The oil doesn't disperse by itself just by pouring it into the gas tank. It can pool and concentrate on the bottom of the tank. Then the top of the tank is low on oil concentration. Pouring fuel on top of the oil and shaking the sled isn't enough to disperse it. And some oil takes more agitation than others.
Mixing the oil in the gas is best done by measuring it into a gas can before the gas then shaking it well before you put it in the sled.
Just to clarify mixing oil in the gas. I once burned down a modded engine dependent on tank mix by adding oil to the gas tank. The oil doesn't disperse by itself just by pouring it into the gas tank. It can pool and concentrate on the bottom of the tank. Then the top of the tank is low on oil concentration. Pouring fuel on top of the oil and shaking the sled isn't enough to disperse it. And some oil takes more agitation than others.
Mixing the oil in the gas is best done by measuring it into a gas can before the gas then shaking it well before you put it in the sled.
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The premix is kind of a moot point on the PRO as there is none of the fuel making it into the bottom end as pointed out earlier.
The premix will help lube the top end a bit better though.
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The premix will help lube the top end a bit better though.
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Rocketboy
Member
I will first say thanks to all of you for this post. I guess this is more of question than statement as I am not a big motor person.
I understand that the pre mix is not getting down to the crank. If that is the case we are not getting fuel down to the crank either to wash the oil off. If we are not washing it off could that be the reason that it needs a little less oil?
Now I understand the 32:1 idea and Ski Doo race school said 32:1 on the race sled a few years ago... Now there I can see that much oil as the gas was also getting to the crank if I understand it correctly and would be washing some of the oil off in turn needing more to keep it lubed.
Now- I may have just proved that I don't know much about motors so I am open to hear what I don't understand in what I put above.
That all being said- I have a 2011 155 that has 500 miles on it. Yes it had 500 on it when I got it..... correct- I have not even gotten to drive it yet. Don't know if I will before we head out west so I am not sure if I should turn the pump or not. I don't know what ratio I am at now and hate to be fouling out plugs on the side of the hill, but hate to have to pull it out of the hills as well!!
Thanks again for all of the info!!
I understand that the pre mix is not getting down to the crank. If that is the case we are not getting fuel down to the crank either to wash the oil off. If we are not washing it off could that be the reason that it needs a little less oil?
Now I understand the 32:1 idea and Ski Doo race school said 32:1 on the race sled a few years ago... Now there I can see that much oil as the gas was also getting to the crank if I understand it correctly and would be washing some of the oil off in turn needing more to keep it lubed.
Now- I may have just proved that I don't know much about motors so I am open to hear what I don't understand in what I put above.
That all being said- I have a 2011 155 that has 500 miles on it. Yes it had 500 on it when I got it..... correct- I have not even gotten to drive it yet. Don't know if I will before we head out west so I am not sure if I should turn the pump or not. I don't know what ratio I am at now and hate to be fouling out plugs on the side of the hill, but hate to have to pull it out of the hills as well!!
Thanks again for all of the info!!
I dont think that the gasoline diminishes the injection stream to any significant degree since it is shot directly at the lower rods thru the slots... and thru the bearings first.
I think that Kelsey or Curt could answer that one better than I.
Great Question Though!!!
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I think that Kelsey or Curt could answer that one better than I.
Great Question Though!!!
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Rocketboy, FWIW, I adjusted the pump on my 09 RMK and am around 40:1 now - the pump arm alignment arrow is just above the horizontal line on the pump body
- here's a link to my oil pump pic: http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2775544&postcount=14
With that being said, I was also running a 40:1 pre-mix for breaking in my new SLP 777 BB kitted engine. I had zero problems with plug fouling, but I am using NGK irridium plugs. I'll continue adding about 1/2 to 3/4 of an ounce of oil for every gallon of fuel I put into the sled as added insurance.
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Rocketboy
Member
I was talking on carbed motor compare to the CFI motor...... I think that fuel that was mixed as it got in the case would have some affect on washing or diluting the oil. (This is why I am not a motor guy!!!)
By the way the 40:1 pump output ratio I mentioned was a very roughly measured ratio so don't think if you put the mark where I did, you'll get 40:1.
There is some great onfo in this post. Thanks! We had another post going that started as overheating and evolved into oil consumption. I took some very accurate oil consumption checks on my rental sleds.
2012 600 rmk's (four checked) 1.8 oz, per gallon
2011 800 Pro Rmk 2.75 oz per gallon
2012 800 Standard RMK 2.25 oz per gallon
We have figured that the solution is to adjust the pump and/or add oil. Athough we know that the 800's don't consume much, the 600's are running at a critically low level. It may be a good service to anyone knowing people riding 2012 600's to make these 600 riders aware of the oiling issues.
2012 600 rmk's (four checked) 1.8 oz, per gallon
2011 800 Pro Rmk 2.75 oz per gallon
2012 800 Standard RMK 2.25 oz per gallon
We have figured that the solution is to adjust the pump and/or add oil. Athough we know that the 800's don't consume much, the 600's are running at a critically low level. It may be a good service to anyone knowing people riding 2012 600's to make these 600 riders aware of the oiling issues.
I'm not reading correctly or I just don't believe anyone saying that you are not helping the crank bearings by adding oil to the gas tank. The gas is sprayed directly onto the rod bearing that is in the crankcase then mixed in the case and forced up the transfer ports to the top of the piston, if this were not so the case would eventually fill with oil that is pumped on the bearings. The volume of the case and area of transfer ports is critical to the ability of the motor to make HP. Because of the gas being sprayed onto the rod bearing is exactually why summer storage is so important
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Oregonsledder
Well-known member
The issues is... without the auto oiling system, which has an oil line going to each end of the crank feeding oil directly to the PTO and Mag side crank bearings.... without the oiling system these end bearing will not get as much oil. Some oil... yes, as much...no.
injectors are placed in the transfer port,not trottlebody injectors.similar to the 600SDI skidoo/rotax engine.no fuel goes via crankcase,only air and oil from oil injection pump.wonder why rotax scrapped the 800 SDI engine?
NO GAS IN THE CRANK CASE on a 2011/12 motor...The injectors on a PRO motor fire UP into the transfer port.. NOT at all into the crankcase.
There are two oil nozzles (aka check valves..90 degree brass fittings in the case. That spray at the lower rod in the crankcase... the rod has an EDM slot cut into it. The nozzles spray "at" that slot when the crank comes around to 90 degrees BTDC or so. The oil does not pool in the case... too much air moving for that to happen.
So NO... You are NOT helping the crank NOR the cylinder skirts by adding oil to the gas in the tank.
The oil is atomized by the oil nozzle (not the injector) as well atomized by the spinning bearings that it is coming out of (the PTO & MAG bearing) and pushed/drawn into the transfer/cylinder.
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RKT
Well-known member
NO GAS IN THE CRANK CASE on a 2011/12 motor...The injectors on a PRO motor fire UP into the transfer port.. NOT at all into the crankcase.
There are two oil nozzles (aka check valves..90 degree brass fittings in the case. That spray at the lower rod in the crankcase... the rod has an EDM slot cut into it. The nozzles spray "at" that slot when the crank comes around to 90 degrees BTDC or so. The oil does not pool in the case... too much air moving for that to happen.
So NO... You are NOT helping the crank NOR the cylinder skirts by adding oil to the gas in the tank.
The oil is atomized by the oil nozzle (not the injector) as well atomized by the spinning bearings that it is coming out of (the PTO & MAG bearing) and pushed/drawn into the transfer/cylinder.
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Erik, are you sure about this? Is this info directly from Polaris?
I Checked my 2012 800 RMK and the scribe mark lined up below the center of the V notch, I adjusted 3 turns clockwise. Now the mark above center on the V.
I just had my sled in for a checkup (219 miles) & specificly asked them to check this, they said they did.
I will check how much oil she is using now, didn't really keep track, was adding oil in tank until I read all the oil pump adjustment threads everywhere.
I only took onf the hood & can to adjust & used a bore light & mirror to verify before after & only took about 30min and a beer to adjust.
I just had my sled in for a checkup (219 miles) & specificly asked them to check this, they said they did.
I will check how much oil she is using now, didn't really keep track, was adding oil in tank until I read all the oil pump adjustment threads everywhere.
I only took onf the hood & can to adjust & used a bore light & mirror to verify before after & only took about 30min and a beer to adjust.
I'm definately on here to learn as well..
Sorry for the "short" reply above.... I'm wrong in my life about as much as I'm right.
My guess is this pooling of oil (I've seen it too) upon dissassemby is not representative of the engine in use at temperature with all the windage from the crank and rods and air being sucked thru the motor.... Also, the synthetics dont stick to the parts as well and I'm sure that after sitting, a lot of that oil that is coating parts settles into the bottom of the crank until the engine comes up to temp and speed again.
Kelsey, no.. this info is not coming from the factory...
So a question for a question... How would a fuel injector that is firing up the boost-transfer port, only at timed intervals, add any oil to the bottom end when the engine is running?
Kelsey, what is the clearance of the crank wheels and rod to the inside of the crank case?
Would that tight clearance create turbulence and "whip" that oil around in there?
Maybe I'm the one that is missing something???
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Sorry for the "short" reply above.... I'm wrong in my life about as much as I'm right.
My guess is this pooling of oil (I've seen it too) upon dissassemby is not representative of the engine in use at temperature with all the windage from the crank and rods and air being sucked thru the motor.... Also, the synthetics dont stick to the parts as well and I'm sure that after sitting, a lot of that oil that is coating parts settles into the bottom of the crank until the engine comes up to temp and speed again.
Kelsey, no.. this info is not coming from the factory...
So a question for a question... How would a fuel injector that is firing up the boost-transfer port, only at timed intervals, add any oil to the bottom end when the engine is running?
Kelsey, what is the clearance of the crank wheels and rod to the inside of the crank case?
Would that tight clearance create turbulence and "whip" that oil around in there?
Maybe I'm the one that is missing something???
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This was the reason for my post earlier...
The injectors are located on the rear of the cylinder... above the throttle bodies in the boost-transfer port, not in the crankcase.
The injectors do not spray into the case, but at the inside wall of the rear (boost) transfer port.
The ECU "fires" this injector, it is my understanding, just as the transfer port opens to the cylinder intake stroke. The air being pushed/pulled into the cylinder takes this fuel with it... as well as the atomized oil that is moving thru the case.
That is my take on it.
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Pretty sure you are right as well eric, at 8000 rpm the oil in the crankcase will look more like a rope wrapped around the crank though..as it crashes into the crank throws and the cases it breaks up gets atomized and pulled up the transfers as well as bounced off everything..which is what lubes the wristpins, skirts and even the bigend bearing..I promise at that rpm..no oil pump can spay hard enough to shoot across the case and coat the crank...on our big race motors we went thru great effort to isolate the oil off the reciprocating mass..it hurts power..back then dry sump oil systems were just being developed..we used big wet sump pans with all sorts of baffles, trapdoors and profiled scrapers that pulled the oil away from the rotating mass, as well as feathering crank throws, and eliminating as much as we could to make everything smoother to aid oil removal...... I think most people would be dumbfounded to see the turbulance in the bottomend of a motor..
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