ouch. 50 CAD is $38 USD for that oil.... youre getting it for literally half price. maybe ill order a few jugs outta the states. this stuff costs $13 a liter locally.
New thread engine fail discussion
- Thread starter dooman92
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ouch. 50 CAD is $38 USD for that oil.... youre getting it for literally half price. maybe ill order a few jugs outta the states. this stuff costs $13 a liter locally.
and you wonder why we run rotella t!!!! pick your poison I guess. $1000 in oil a year? or $1000 in motor rebuilds a year?
Let put a different prospective at looking at the oil . First the W is not for Weight its for" Winter". So the 0W-40 simply means it has a viscosity of 0 at 32 degrees for Winter use . The 40 number means viscosity of 40 on the scale at full operating temp 200 degree plus. It is well known fact that a thicker oil provides far better resistance to wear and metal to metal contact, And thick oil takes longer to get to all the engine parts during start up, So those who live it cold climate choose a 0W -40 oil. However snow bikes typically run water temps 140 -180 degrees and in the super cold air and drop to 80 degrees after turning off bike for several minutes ,the aluminum engine cases and clutch cover expel the oil heat very rapidly, The oil in the back of motor and sump runs around 100 -120 degrees at full throttle . So the oil is never up to operating temps like a vehicle even with water temps at 180. Therefore the oil viscosity were pumping through the engine is really around 20 viscosity which is too thin to achieve the best lubricant , Multi viscosity oils have a additive which expands as it heats up causing it to flow slower and become thicker. So on paper a 0W-40 may sound great however in the real world of snow it is likely too thin.my 5W -40 is noticeably thicker at room temps. double edge sword choosing start up protection or full throttle protection , thoughts knowledgeable individuals?
The W number and the second number do not relate to each other. The oil does not start out at zero SAE weight at 0 degrees Celsius and then get thicker to 40 SAE weight at 100 degrees celcius. So your thought of the oil being 20 weight somewhere in between in the temp range is mistaken.
These are two separate ratings on different scales. Speaking in absolute terms, 0w-40 oil will be thicker at freezing than at 100c. If you aren't sure, try your own pour tests.
The W rating refers to how easily it will flow at 0 Celsius. It is not rated in the same viscosity numbers as the high temp viscosity rating is. Totally unrelated numbers. The W rating says how thick it will be on one scale at 0 degrees celcius, and the 40 says how thick it will be on a totally different scale at 100 degrees celcius.
If operating with clean oil and under 100 celcius, it will never be thinner than 40wt. Over 100 celcius, all bets are off with any oil because the SAE test is at 100.
I dont have anything to add about the science of this. The only thing I know is how my bike shifts. Some oils I find the bike doesnt like to shift as well as others.
I recently switched to this stuff, and the bike was shifting great. Might be one for you guys to research/consider:
www.summitracing.com
I recently switched to this stuff, and the bike was shifting great. Might be one for you guys to research/consider:
Lucas Oil 10718 Lucas High Performance Motorcycle Oil | Summit Racing
Free Shipping - Lucas High Performance Motorcycle Oil with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Engine Oil at Summit Racing.
The Oil manufactures have detailed info videos and say specifically that the additives that make a multi viscosity oil thicken as it gets to 200 degrees, They specifically say the "micro" additives swell as the oil warms and this is how it is thicker and flows slower when hot. or full operating temps. None of this is My idea of how it works but a detailed analysis , They do flow test at different temps and demonstrate how multi viscosity oils works .
I started running Lucas last year, partly because it is easily available near me. My bikes shift well and seem to like it as much as anything else.I dont have anything to add about the science of this. The only thing I know is how my bike shifts. Some oils I find the bike doesnt like to shift as well as others.
I recently switched to this stuff, and the bike was shifting great. Might be one for you guys to research/consider:
Lucas Oil 10718 Lucas High Performance Motorcycle Oil | Summit Racing
Free Shipping - Lucas High Performance Motorcycle Oil with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Engine Oil at Summit Racing.
Here is some info that shows how the oil thickens as it get hot, explains how the oil does Not get thinner with heat as ewe suggest .
Some hard numbers from SAE that show that the W designation is separate, and a chart showing that multi grade oils are thinner at full temp.
Drain your oil with a cold motor one time and a hot motor the next, and see how it turns out.
The whole principle of Multi grade oil evolves around this info, There are at least 20 educational documentation videos on this .
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I just switched out to this Lucas oil as well... have yet to test it/ride afterwards, as I left on a golf holiday literally the next day lol..
Hope to have some info soon tho ! "reasonably " priced, at $10/L after taxes.. even if I change it after every ride, that's still going to be the cheapest part of the day.
If it protects the investment, I'm all for it !
I use Klotz MX4 for my summer bike and it drastically improved shift feel. I haven't tried it in the winter though. Once the engine is warm I feel like the shifting characteristics would be roughly the same. I used to be a Rotella guy, but now I am all in on Klotz.
You have misunderstood the idea of viscosity ratings. 10w-30 is not the actual viscosity number. The idea is the hot SAE30 is actually thinner than the cold SAE10W.
The "30" or "10" isn't the actual viscosity.
Let's say the viscosity rating of SAE10 has a rating of 70 units when cold and a rating of 30 units when hot.
An SAE30 would have a rating of 120 units when cold and 50 when hot.
So an oil with a SAE10W-30 would be 70 units when cold and 50 when hot. So the oils does actually get thinner when hot. It has properties of SAE10 when cold and SAE30 when hot. My units are not actual, but just to give you an example.
A bit of digging revealed that it's most likely a company call "Lube-tech" that makes Polaris Lubricants, including Timbersleds 0w-40. They are full service "white label" oil blending company that basically buys base stock oil and then adds in whatever the spec'd additives may be. They package and label the oil and all the company needs to do is price it.
Polaris PDS sheet on Timbersled 0w-40 oil, for reference.
And so the confusion continues. . After reviewing every manufactures theory and suggestions that the main bearing clearance will designate the oil viscosity when hot to prevent metal to metal contact ,The KTM manual also suggest a 10W 50 . So we know the oil never gets to full operating temps on a snowbike therefore a 0w40 is never reaching the 40 viscosity-at full throttle .Best guess 20 or 30 viscosity, Is this thick enough to remain in the bearing and float the rod and prevent damage??or is it getting expelled too quickly.Also the KTM has a ball check valve which prevents the oil channels through the whole motor from draining down upon startup .I wont run the 0W for this reason and now thinking a 10w50 is best since my bikes all all kept in a heated shop , perhaps a 5W 50 for cold areas . Toby Till would likely be the best resource to to chime in if he has pulled some failed motors down to inspect the crank bearings?
I think several folks are saying a similar thing, but just a bit of an interpretation/communication issue.
It’s understood that there are two ratings on a multi-viscosity oil; a cold viscosity rating and a hot viscosity rating. Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) developed the scale and, as previously pointed out, the “w” stands for “winter” not “weight”.
Viscosity Index Improvers (typically Polymers and copolymers) are added to lighter grade oils to allow them to behave as a thicker oil at operating temperatures and this is what makes a multi-viscosity oil. The benefit being the quicker flow rate of the light oil at winter temperatures, but once up to operating temperature, the oil behaves like a heavier single grade oil of the same rating. The reason for this is the temperature-dependent shape of these polymers. Their shape does not impact the oil viscosity at winter temperatures, which allows the oil to flow normally for its weight, but the polymers change shape as they reach 100 degrees Celsius and make the oil behave differently than if these “VII” were not in the oil.
The key thing here is they increase friction in the liquid to compensate for the decrease of viscosity that is caused by the higher temperatures. As the polymers change shape and impact the friction of the oil, this does not mean that a 10w-40 oil is thicker at operating temperature than at winter temperature (and I don’t think that is what ‘byeatts’ is meaning). It simply means that the oil can act like a SAE 40 oil at operating temperature rather than a SAE10 at operating temperature because the polymers changing shape compensate for the decrease in viscosity that is caused by the oils higher temperature. Clearly all grade oils when hot (be that a multigrade 0w-40, 10w30, 15w-50 or straight SAE30, SAE50) will all flow much easier and faster when hot than any and all oils flow when cold (even light oils like 0w-20 or SAE10, etc.)
Byeatts has an interesting theory regarding the temperature of snowbike oil and the temperature at which these polymers are reacting and changing. It is an interesting question. The impact would depend on if that change in the polymer structure is linear by temperature or happens quickly within a small temperature window. All the load tests I’ve seen, such as the very interesting (and very long) 540ratblog.wordpress.com, are performed at operating temperature. It would be very interesting to see the same test done on the same oil at a lower temps. Also interesting would be how quickly the polymer shape change occurs (instantly or a few seconds) because oils quickly change temperatures as they flow through an engine and are exposed to different surfaces/stresses/pressures.
It’s understood that there are two ratings on a multi-viscosity oil; a cold viscosity rating and a hot viscosity rating. Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) developed the scale and, as previously pointed out, the “w” stands for “winter” not “weight”.
Viscosity Index Improvers (typically Polymers and copolymers) are added to lighter grade oils to allow them to behave as a thicker oil at operating temperatures and this is what makes a multi-viscosity oil. The benefit being the quicker flow rate of the light oil at winter temperatures, but once up to operating temperature, the oil behaves like a heavier single grade oil of the same rating. The reason for this is the temperature-dependent shape of these polymers. Their shape does not impact the oil viscosity at winter temperatures, which allows the oil to flow normally for its weight, but the polymers change shape as they reach 100 degrees Celsius and make the oil behave differently than if these “VII” were not in the oil.
The key thing here is they increase friction in the liquid to compensate for the decrease of viscosity that is caused by the higher temperatures. As the polymers change shape and impact the friction of the oil, this does not mean that a 10w-40 oil is thicker at operating temperature than at winter temperature (and I don’t think that is what ‘byeatts’ is meaning). It simply means that the oil can act like a SAE 40 oil at operating temperature rather than a SAE10 at operating temperature because the polymers changing shape compensate for the decrease in viscosity that is caused by the oils higher temperature. Clearly all grade oils when hot (be that a multigrade 0w-40, 10w30, 15w-50 or straight SAE30, SAE50) will all flow much easier and faster when hot than any and all oils flow when cold (even light oils like 0w-20 or SAE10, etc.)
Byeatts has an interesting theory regarding the temperature of snowbike oil and the temperature at which these polymers are reacting and changing. It is an interesting question. The impact would depend on if that change in the polymer structure is linear by temperature or happens quickly within a small temperature window. All the load tests I’ve seen, such as the very interesting (and very long) 540ratblog.wordpress.com, are performed at operating temperature. It would be very interesting to see the same test done on the same oil at a lower temps. Also interesting would be how quickly the polymer shape change occurs (instantly or a few seconds) because oils quickly change temperatures as they flow through an engine and are exposed to different surfaces/stresses/pressures.
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