New Top End in Turbod Axys - Which Pistons?

[JJ_0909]

I have to say, I appreciate both weighing in here but would like a (civil) debate.

Saying "you are wrong" and then "you are wrong" leaves us scratching our heads.

Both RK and ID have great reputations, but we all win if our understanding of the technology behind each product is better understood.

 

[mountainhorse]

Civil is the word.


No need to get into a cheerleader battle either.



.

 

[indydan]

I have to say, I appreciate both weighing in here but would like a (civil) debate.

Saying "you are wrong" and then "you are wrong" leaves us scratching our heads.

Both RK and ID have great reputations, but we all win if our understanding of the technology behind each product is better understood.

civil would be nice. And what we want is to find out what's true & what's hype to make money.

It's this simple, aftermarket shops that are not OEM dealers do not like OEM pistons for one reason..... They are really expensive and there is no margin in them.

It's pretty easy to become a dealer for Western Power, CVTECH, Tucker, Land & Sea, And many other aftermarket companies if you have all the requirements of a legit business.

Then your Pistons options come with 30 to 40% margins .....then in the spring they blow them out at close out prices. Then land on eBay to flood the market with sub-par pistons.

CAST - SPI, SPX, and a few others branded from the same plant in Taiwan. ( not a bad product for the money ) but not even close to an OEM. ** best used in low horse power motors ** ( don't get me wrong Taiwan makes some really state of the art products ) - but you also get what you pay for.

Forged - Wiseco, Woosner ( both really nice pieces but they expand faster & to a bigger size then the OEM Piston. ) pron to 4 corner seize.... Right when you need them the most.

The new ProX that runs under the wiseco house ( absolute garbage ) I got stung really bad by these a fews ago. ( the bad part about this is that Wiseco flat out lied and said they are the EXACT same as the old PRO-X ART Japanese piece ) WRONG FLAT OUT LIE !!

If you go the road of selling after market ( cast ) Pistons its much easier to get the job because the prices are way under 1/2 the OEM Part is.

Which makes more room for labor, the over all service bill is much less. And the margin live able.

Then move to Wiseco Or German made Woosner expensive retail price... Running on and flying the FORGED flag ( strong faster better )

30 to 40% dealer discount on a piston that has a much higher retail price means of course 30 to 40% of a much high retail price. ( more profit )

Then you take shops that contact Woosner & Wiseco directly and ask what it takes to get distributor prices..... They give you a qty number and then you buy 40 to 60% off of retail.

Then you see all the racers running around with Wiseco stickers on their sleds that have OEM pistons in them that helps people think they are great.


The bottom line is this........ I don't run around forums and Facebook ramming scare tactics up people's butts to get them to tear a perfectly good motor apart and install something that's sub-par compared to the OEM.

I'm 55 years old and I was running around my dads snowmobile dealersship back in 1968 thru 1975 and you couldn't drag me out of there.

I have plenty of business, and letting nature take its course has been just great to me & my family.

I am not here to get any business.... Right now on this thread I am here for one reason..... To make damn sure you all get a fair shot at what is the truth for what's best for your Polaris motor.

I say the only real way to find out some accurate info is to have a contest.

Need volunteers- all brand new sleds.

We need 2 riders from the mountains

And 2 riders from the flatlands

Requirements must be at least 5000 mile average per year.

Indy Specialty will build 2 of the motors ( the only thing Indy Specialty will do to the stock motor is HG7 Hone the cylinder and put it back together )

RK-tech will build the other 2 motors.

Sleds get no special treatment - basic warm up, and normal maintenance.

Would prefer riders that ride hard and ride when it's really cold not just sissy riders that ride above zero.

All riders will just simply ride until they fail.

The first sled to fail that builder owes the other shop $5000 dollars.

When the second sled fails $5000 goes to the other shop.

Last but not least - none of the 4 riders can be friends or pals with either shop owner.

There is nothing worse then a sand bagger that pushes a lie for free products.

Or we could have a simpler contest....

What shop answers their phone if a customer calls with a 4 corner seized piston and wants warranty. ( or who has the largest number of customers that have been told..... You must have bled it wrong, you must have cold seized it, you didn't warm it up long enough ) and so on.

Either contest is fine with me.

Or we could let the forum members pick a contest they think would be better.

I am game to show where the real piston truths are.

** ( let's all keep in mind this all started from a RK-tech customer * xpturbo600 * ( not RK-Tech ) claiming to be a piston expert.) ** - xpturbo600 was cheerleading and fly a flag he knows nothing about ** do everyone a favor, don’t give out " Fake News ( Fake facts that are leading people to something you know nothing about )

And that's just plain 100% not true. Fake News.

Let me be perfectly clear I am not suggesting that every one run a 150 plus horse power 2 stroke 5000 miles without considering a rebuild if it starts to show you signs of power loss.

But my experience points me to what I know is very possible...... I have seen in excess of 15,000 miles on a OEM stock Polaris 800 motor flatlander sled. * ( this customer installs swimming pools in the summer and he has all winter off ) *

His 2008 dragon went 12,000 plus before I rebuilt it.... ( it was still running & he still owns it ) his 2012 went past 15,000 and was still running... ( I built the 2012 into a Long Rod & asked him to run it until it stops ) my gut says it will go past 20,000....... And it will take 4 new drive clutches to get it there. This guy installs a new clutch every year and a new oil pump at rebuild time. And his chassis maintenance is off the charts.

My experience tells me ....There is no piston other then an OEM that could make that journey.

Dan

 

[AKFULLTHROTTLE]

I can personal say I have ran a few different pistons over the years boosted and non boosted. Now I have taken out some stock pistons due to Det but that is not the pistons fault.

I can say I have had more after market forged pistons from some very reputable companies have 4 corner burns downs then I would like. The stock piston seams to always out perform the forged aftermarket pistons in my boosted applications.

After a few pistons and mono blocks I have decided to stick with OEM.

I have yet to run the Pro pistons in the Axys HO yet just because I like the idea of the oil groves, but thats just me... I have no testing in that one. I really like these Axys HO pistons. I feel there is more issues in plating/bore than anything on these engines.

 

[Davajn]

Wall of text

Have you ran any forged pistons on a turboed axys?

If so, was that without intercooler?

And what was the result?

 

[Vfrtrader]

OK, I'm confused. I thought Polaris motors had loose fitting pistons that would put extra stress on the skits and many would break, toasting the motor. Year after year Polaris just thickened the skits and the failures dropped each year. All the pistons kits, just put a better fitting piston and thus a more dependable motor. True or false? So, did Indy Dad just say its the luck of the draw in the mass produced cylinders? Bad honed job motor will fail in less than 1200 miles, good hone job could get 5000 or more?

Also, I'm new to turbotown this year, is it the opinion of experienced Turboites that turboed motors are more dependable? Because of the above theory of greater crank pressure or perhaps boosted fuel motors run cooler?

 

[BILTIT]

OK, I'm confused. I thought Polaris motors had loose fitting pistons that would put extra stress on the skits and many would break, toasting the motor. Year after year Polaris just thickened the skits and the failures dropped each year. All the pistons kits, just put a better fitting piston and thus a more dependable motor. True or false? So, did Indy Dad just say its the luck of the draw in the mass produced cylinders? Bad honed job motor will fail in less than 1200 miles, good hone job could get 5000 or more?

Also, I'm new to turbotown this year, is it the opinion of experienced Turboites that turboed motors are more dependable? Because of the above theory of greater crank pressure or perhaps boosted fuel motors run cooler?

See here:

https://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=433563

 

[Vfrtrader]

Thanks a million BILTIT, that was very helpful. And a special thanks to Indy Dan, no longer confused.

 

[AKFULLTHROTTLE]

Have you ran any forged pistons on a turboed axys?

If so, was that without intercooler?

And what was the result?

Yes

Yes

Went back to stock

 

[sumtinwong]

not trying to poke at anyone but I would riley like to see the challenge go thru friendly competition is how we get better products and are able to choose what's best for us as the consumer we as SNOWEST should promote this competition and ones like it!!!

 

[indydan]

not trying to poke at anyone but I would riley like to see the challenge go thru friendly competition is how we get better products and are able to choose what's best for us as the consumer we as SNOWEST should promote this competition and ones like it!!!

I believe what would be best for the consumer is to band all business from the forums.....

On one hand the internet is a great, and on the other hand a bit of a train wreck for both business and consumer.

The internet has 3 basic Macro levels...... And of course millions of micro levels.

Someone gets up in the morning and somewhere thru out the day something happens to this said person or to something this person owns..... Now days a Knee jerk reaction is to go to the net.

Level one - The person seems to get is answer within moments on the first page of google or a forum on that subject.

Level two - The tireless researcher...........that literally reads him or her self into data over load.

Level three - try and talk to as many people as possible that have actually tried used all option available.

And of course these levels are extremely different based on topic or item.

Humans are the most complex animal on the planet and they have natural born instinct to make things better.

That being said..... companies/buusiness's are trying to supply a product that is in demand. Period

The only thing that will ever truely help the consumer get what he or she wants is time in other words testing testing testing by the consumer...... Now days the companies/business's do not have time to test enough to promise anyone anything.

The worse possible thing that can happen is controling the info from within the system..... when the BEAST starts controling the info for the advertiser I.E. Company/Business then the consumer starts to lose. ** example - deleteing posts and hiding the truth.... or the fact that something else is better except that better product comes from a business thats not in the financial loop.

Then what happens is an underground system starts to develop..... in the form of a private message ** or e-mail ** that the masses don't get to see. The consumer in the end always finds the truth.

example a thread starts out with a great title or subject line and turns into a cat fight between either companies or consumers from the different product sides.

The consumer in need of accurate info loses at that point.

I have been in the sled business long enough to where long term customers from Indy Specialty know i am here to provide a service of as high of quality as we possibly can based on the equipment and talents we have at that point in time.......and with the hopes of some profits for the efferts can purchase better equiment to constantly improve the product.

There are times where even the most experience players in any business can make a product or service a product and think 100% they are completely offering the best product....And can be 100% wrong......it happened to Indy Specialty when we invested 10's of thousands of dollars updating our hone heads to new super abraisives for Nic-plated cylinders.

The abrasives we were sold were completely wrong and we destroyed customers rings and pistons to a level i shutter to think about.

How did it happen ? one simple thing..... the tech guy that set the order up gave completely incorrect part numbers.

What could I do ? it tool a full season to figure out what was going on by customers saying it ran great for a few rides and then just started losing power.

What was the fix ? put my head down lock it in Four wheel drive Low Lock and dig my way out and fix peoples motors. Stand by your customer with a vengence and everything else takes care of itself.

That was example of trying to make things better and they got WAY worse instead until we figured it out.

The good side of the story is now we learned how to get silicon Carbide cylinders smoother then ever seen before and the rings and piston now last longer then ever before.

The end user will forever be the best advertiser you will ever have provided you give him or her a great product support.

The demand of the snowmobile sport is so agressive from October to february that no full time snowmobile business can keep up.

I believe the best thing that could happen here is For Indy Specialty and Rk-Tech to simply discontinue any stupid back and forth crap. ** its stupid ** and tasteless. a Gentalmens Hand shake to completely quit with the all the self promoting.

I will remove all forge piston banter from my ebay listings, and you remove and the Long Rod banter on your website.

Because i am pretty sure you believe that your customers will never trade their Forged pistons for Cast Pistons.

And I am pretty sure that none of my customers are going to trade
their Long Rods for short ones.

And what also stops.... is any running around self promoting and cramming theroies on sled forums and facebook coping and pasting self writen tech articals.

In the long run for the consumer its better to just let nature take its course and let the consumer deside what works best for them and let the products do the talking.


Or if you want to just keep it the same miserable way it is now.... Then we will do just that and let the ball land where it may.

Sled shops really don't have time to dick around like this.

Dan

 

[RKT]

I believe what would be best for the consumer is to band all business from the forums.....

On one hand the internet is a great, and on the other hand a bit of a train wreck for both business and consumer.

The internet has 3 basic Macro levels...... And of course millions of micro levels.

Someone gets up in the morning and somewhere thru out the day something happens to this said person or to something this person owns..... Now days a Knee jerk reaction is to go to the net.

Level one - The person seems to get is answer within moments on the first page of google or a forum on that subject.

Level two - The tireless researcher...........that literally reads him or her self into data over load.

Level three - try and talk to as many people as possible that have actually tried used all option available.

And of course these levels are extremely different based on topic or item.

Humans are the most complex animal on the planet and they have natural born instinct to make things better.

That being said..... companies/buusiness's are trying to supply a product that is in demand. Period

The only thing that will ever truely help the consumer get what he or she wants is time in other words testing testing testing by the consumer...... Now days the companies/business's do not have time to test enough to promise anyone anything.

The worse possible thing that can happen is controling the info from within the system..... when the BEAST starts controling the info for the advertiser I.E. Company/Business then the consumer starts to lose. ** example - deleteing posts and hiding the truth.... or the fact that something else is better except that better product comes from a business thats not in the financial loop.

Then what happens is an underground system starts to develop..... in the form of a private message ** or e-mail ** that the masses don't get to see. The consumer in the end always finds the truth.

example a thread starts out with a great title or subject line and turns into a cat fight between either companies or consumers from the different product sides.

The consumer in need of accurate info loses at that point.

I have been in the sled business long enough to where long term customers from Indy Specialty know i am here to provide a service of as high of quality as we possibly can based on the equipment and talents we have at that point in time.......and with the hopes of some profits for the efferts can purchase better equiment to constantly improve the product.

There are times where even the most experience players in any business can make a product or service a product and think 100% they are completely offering the best product....And can be 100% wrong......Hell it happened to Indy Specialty when we invested 10's of thousands of dollars updating our hone heads to new super abraisives for Nic-plated cylinders.

The abrasives we were sold were completely wrong and we destroyed customers rings and pistons to a level i shutter to think about.

How did it happen ? one simple thing..... the tech guy that set the order up gave completely incorrect part numbers.

What could I do ? it tool a full season to figure out what was going on by customers saying it ran great for a few rides and then just started losing power.

What was the fix ? put my head down lock it in Four wheel drive Low Lock and dig my way out and fix peoples motors. Stand by your customer with a vengence and everything else takes care of itself.

That was example of trying to make things better and they got WAY worse instead until we figured it out.

The good side of the story is now we learned how to get silicon Carbide cylinders smoother then ever seen before and the rings and piston now last longer then ever before.

The end user will forever be the best advertiser you will ever have provided you give him or her a great product support.

The demand of the snowmobile sport is so agressive from October to february that no full time snowmobile business can keep up.

I believe the best thing that could happen here is For Indy Specialty and Rk-Tech to simply discontinue any stupid back and forth crap. ** its stupid ** and tasteless. a Gentalmens Hand shake to completely quit with the all the self promoting.

I will remove all forge piston banter from my ebay listings, and you remove and the Long Rod banter on your website.

Because i am pretty sure you believe that your customers will never trade their Forged pistons for Cast Pistons.

And I am pretty sure that none of my customers are going to trade
their Long Rods for short ones.

And what also stops.... is any running around self promoting and cramming theroies on sled forums and facebook coping and pasting self writen tech articals.

In the long run for the consumer its better to just let nature take its course and let the consumer deside what works best for them and let the products do the talking.


Or if you want to just keep it the same miserable way it is now.... Then we will do just that and let the ball land where it may.

Sled shops really don't have time to dick around like this.

Dan

Hey Dan,,, That would be great.. since you are the only one on this forum promoting your products and talking about what RK Tek has done and not done..

You will see no banter back n forth from me in the last 2 years.. figured out what you just did years ago....

So, I think it would be awesome if you would quit speculating and posting "assumptions" on my products and theories only to promote yours..

Please take your own advice... that would be great!

You have not seen me on these forums for years.. and will not unless to answer your BS claims.. Again.. maybe follow suit.. Works for me!

 

[indydan]

Hey Dan,,, That would be great.. since you are the only one on this forum promoting your products and talking about what RK Tek has done and not done..

You will see no banter back n forth from me in the last 2 years.. figured out what you just did years ago....

So, I think it would be awesome if you would quit speculating and posting "assumptions" on my products and theories only to promote yours..

Please take your own advice... that would be great!

You have not seen me on these forums for years.. and will not unless to answer your BS claims.. Again.. maybe follow suit.. Works for me!

You stop copy and pasting your forged piston theories every time you see a polaris top end post and i’ll Leave you alone.

Done deal

 

[sumtinwong]

it was not my intention to start WW3 between you to!! to me it was just as simple as my buddy saying "well my sleds faster than YOURS" and me replying hahaha not a chance in hell LETS LINE UM UP! you pin the flipper and see who wins and 1 man knows what sled/mod he's getting tomorrow!!!
and you are right dan the internet can be hard to interpret {sort the BS from truth} my mom used to say the proof is in the pudding take a bite of them all and you will know witch one is the best!... well my pudding got expensive as I got older and I cant afford to try them all and a random picked group to try the pudding for me leaves less room for loyalists and more room for truth. but if it causes ether of you hart ache please feel free to disregard my posts like I said I would like to se it happen... I am sure RKT and Indy give 100% to their product but only 1 man wins the race and the other will hopefully benefit from the loss and improve ... I find competition to bring a lot of truth to the consumers

 

[indydan]

it was not my intention to start WW3 between you to!! to me it was just as simple as my buddy saying "well my sleds faster than YOURS" and me replying hahaha not a chance in hell LETS LINE UM UP! you pin the flipper and see who wins and 1 man knows what sled/mod he's getting tomorrow!!!
and you are right dan the internet can be hard to interpret {sort the BS from truth} my mom used to say the proof is in the pudding take a bite of them all and you will know witch one is the best!... well my pudding got expensive as I got older and I cant afford to try them all and a random picked group to try the pudding for me leaves less room for loyalists and more room for truth. but if it causes ether of you hart ache please feel free to disregard my posts like I said I would like to se it happen... I am sure RKT and Indy give 100% to their product but only 1 man wins the race and the other will hopefully benefit from the loss and improve ... I find competition to bring a lot of truth to the consumers

You are talking to guy that spent many years drag racing, and winning is all you think about.

I think you are right, and I would love to see it ! And I am all if you want to put it together.

I was trying to defuse a bomb...... But the truth is I am not good at it.

I don't like Kelsey and he don't like me, I am totally fine with that and I actually enjoy it. I am a bit of a warrior.

So none of this should be up to me or Kelsey.

If this is what you want to see, why don't you start a thread and try and recruit 10 -Indy Specialty Long Rod customers and 10 rk-tech what ever customers.

I don't care if the rk-tech sleds have top-end drop in kits.....top ends with billet heads, I don't care if the rk-tech sleds have big bores or Stroker cranks.

Bring them all...... I can say this every Long Rod that shows up.... Will have stock bore, and most will have stock compression heads. ( I built a few big bores ) the motor center distance between cylinders is to narrow. Waste of time and money. The motor is just not dependable enough in big bore trim for my liking.

Indy Specialty is from Minnesota ( flatlands ) and Indy Specialty motors shouldn't stand a chance against a salted expert Mountain Company like rk-tech.

All I can say is bring it on ! I would like to open it up to a separate Turbo
Class as well.

Turbo class rules -- There are none.

I don't care if the Motors have just Indy Specialty Top-end kits only, or are Long Rod motors. The rk-tech sleds can be strokers, big bores, combos of both..... I don't care.

Dead stop drag race up the mountain.

This will be so much more fun then some kind of stupid gentalmens hand shake truce ..... Just the thought of that gave me the creeps.

So Sumitinwong ! I think you should forge ahead and make this simple friendly contest happen.

we could also add a twist to the contest -

We could do a cold motor contest - ( motors have to sit for 1 hour ) lined up ready to go...... Sit on sleds, pull the rope and punch'em wide open up the mountain at least a 1/2 mile run.

Warm motor contest. 110 degrees plus and go.

I am pretty sure this contest would answer a lot of questions for the public.

The prize goes to the consumer - who ever loses the average of the 10 sleds of both contests... That company agrees to never post on the Snowest Forums again.

Since Kelsey says Dan never says anything accurate or true.

And Kelsey is sure his products are all created on the Eight day and have been letter perfect from the beginning of time.

Dan

 

[indydan]

I think the contest sleds should also be a multiple of sleds with motors built over the last 5 years.

2 from 2013
2 from 2014
2 from 2015
2 from 2016
2 from 2017

Invoices must be in hand to compete.

Then we stay away from all fresh motors, reason being all fresh motors should run better then worn out ones even if the pistons are low grade junk.

Dan

 

[Seabass152]

Hey Dan,,, That would be great.. since you are the only one on this forum promoting your products and talking about what RK Tek has done and not done..

You will see no banter back n forth from me in the last 2 years.. figured out what you just did years ago....

So, I think it would be awesome if you would quit speculating and posting "assumptions" on my products and theories only to promote yours..

Please take your own advice... that would be great!

You have not seen me on these forums for years.. and will not unless to answer your BS claims.. Again.. maybe follow suit.. Works for me!

If memory serves me right, there was reason for this. Most of your postings went sideways when members turned on you. Your attitude, claims and general condescending nature were to blame. This wasn't a helpful post, I realize, but the hypocrisy above is thick.

 

[sumtinwong]

the only problem I seeing is it takes both sides to make this happen!! the consumer wont want to get kits and risk what they got to see what is a better product.... it will take RKT's willingness to set this bet with you with the confidence that his product will prevail and that you will half to pay him for the builds! the consumer will be hard pressed to see what it takes to blow their sled up

 

[indydan]

the only problem I seeing is it takes both sides to make this happen!! the consumer wont want to get kits and risk what they got to see what is a better product.... it will take RKT's willingness to set this bet with you with the confidence that his product will prevail and that you will half to pay him for the builds! the consumer will be hard pressed to see what it takes to blow their sled up

NO NO NO !! The contest needs to be with sleds that are already built.

There is not as much to learn from fresh motors.... Mountain sleds motors are all about heavy use & trying to make them last. ( Most fresh rebuilds run good the first few rides, it's the long term that's hard maintain )

And my experience's has showen that forged is not the way to go for long life.

3 year warranty on my Long Rod motors has proven only to work with OEM pistons.

Do yourselves a favor and call around to a bunch of retal sled business's outwest and ask them how long the stock OEM motors have been lasting.

It will blow your mind...... thousands and thousands of miles.

My problem with kelsey is the fear mongering that goes on trying to convince people that the Polaris OEM piston is sub-par.

Copy / Paste -- copy / paste -- copy / paste ( his piston therioes ) ! first it was the forums and then people caught on to the 4 corner seize walk home and then off to facebook to fear sell the uninformed.

My experience has proven that the Polaris OEM 2008 pistons are hands down better then any after market piston made.

Its not even a contest - If i installed forged piston in my 3 year warranty motors I would be bankrupt.

Dan

 

[sumtinwong]

I say the only real way to find out some accurate info is to have a contest.

Need volunteers- all brand new sleds.

We need 2 riders from the mountains

And 2 riders from the flatlands

Requirements must be at least 5000 mile average per year.

Indy Specialty will build 2 of the motors ( the only thing Indy Specialty will do to the stock motor is HG7 Hone the cylinder and put it back together )

RK-tech will build the other 2 motors.

Sleds get no special treatment - basic warm up, and normal maintenance.

Would prefer riders that ride hard and ride when it's really cold not just sissy riders that ride above zero.

All riders will just simply ride until they fail.

The first sled to fail that builder owes the other shop $5000 dollars.

When the second sled fails $5000 goes to the other shop.

Last but not least - none of the 4 riders can be friends or pals with either shop owner.

There is nothing worse then a sand bagger that pushes a lie for free products.

I thought this was what you were talking about? but I do agree with you... their is a lot more to learn from a sled that has ben road hard for years and still holding up!!! and yes that is the absolute goal of all mountain sleds!! and their riders!! to have their cake and eat it to.