New iBackshift (Dalton) pDrive primary spring (100-360)

[Dynamo^Joe]

New Dalton pDrive primary spring (100-360)
I wrote a small story on my website...
https://www.ibackshift.com/comersus/...?idProduct=137

Over the last 2 seasons with the help of Dalton we been testing different spring forces, test guys verifying their performance, I made several springs varying between the first load of 85 and the second load at 370.

I would go test the first one and switch back-n-forth sleds (same sled, same clutching, test spring in one sled) to verify the difference in what the test spring does vs the original spring. Then send the springs out to test guys for verification. Test clicker 2, 3, 4, varying weights, ramp profiles, etc but the main objective was to explore...

..."how low can we go" on engagement speed on the N/A and Turbo 850.
...and what benefits would be see from it

I pitched the idea to Dale at Dalton for the values between 90 and 370 but the target was 95-365. Dale's spring company could make the closest at 100-360 with the spring materials and how the spring fits in the pDrive it has to last tens of thousands of cycles and not fail - that was the closest "in forces" he could come to my target. It works mint for people who want lower engagement speed and to keep their final forces in the 355~370 range.

I love summer, but I can't wait to drive my sled again.
Down the road, I'll post a few vid clips of engagement speeds at 22~2300 rpms, crawling through the trees at 27~2800. he he
Joey

 

[XP860]

You Rock Joey! Best in the biz! Thanks for all your help this past winter working with you and making my factory T850 rip like it should with your New Clutch Kit! Cheers buddy

 

[jcjc1]

just ordered one and looking forward to trying it out.

 

[Teth-Air]

I run Dalton in my Polaris. They make a 100/290 that I can't find anywhere else. Really like how it enables for lower clutch weight and still acts like a heavy set up. As the power has increased on sleds over the years the set-ups keep getting heavier and clutch wear results. Good on Dalton for providing options.

 

[Dynamo^Joe]

The root cause of clutch wear is unbalance and/or orbit.
When you dig into the the layers of the onion, eventually you get to the heart of it and can go no further.
The root or heart, where you can go no further is... Unbalance and/or orbit.
If you want to look at it like a building, then a building (like faith ) will not stand, IF have a foundation of sand. The foundation being, the rotating "thing" turns with unbalance and/or an orbit.
There are some clutch weights which by many readers "pre-programmed-prejudice", claim that are heavy, and run with what would be considered normal wear.
In the end, straight crank stub(orbit) and balance(parts same weight), the wear will be normal.

 

[Teth-Air]

The root cause of clutch wear is unbalance and/or orbit.
When you dig into the the layers of the onion, eventually you get to the heart of it and can go no further.
The root or heart, where you can go no further is... Unbalance and/or orbit.
If you want to look at it like a building, then a building (like faith ) will not stand, IF have a foundation of sand. The foundation being, the rotating "thing" turns with unbalance and/or an orbit.
There are some clutch weights which by many readers "pre-programmed-prejudice", claim that are heavy, and run with what would be considered normal wear.
In the end, straight crank stub(orbit) and balance(parts same weight), the wear will be normal.

I agree if a clutch is out of balance it will wear more (especially guide bushings) but even perfectly balanced the bushings in the weights are experiencing more forces with heavier weights and the rollers are seeing higher forces to compress a heavy spring.

 

[donbrown]

Your kits are awesome on our 850's

 

[Dynamo^Joe]

I'm not being a smart-arise, please don't look at it like that...I'm saying as-if I'm standing with you, havin a beer with ya, in your garage, visiting.

.... the weights are experiencing more forces with heavier weights and the rollers are seeing higher forces to compress a heavy spring.

... Yes, more grams is more force. People for some reason cant help themselves to frame what they say where the reader or listener can draw a conclusion that "more grams = more force = more bad"
, this is why my answer to "more grams = more force" is....
... Ok, So!
The inference of "more bad" leads into a debate on the same level as "which can is best"
I can ask a few simple questions that people will not answer, rather they'll just get angry with me because I'm forcing the person to draw a line in the sand so they can't use a convenient answer.

My kits supposedly use "more weight". "more grams=more force=more bad"....... Don't buy my kit(s)

 

[donbrown]

All clutches use weights using centrifical force to engage ... am I missing something?

 

[Dynamo^Joe]

That's a whole other topic that'll destroy this one. Another topic, in another post for another day.

Edited...
Here you go.
Paragraph 3 and 4, starts with "for the parakeets" then stop at first sentence, 4th paragraph @ words "easily rejected"

Clutch weight washers

www.dootalk.com

 

[Teth-Air]

I'm not being a smart-arise, please don't look at it like that...I'm saying as-if I'm standing with you, havin a beer with ya, in your garage, visiting.

... Yes, more grams is more force. People for some reason cant help themselves to frame what they say where the reader or listener can draw a conclusion that "more grams = more force = more bad"
, this is why my answer to "more grams = more force" is....
... Ok, So!
The inference of "more bad" leads into a debate on the same level as "which can is best"
I can ask a few simple questions that people will not answer, rather they'll just get angry with me because I'm forcing the person to draw a line in the sand so they can't use a convenient answer.

My kits supposedly use "more weight". "more grams=more force=more bad"....... Don't buy my kit(s)

Thanks , I respect your knowledge on this subject and your kit component selections, understanding that this post is about Ski-doo. All I was getting at was Dalton makes some good and unique products that we both seem to like. My last clutching experience with Doo was the TRA so my opinion is not relevant regarding your component selection. The P-Drive may need more weight and it's advertised as a no maintenance clutch so bushing wear should not be a factor.

 

[1709]

So this rises a question, does a lighter weight with a lower spring forces have the same force as a heavier weight with higher spring forces? it all has to even out what ever way you go.
higher spring forces need more weight to overcome the spring, now is there an advantage to run lower spring forces and lighter weights then higher spring forces and heavier weights?
and does the rate of a spring play into it? yes lighter clutch and clutch parts will spool up the motor faster then heavy clutches, so why does ski doo run such a heavy clutch? is it to balance the crank? with longer and bigger lug tracks they had to go with lower degree helixes
to get proper backshift, and with lower helix degrees you have to have heavier weights,
that has been the debate for years light weights and light springs with higher degree helix or
heavy weights and heavier springs with low degree helix, now throw in harder belts for higher HP and you need more force on the belt to preveny belt slippage. there is no right answer they will both work, one might be more efficient then the other, lots of ways to skin a cat.

 

[Inthe8s]

So this rises a question, does a lighter weight with a lower spring forces have the same force as a heavier weight with higher spring forces? it all has to even out what ever way you go.
higher spring forces need more weight to overcome the spring, now is there an advantage to run lower spring forces and lighter weights then higher spring forces and heavier weights?
and does the rate of a spring play into it? yes lighter clutch and clutch parts will spool up the motor faster then heavy clutches, so why does ski doo run such a heavy clutch? is it to balance the crank? with longer and bigger lug tracks they had to go with lower degree helixes
to get proper backshift, and with lower helix degrees you have to have heavier weights,
that has been the debate for years light weights and light springs with higher degree helix or
heavy weights and heavier springs with low degree helix, now throw in harder belts for higher HP and you need more force on the belt to preveny belt slippage. there is no right answer they will both work, one might be more efficient then the other, lots of ways to skin a cat.

From what I have found out over the years is always have liked the heavier spring and weight combo, with a lower gear, but after seeing the Pdrive after 2 seasons with monster weights in them it defiantly wears on the double rollers and will need to be serviced sooner then later with this " skinned cat"......
I do grease the tip rollers every season just to push out the old and pump in some new lube.... just my .02

 

[1709]

Are you talking about the double sheave rollers not the rollers that the ramps roll on?
I think the after market are going to make some double rollers that will be better then stock.

 

[Dynamo^Joe]

But but but, im running these "supposed" monster weights. I run 102 grams and only once have I had sticky vespel (grey) rollers and I cleaned them, and the axles with chlorinated brake kleen and they spin freely after that.
The reason for that material use (Grey vespel) is because Vespel distorts the least in dimension under high temperatures. The reason one will see resistance (thats the roller bore distortion) is because of a gummed up roller axle. The tolerances are tight between the roller/axle fit, so IF there is foreign material build up to smear and streak the roller bore, THEN the roller seizes on the axle and roller skids up and down the spider ways.
Regularly clean your clutches and their wear parts and your wear parts will last as long as mine do and/or have done.

 

[1709]

Replacement Roller for P-Drive Clutch

Build a cafe racer, scrambler, street tracker, and hardtail bobber with basic tools and skills. The custom motorcycle kits include all parts and require no welding.

www.rycamotors.com

 

[Dynamo^Joe]

Those are the same ones you get from a skidoo dealer. Far as I was told, Team-Ind makes parts of the pDrive, assembles them for BRP, supplies the vespel rollers for them.
If you buy a Venom roller, you are buying a BRP roller which is a "Dupont Vespel" roller. Comes from the same "bin" and distributed to whoever.
I can sell you the same ones as im a Venom dealer too. aAaAaAaAaaaa.....

 

[1709]

Joe, good info, they should last quit awhile, if you keep your clutch clean.

 

[1709]

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=354136132273645&extid=XJ5uCDc0e5aAPegi

 

[1709]

Those are the same ones you get from a skidoo dealer. Far as I was told, Team-Ind makes parts of the pDrive, assembles them for BRP, supplies the vespel rollers for them.
If you buy a Venom roller, you are buying a BRP roller which is a "Dupont Vespel" roller. Comes from the same "bin" and distributed to whoever.
I can sell you the same ones as im a Venom dealer too. aAaAaAaAaaaa.....

Joe according to this website, Vespel® comes standard in the RS600 race drive clutches.
so does that mean they only are in the RS600 race drive clutches from BRP? and would be an upgrade for the other clutches?