OIL RATIO DISCUSSION ON THE 800 CFI MOTORS

[rmk727]

Matt; a little story here . Back in my racing days I went to a Polaris racing school and a guy got up and spent 45 min on front end set up and used protractors and special tools and such and when we woke up he was done next guy was( the) Jack Struthers on another subject but he so kindly injected that he hust rotated the part one turn at a time as in would only work that way, so the end is 1 cup oil to fuel tank for every 5 gals gas added, if you forget try and remember next time.

 

[2XM3]

in my pro I add 3/4 oz per gallon as premix. Same for my wifes 700 dragon. As a side note it may also save your motor if the oil pump/lines take a crap.

 

[FTXMOTORSPORTS]

One more quick thing, (this is not to pimp Poo oil, more to add meat to one of my statements above!) I've been running VES Gold oil in my CFI Turbos and in my N/A stuff for over 2 seasons mainly because so many bad mouthed it and I had to see for myself (using it is the best testing IMO). When the sleds ( Dragon 800, Pro 800) were bone stock, we saw carbon buildup on the exh. port within 2 rides(say, 150 miles)-exhaust valves remained fairly clean. AFTER we corrected compression for our riding area and installed a fuel controller to address some of the factory deficiencies in the fuel map (mostly due to EPA requirements I'm sure) the carbon buildup issue all but disappeared.
The more we tuned , the better the results and WE ADDED MORE OIL when we began testing porting/pipes etc AND EVEN MORE WHEN TURBOS CAME INTO THE PICTURE!



Many say that "build up" and gumming issues are due to how hard and often the engine is ran wide open to "clean it out". I don't agree when it comes to fuel injected sleds(carbureted, slightly different opinion!). IMO a properly calibrated and set up EFI two stroke should be able to run sustained at any throttle opening without "build up". Why? if its calibrated right, the burn should clean itself up no matter what the throttle opening. We see all of these OEM lean areas and radical timing peaks(again, EPA cleanliness) as the cause for many of these issues.

Curt

 

[RMK-King]

Is it recommended to turn the oil pump up over just adding extra oil to the tank? By turning the oil pump up you are adding extra oil to the bottom end oil ports vs premixing you are just adding oil to the fuel.

 

[trestlecreek]

I purchased 3 sleds from Dan Adams out of his fleet. He stressed to me, to add 5 oz. of oil in the gas tank for every 10 gallons of fuel. This not only adds the additional oil to the motor, but leans it down as well. ( Stock, they run pretty rich ). If you subscribe to Dynotech, you can see the BSFA at 8100 rpm is in the .56 range (stock motor).

 

[mountainhorse]

I dont really buy the "leaning out" the fuel concept so much... there are 1,408+ Oz of gas in each tank... adding 5 oz of oil accounts for 0.0036 of the fuel (0.36%)... Not anywhere near a significant amount IMO.

If you did it at the pump... that factor goes to zero as the same Exact amount of fuel is being delivered.

Stock they run pretty rich" is a very broad statement that hearkens back more to the carbed days... A "fuel map" which is an algorithm that controls the fuel and ignition curves on the CFi motors, is dependent on RPM, Throttle position, fuel temp, barometric pressure, manifold air temp, coolant temp, pipe temp and other variables combined to generate a given fuel delivery for given conditions... it is never constant.

IMO... I agree with Jim from DynoTech (above) I don't believe that adding a small amount of additional oil is not going to change the power delivery to any significant degree ...maybe decimal points on a dyno with everything else held constant.

The central theme of this thread is..
Will adding additional oil to the engine help with engine longevity and will that additional oil give the user any noticeable change in power output?

 

[pus1100]

The fuel/oil mix makes it's way into the bearings as well. And onto the cylinder walls. The crank bearings are open to the fuel/air/oil mix that is pumped thru the cases, up thru the transfer ports and into the combustion chamber lubricating all parts it comes into contact with.'






..

would this be on the cfi4 engines only.dc cfi 2 only having transfer port injectors only,will not get premix to the cases?

 

[mountainhorse]

You bring up an EXCELLENT POINT!!!

Something I "spaced on"

I stand corrected..

The 800 CFI 2 fuel injectors fire into the boost port.

The air in the boost port only moves one direction... so... the top end and the top portion of the skirts would be the only beneficiary of the additional oil in the PRE-mix.

With premix oil...the lower part of the cylinder/piston skirts and bearings would not benefit from the additional oil.

Gotta love the forums!!

Thank you.

So yes..that additional oil in the fuel would only lubricate the top end and not the bearings or skirts on the DC-CFi-2 (and the CFI-4 at idle speeds)

That would take us back to the oil pump adjustment to increase lubrication to the entire motor (bearings, piston/cyl skirts, rings)

 

[NapaMatt]

Also.. One More...

With all this talk about more oil form the get go..

Hows the rings going to Seal??

First.. we need to Break in the engine.. Say the first 300 miles.. then start adding more oil..


IDk.. Just thought some guys just might start dumping extra oil from the start, and never actually seal the rings up.. and make good power!

 

[pus1100]

on my 2011 pro rmk155 my oil consumption has been 1.5 % steady all winter.we dont use ratio over here due to the metric system.1.5% is 1.5 litre oil for every 100 litre gas(1.5 qts oil to 25 gallon gas)it's scary low oil usage,dealer has checked oil pump setting,which was in spec.sled is still under warranty,use the ves gold plus since polaris Norway may refuse oil related engine warranty claims using ANY other oil.(80$ a gallon).have 2600 km on her now without any problems.but haven't got a good feeling with the low oil usage.may adjust oil pump before season starts.

 

[Bagger]

You bring up an EXCELLENT POINT!!!

Something I "spaced on"

I stand corrected..

The 800 CFI 2 fuel injectors fire into the boost port.

The air in the boost port only moves one direction... so... the top end and the top portion of the skirts would be the only beneficiary of the additional oil in the PRE-mix.

With premix oil...the lower part of the cylinder/piston skirts and bearings would not benefit from the additional oil.

Gotta love the forums!!

Thank you.

So yes..that additional oil in the fuel would only lubricate the top end and not the bearings or skirts on the DC-CFi-2 (and the CFI-4 at idle speeds)

That would take us back to the oil pump adjustment to increase lubrication to the entire motor (bearings, piston/cyl skirts, rings)

Ok, so ya'll have got to help me out here, I'm not understanding. The oil from the injector pump is introduced into the engine where? Apperantly NOT mixed with the fuel prior to the combustion chamber . . . ?

Bag

 

[mountainhorse]

1.5% is aprox 66:1 (fuel/oil).... Pretty lean IMO.

WOW... $80 per gallon of oil.

 

[pus1100]

yes it's lean.hope to see how the sleds in us/canada do compare.infact my pro is leaner on oil but harder on fuel than my wifes 09 renegade 600 etec when i fill them up.etec oil usage is around 2%.comparing distance traveled on the odometers,poo odometer reads way less km's than doos.65km vs 77km's on etec when we have driven the excact same distance.etecs get great milage,but odometer lies a bit.

 

[pus1100]

Ok, so ya'll have got to help me out here, I'm not understanding. The oil from the injector pump is introduced into the engine where? Apperantly NOT mixed with the fuel prior to the combustion chamber . . . ?

Bag

injection oil goes to crankcase and outer crankcase bearings first before it's forced with airflow up to the topend.

 

[FTXMOTORSPORTS]

Also.. One More...

With all this talk about more oil form the get go..

Hows the rings going to Seal??

First.. we need to Break in the engine.. Say the first 300 miles.. then start adding more oil..


IDk.. Just thought some guys just might start dumping extra oil from the start, and never actually seal the rings up.. and make good power!

Matt, extra oil is a benefit to break in-not a detriment. Its the type of oil you have to watch.

 

[Norway]

Don't think I'm just spouting here, just relaying real world experiences that have turned into gospel in my shop.

Curt

Can you hear a brother say AMEN!!!!!

It's damn good to hear some good old two-stroke wisdom, no hitech electronic mumbo - jumbo.

Anyway, have the same story from this side of the pond. PF racing found Hp increase up to the same levels on the dyno. And those of us that dont want to mess with oilpump settings on new sleds can just add that ounce to the tank.

RS

 

[mountainhorse]

Bag, the oil is injected thru nozzles in the crank cases... and in-through the bearings.

It atomizes the oil with the dry air flow coming from the throttle bodies thru the reed valves and keeps the engine lubed.

Apperantly NOT mixed with the fuel prior to the combustion chamber . . . ?

Thats correct... with the exception of the small amount of oil that moves through the boost port where the fuel-injector "sprays".

It is mixed with the air flowing through the cases and lubes the rod bearings and wrist pin along with the lower skirt below the rings at BDC.

 

[Oregonsledder]

Bag, the oil is injected thru nozzles in the crank cases... and in-through the bearings.

It atomizes the oil with the dry air flow coming from the throttle bodies thru the reed valves and keeps the engine lubed.



Thats correct... with the exception of the small amount of oil that moves through the boost port where the fuel-injector "sprays".

It is mixed with the air flowing through the cases and lubes the rod bearings and wrist pin along with the lower skirt below the rings at BDC.

On the older Polaris sleds there is a check valve at each end of the crank. I had one go bad and it would let oil drain into the crank case while the sled was setting. Upon startup it would smoke like crazy for a little bit then clear out. I replaced the faulty check valve and the oil level in the tank quit dropping and no more excessive smoke.

 

[richracer1]

What I find interesting is there's a Tech Tip thread in the IQ section that suggests leaning out the fuel/oil ratio to like 55:1 to 60:1. When some knowledgeable folks here have suggested increasing/running the fuel/oil ratio somewhere between 32:1 to 40:1. I remember back in the day of pre-mix, Dad would mix a quart of oil with 5 gal of gas, a 20:1 ratio - they did smoke like hell though.

 

[rocket]

Nice discussion - always good to hear input on some of these important issues. I tend to agree about the general comments about oil consumption being reduced by EPA concerns and I'll also throw out the "PR" aspect of sleds that smoke less and customers that "love" sleds that use less oil and fuel (despite the fact that either or both can lead to a premature death for the motor). I'll also agree that adding a bit more oil to what the factory pump setting dictates can only be helpful. The pistons in my CFI-4 800 lived a relatively long and happy life and I attribute that in no small part to increasing oil delivery to the motor (increased by 30%+). When I opened the motor up to freshen the top end, I found the crank bearings were all nice and smooth too...